The Cellar

The Cellar (http://cellar.org/index.php)
-   Technology (http://cellar.org/forumdisplay.php?f=7)
-   -   Not Quite a Death Ray, But... (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=13171)

Elspode 01-25-2007 08:42 AM

Not Quite a Death Ray, But...
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070125/...e_us/ray_gun_4

Quote:

MOODY AIR FORCE BASE, Ga. - The military calls its new weapon an "active denial system," but that's an understatement. It's a ray gun that shoots a beam that makes people feel as if they are about to catch fire.

Apart from causing that terrifying sensation, the technology is supposed to be harmless _ a non-lethal way to get enemies to drop their weapons.

Military officials say it could save the lives of innocent civilians and service members in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

The weapon is not expected to go into production until at least 2010, but all branches of the military have expressed interest in it, officials said.

During the first media demonstration of the weapon Wednesday, airmen fired beams from a large dish antenna mounted atop a Humvee at people pretending to be rioters and acting out other scenarios that U.S. troops might encounter in war zones.

The device's two-man crew located their targets through powerful lenses and fired beams from more than 500 yards away. That is nearly 17 times the range of existing non-lethal weapons, such as rubber bullets.

Anyone hit by the beam immediately jumped out of its path because of the sudden blast of heat throughout the body. While the 130-degree heat was not painful, it was intense enough to make the participants think their clothes were about to ignite.

"This is one of the key technologies for the future," said Marine Col. Kirk Hymes, director of the non-lethal weapons program at Quantico, Va., which helped develop the new weapon. "Non-lethal weapons are important for the escalation of force, especially in the environments our forces are operating in."

The system uses electromagnetic millimeter waves, which can penetrate only 1/64th of an inch of skin, just enough to cause discomfort. By comparison, microwaves used in the common kitchen appliance penetrate several inches of flesh.

The millimeter waves cannot go through walls, but they can penetrate most clothing, officials said. They refused to comment on whether the waves can go through glass.

The weapon could be mounted aboard ships, airplanes and helicopters, and routinely used for security or anti-terrorism operations.

"There should be no collateral damage to this," said Senior Airman Adam Navin, 22, of Green Bay, Wis., who has served several tours in Iraq.

Navin and two other airmen were role players in Wednesday's demonstration. They and 10 reporters who volunteered were shot with the beams. The beams easily penetrated various layers of winter clothing.

The system was developed by the military, but the two devices currently being evaluated were built by defense contractor Raytheon.

Airman Blaine Pernell, 22, of suburban New Orleans, said he could have used the system during his four tours in Iraq, where he manned watchtowers around a base near Kirkuk. He said Iraqis constantly pulled up and faked car problems so they could scout out U.S. forces.

"All we could do is watch them," he said. But if they had the ray gun, troops "could have dispersed them."
All potential protesters and rioters are advised to place a couple of Orville Redenbacher microwave packages in each pocket before heading out to the fray. Its a quick and easy lunch, and fun for the whole riot!

yesman065 01-25-2007 08:46 AM

Thanks for that mental image Els - People jumpin and running all the while popcorn poppin and flyin.:shocking:

glatt 01-25-2007 08:54 AM

This could be a useful tool, but I fear the potential for abuse is very high. If it doesn't injure anyone, I think we'll see it being used on a lot of people indiscriminately. Since it causes a "terrifying sensation," each one of those people will then hate the US. They should call this the "enemy ray." Anyone you zap with it will become your enemy.

xoxoxoBruce 01-25-2007 10:10 AM

Quote:

Since it causes a "terrifying sensation," each one of those people will then hate the US
Hate us? They will most likely be us.:(

Bush's loaded courts will probably let them go crazy with non-lethal methods, Tazer for crowds or small groups.

glatt 01-25-2007 10:32 AM

1 Attachment(s)
.

Pie 01-25-2007 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesman065 (Post 310181)
Thanks for that mental image Els - People jumpin and running all the while popcorn poppin and flyin.:shocking:


Spinnin' and poppin', spinnin' and poppin'.

Ronald Cherrycoke 01-25-2007 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesman065 (Post 310181)
Thanks for that mental image Els - People jumpin and running all the while popcorn poppin and flyin.:shocking:


A microwaveable "Oscar Meyer Weenier" also brings bad thoughts to my mind...OUCH!

Happy Monkey 01-26-2007 09:46 AM

Does it cause arcing in metal? Glasses, zippers, belts giving third degree burns, destruction of personal electronics like cell phones, hearing aids, pacemakers?

Beestie 01-26-2007 09:50 AM

On the surface, the idea of a weapon that can subdue a large group of people without really hurting them is a good thing.

But on the other side, there are some sick fuckers working for the military who sit around all day coming up with stuff like this - and other stuff that we don't hear about.

Griff 01-26-2007 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt (Post 310215)
.

mounted on a hummer.... it'll never get where it needs to go

Kitsune 01-26-2007 10:26 AM

Quote:

The system uses electromagnetic millimeter waves, which can penetrate only 1/64th of an inch of skin, just enough to cause discomfort. By comparison, microwaves used in the common kitchen appliance penetrate several inches of flesh.
A system that burns people with microwave radiation? Yeah, I can't see this possibly causing any long term harm.

Shawnee123 01-26-2007 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie (Post 310486)
But on the other side, there are some sick fuckers working for the military who sit around all day coming up with stuff like this - and other stuff that we don't hear about.

Ain't that the truth!

wolf 01-26-2007 01:43 PM

If they could make people actually catch fire, rather than thinking they might, they might have something there.

yesman065 01-26-2007 02:27 PM

Yeah really - you deal with enough people just thinkin that -eh Wolf?

Griff 01-26-2007 02:30 PM

I guess this weapon is a statement that we will continue to misuse our military?

Shawnee123 01-26-2007 02:41 PM

channeling my hippie self
 
What if people held a war and no one came?

;)

Undertoad 01-26-2007 02:41 PM

What statement would you take another way, other than "have a nice day"?

Elspode 01-26-2007 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawnee123 (Post 310611)
What if people held a war and no one came?

;)

As screwed up as this world is, *someone's* going to come if there's a war. Probably twice, and without lube, too.

Elspode 01-26-2007 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey (Post 310482)
Does it cause arcing in metal? Glasses, zippers, belts giving third degree burns, destruction of personal electronics like cell phones, hearing aids, pacemakers?

Yes...if you turn it up to 11.

Griff 01-26-2007 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspode (Post 310654)
As screwed up as this world is, *someone's* going to come if there's a war. Probably twice, and without lube, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaggieL (Post 310640)
He did get some stick time enroute.

Now it begins to make sense.

The statement is: We will continue to use our military to control civilian populations rather than for doables like killing people and breaking stuff. Remember when Clinton was an idiot for getting us mixed up in Somalian politics...

Elspode 01-26-2007 08:07 PM

It wasn't just that. He got a blowjob in the Oval Office, for crying out loud. I mean, talk about trampling on the flag...

xoxoxoBruce 01-27-2007 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey (Post 310482)
Does it cause arcing in metal? Glasses, zippers, belts giving third degree burns, destruction of personal electronics like cell phones, hearing aids, pacemakers?

Unfortunately, I don't think they care. :(

xoxoxoBruce 01-27-2007 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf (Post 310576)
If they could make people actually catch fire, rather than thinking they might, they might have something there.

Or set off any ammo they're carrying. :worried:

MaggieL 01-27-2007 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt (Post 310183)
This could be a useful tool, but I fear the potential for abuse is very high. If it doesn't injure anyone, I think we'll see it being used on a lot of people indiscriminately.

Gee, If this was a "banning firearms" thread, we'd be hearing all about how non-lethal weapons should be preferred for self-defense.

xoxoxoBruce 01-27-2007 06:57 PM

Go back and look at the picture. Hardly something you can put in your purse, so that leaves it to groups with authority and no fashion sense.

There is potential for great abuse, like preventing citizens from exercising their right of peaceful assembly (read protesting) .....without them even knowing who is doing it.

This thing is here, it's not going to be uninvented. But it's a worrisome weapon, because it can be used illegally with no evidence that would be needed to to take anyone to task for violating your rights. :(

NoBoxes 01-28-2007 06:36 AM

Sounds like a failed weapons system that they're trying to find another use for. If it had been powerful enough to sweep roads ahead of a convoy and detonate IEDs it might of had a more practical use. :)

Even back in the '80s, US Special Forces "A" Teams were trained in how to close on and destroy microwave based ground detection systems (like the ones we sold to Iran) without getting fried. I went through that program which uses actual working systems set up on a US installation. I don't see the item depicted here as being useful for much more than civilian crowd control when there is an element of surprise. :eek:

OTOH, if it's legal for riot control purposes, shouldn't it be legal for interrogation? Perhaps prolonged exposure to the effects of this device could replace waterboarding! :thepain:

Kind of makes you go Hmmmm. :litebulb:

skysidhe 01-28-2007 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesman065 (Post 310181)
Thanks for that mental image Els - People jumpin and running all the while popcorn poppin and flyin.:shocking:


hehe yep. :) I see it too!

Kitsune 01-28-2007 08:12 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I'm showing up dressed like this to my next protest, just in case.

It'd be cool if I'd arc nicely.

MaggieL 01-28-2007 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitsune (Post 311049)
I'm showing up dressed like this to my next protest, just in case.

It'd be cool if I'd arc nicely.

Or just possibly the whole business might act as a waveguide to contain the part of the beam that hits your face.

Alternative possibility: The highly conductive foil heats up and melts.

Bonus Darwin Award points: It catches fire. (cf. HMS Sheffield and early versions of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle)

rkzenrage 01-28-2007 10:25 PM

It can be turned up to kill... they are just saying that they are not going to use it that way. I call BS.

Clodfobble 01-29-2007 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage
It can be turned up to kill... they are just saying that they are not going to use it that way. I call BS.

If it is BS, so what? If there's one thing the military has a lot of, it's ways to kill people. The only thing that makes this one different is it also has the possibility of being used with less than lethal force.

rkzenrage 01-29-2007 12:30 PM

The problem is that they are lying to the press. They are stating that it is a non-lethal weapon, an outright lie.
This should NEVER be allowed to be used against Americans, in ANY form.
They are talking about it.

Clodfobble 01-29-2007 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage
This should NEVER be allowed to be used against Americans, in ANY form.

So you are against the use of rubber bullets as a non-lethal weapon, since the guns that fire them could also in theory fire real bullets?

Kitsune 01-29-2007 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage (Post 311296)
This should NEVER be allowed to be used against Americans, in ANY form.

This is sadly amusing. Why? Because the United States effectively can use chemical agents on its own citizens, but not others.

Quote:

...but as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld acknowledged in Congressional testimony the other day, the use of riot-control agents and other substances designed to incapacitate people without causing death or lasting injury violates international law - specifically, the 1993 Chemical Weapons Convention.

"In many instances, our forces are allowed to shoot somebody and kill them, but they're not allowed to use a nonlethal riot-control agent," Mr. Rumsfeld complained to lawmakers. Some find it ironic, if not incomprehensible, that under the Chemical Weapons Convention, civilian police forces may use chemicals to put down riots but military units may not fire them at enemy soldiers.
Maybe this is the non-chemical solution they've been looking for?

Elspode 01-29-2007 12:53 PM

This whole thing would be a moot point if people would just do what they're told to do when they're told to do it.

Freedom. Hmpf. I'll let you know when you're free.

rkzenrage 01-29-2007 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 311298)
So you are against the use of rubber bullets as a non-lethal weapon, since the guns that fire them could also in theory fire real bullets?

That is a ridiculous attempt at a parrallel... not even close to the same thing.
It would be if the rubber could be turned to steel half-way to the target.
& no, they should not be used, people have been killed by rubber bullets. Non-lethal means NON-LETHAL.

Kitsune 01-29-2007 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey (Post 310482)
Does it cause arcing in metal? Glasses, zippers, belts giving third degree burns, destruction of personal electronics like cell phones, hearing aids, pacemakers?

Odd, they didn't see any metal caused burns in testing. I wonder why?

Quote:

...volunteers played the part of rioters or intruders and the ADS was used to drive them away. The experimenters banned glasses and contact lenses to prevent possible eye damage to the subjects, and in the second and third tests removed any metallic objects such as coins and keys to stop hot spots being created on the skin. They also checked the volunteers' clothes for certain seams, buttons and zips which might also cause hot spots.
The lesson: if you want to protest/riot, make sure you have good uncorrected eyesight and dump the coins. Do this and you'll never be hurt by this weap-- err, crowd control device.

Quote:

One person suffered a burn in a previous test when the beam was accidentally used on the wrong power setting.
...unless someone bumps the knob by "accident".

Elspode 01-29-2007 01:23 PM

Tin soldiers and heat rays comin'
We're finally on our own
This summer I hear the hummin'
Four fried in Ohio.

Gotta get down to it
Soldiers are burnin' us down
Should have been done long ago
What would you do if you
Found her charred on the ground?
How will you run when you know?

rkzenrage 02-01-2007 10:37 AM

BTW guys, I need to know the names of the orgs that protest the most. Organize the large scale protests in the US, like against the World Bank and the like. Please let me know if you do.
Got a lil' sum'in' sum'in' for em'.

rkzenrage 02-03-2007 08:45 PM

I found a site that is a clearing-house for most of the protestable "issues"... I think I am ready to take the next step.
I really do.
I e-mailed them to contact me.
I believe that my invention will make this device unusable in the US, if they decide to try it on citizens.
Still have not completely decided... kinda' feel sick inside, not sure where it is coming from.
My nation run by traitors or really thinking about making this decision.

Ibby 02-04-2007 08:31 PM

Whats the invention?


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:14 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.