City in Texas ...to keep out illegal immigrants,
 

I thought that was a bit extreme, then I read:

Now I have gone back to my original stance, illegal is illegal, become a citizen now, get a legal visa or out.

Oh, can we keep this on-topic please, this is a legal issue, not a racial one. It has never been about race and is not now.

Just how are they getting their numbers, I wonder.

rkzenrage, did you take a look at grassfire.org's website to see what they're all about?

Broken Borders, near the bottom of the page. It's not going to get better by itself. :(

Why was it that people were shouting that it was the fault of businesses who hired illegal immigrants that they come here and the landlords that knowingly rent to them, and now that communities are doing something about this from the ground up it's being decried???
I also have major issues with the legal Mexican and latino citizens here who protest these laws on the grounds of discrimination or anything like that. It has nothing to do with race, only legal status. Nobody should say they are being 'alienated' because illegal aliens of their race are now having the law applied to them.

And so the price of American grocery store produce increased 20% or more because America needs 1,800,000 immigrant workers and will only license 29,000 - due to racist laws.

Meanwhile, some should first learn facts. Massive increases in crime are occurring in Central America because America exports its gang crimes to those nations. Central America did not create the Bloods and Crypts. These are another American export.

But when emotion replaces 'first learning facts', then the myths claim crime is from illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants were recently rounded up in Swift packing factories. Why did those illegals have jobs? Because they all pay into Social Security and pay withholding taxes - that remain unclaimed. Reality is that illegals mean more money for government - a profit. But again, hate and emotion ignores reality to claim illegal immigrants live off American services.

The problem is that America needs million of legal immigrants. The only reason they must be illegal - we stupidly restrict the number using racist (emotional) reasons. But then if we made them legal, government would have to refund their withholding tax money. Then illegals would be granted what they deserve. Better to just call them nigger scum; take social security and taxes from them. Once that was called discrimination when people could see the difference between facts verses bias and hate.

America desperately needs those immigrants. A smarter America would eliminate silly numerical restrictions that make them illegal - that make them have to turn to criminals for support.

How many do you employ tw?

How would I know. Illegal pay social security and taxes just like everyone else. But I will know when the government starts cracking down on illegals. Suddenly the town goes into recession. Business close. Factories move. And the exist white radical start proclaiming their skin head rights as 'true' Americans. Funny. The town was only productive when it had so many illegal immigrats. Ahhh but who needs to be confuse with facts and reality. We have new wave skinheads and our emotions to set us right.

Don't worry, we won't confuse facts with your reality. :p

I looked at the front page, basically just wanting the strict enforcing of existing laws. I see no problem with that.

From FOX News
:( And tw claims they are all paying SS and income tax.

Umm.....how many murders are committed by average, legal citizens and how many of the child abuse cases don't involve an illegal immigrant? Since these things tend to go hand in hand with every large grouping of people, I'm guessing any increase of population, legal or illegal, is going to push up those stats. Do we have some kind of comparitor?

Again, I can only see it in simplistic terms - if they are illegal (regardless of race, colour, background) they should not be living and working in the country.

If America needs them, it will learn pretty fast and can increase the number allowed to enter legally.

I do understand it is difficult to police the borders and monitor the situation, but I can't see why anyone would have a problem with a country that upheld its own laws - I certainly do not see that as racist.

Well then the quotas were increased using that logic. But instead, the US has made legal entry to this country so difficult that even science conferences and applicants for advanced education are going elsewhere - those numbers in America are even dropping. Once America had no fear of foreigners. Suddenly they are all evil? Welcome to Fox News 'hype and fear' that promotes all these myths about illegal immigrants.

If they were not needed, then why do they so routinely and quckly find jobs? And why does massive enforcement of immigration laws only result in recession?

Yes, there have been times in our history when there was less fear of foreigners, but overall, it runs in cycles.

For a perspective "from the other side," I highly recommend to everyone the documentary Wetback. Gives a painfully clear idea of how complicated and far-reaching the issue really is.

It is not racist...
I also do not see how this is "too far" when it is just asking cops to do their job, enforcing existing laws. Just ignorant.
I can see the day where people say, "I wonder if we should let those cops arrest those buglers or not, hmmmmmm?"
There is no need to pass any new, more strict laws, perform illegal search and seizures, break anyone's civil rights (they are not citizens), or anything like that... just enforce current law as it exists. If people don't like it, they need to lobby for change, just like I do through NORMAL for change to marijuana law. I don't advocate circumventing the law to achieve those goals, I advocate changing them. The illegal market and culture for it harms this nation, just like illegal immigrants harm this nation.

I don't think it is about "fear" I think it is about wanting those who are in this nation to be here legally and to comply with this wishes of this government.
As for myself, I grew-up in the citrus industry, have been the foreman for many crews of those some would call "wetbacks". So, I have intimate knowledge of that culture... no ignorance, or fear, here and I still feel the way I do. All in this nation need to comply with immigration laws or leave. It is not personal, some are even members of my family now, some I call friend, I don't look at it on an individual basis, this is a legal issue and NOTHING else. Those that try to make it something else are just trying to confuse the issue to try to keep their side alive because the lobby is not as strong as they would like, IMO.

It is a great red herring to show how terrible it is to come here "so many die, the wages are so much lower, they get robbed, they don't see their families when they want because they can't cross back and forth, etc, etc, etc...". Then we get the whole American Guilt about how we pay them less when they are here, even though that harms us and our market by driving American wages down, so it actually is them harming us.
The truth of it is, if they came here legally they would not deal with all the terrible things they went through, they would be paid American salaries (good for them, good for us) and they could visit their families as they wished, and my final point (get your flame keyboard ready) is that if things are so damn bad in their nation they should stay there and make it better for everyone like Americans did in the depression and other hard times. Corruption? Run for office or start a revolution. Behind, become a scientist... though I believe Mexico is not behind in that respect. You get the picture. As I have stated elsewhere, there is not a nation anywhere where the people cannot remove the government if they deem.
Finally, those from Central America are not the only illegal immigrants and it does not matter who they are... if they are breaking the law. Here in FL we have a real problem with illegal Canadians, lot of taxes lost, they need to comply with the law. No hate, no racism, no xenophobia, just law. Why is this such a difficult thing to accept?

Those are deaths that could be caused by honest American citizens, too. Not only are illegal aliens taking our jobs, but they're taking away our victims! Something must be done.

*chuckles*

i say make it a lot easier to come in legally. and then inforce immigration laws without fail. i say if you're caught in the US illegally once you get a bus ticket to mexico city. (even if you're from canada) if you get caught twice we fly you back and drop you on mexico city. every third person gets a parachute. if you get caught a third time. ah, screw it - you should be shot for being stupid.

I'm sure alot of politicians would jump at the chance to ease immigration laws. It's the quickest way to make a problem go away in their minds, just scratch out the rule that says it's their responsibility. At one time or another someone wrote the current laws for a reason, whoever is responsible for reform needs to look at when and why these laws were written the way they are. If the reasons still hold then we shouldn't change the laws, and if they do, well someone'd better put some serious thought into it.

Very well put 9th.

No, no, no.......if they do that, they'll lose a political rally point that's right up there with abortion and gay marriage....... and more importantly, tw will have to shell out more for his veggies. :smack:

illegal immigrants has become synonymous with illegal mexican now?

well yes, a dumb question I suppose.

I am for educating immigrants in english, manners and customs because there is a small place in my town where they seem to have none of the above.


Oh and how to weed out the criminals who think this is the wild wild west? How does one arrest someone that dosn't exsist on paper?

Hell, in FL, people don't even have to be immigrants to be ignorant of the English language, manners and customs.
Plenty who have been born and raised here can't speak a lick of the language.
Even though I can speak pidgin Spanish and am learning more... I will only speak English to them. There is NO excuse for someone to be in a country for any number of years and not know the language.

But Florida ain't in England, and I really don't see the problem with being ignorant of 'English' manners and customs (no offense to our Brit friends). In the U.S., you may consider your particular manners and customs to be 'normal,' but to someone with a different cultural background--of which the U.S. is made up of many--your behavior may come off as inappropriate.

"Inappropriate" how?

English is the language spoken here - I don't think anyone is insisting on British manners or customs. It's not inappropriate to expect people to learn the common language of the country when they've decided to make this their permanent home.

The multi-cultural experiment in Canada is something that people here should take a careful look at before rejecting the melting pot. Official multiculturalism in Canada was idealistic in its original intent - respect for different backgrounds, cultures, mores, and manners, and the hope that people retaining their 'heritage' would all live harmoniously and cooperatively together. In practice, the policy has balkanized Canada, with many cultural groups competing for government resources and pushing political agendas that have little to do with Canada's wellbeing as a country. There isn't a sense of what Canada is (other than NOT AMERICA - anti-American hatred is probably the sole unifying principle there) or of where the country should be going. No one is required or even expected to learn either of the country's official languages. This creates havoc when people have to interact with the government, attempt to obtain health care, etc. Toronto has been trying to figure out how to provide 911 services in hundreds of different languages. Not possible!

In the end, I think it's important for immigrants to a new country to be willing to embrace that country's language and general culture. Every country needs a reasonable degree of cohesiveness on these things, or it will eventually fragment.

Who is suggesting we reject the melting pot? I have yet to see anyone state that we should discourage legal immigration.
As someone who is fascinated and studies other culture's religions, foods and morays, I respect them far more than most common Americans.
American "culture" is made-up of a consensus of many cultures, and it will continue to do that... so I could care less if anyone adopts "US Culture".
They just need to learn the language and laws.
Our documents, courts, signs, schools and business needs to conducted in one language, our laws have to be understood and there is only one way to be sure that is happening.
Other than that, dress, eat, worship and live as you like, within the law.

I haven't seen anyone state that we should discourage legal immigration either, nor have I said that.

My point was that a country with no cohesive culture and an emphasis on its residents thinking of themselves as belonging to some other society first does not function well as a nation. I disagree that all that immigrants need is to know the language and laws. If there is no common sense of identity and purpose, a society will not achieve anything of value; it will pull itself apart.

America was built on disparate and different communities, each of which had a foot in their old world and a foot in their new world. It's what (imo) made you the strong and vibrant nation that you now are.

And yet that was America for most of the 20th Century. Why do you think every city has a little Italy, a China town, etc? Why do you think ethnic groups tended towards same jobs - Irish cops? America was very ethnically divided and yet still functioned as one nation, indivisible, etc.

We are beginning to see cultural losses. Deep southern drawls and the New England Yankee accent (ie in John Kennedy's speeches) are significantly diminished. Somehow we forget how ethnically and culturally divided and yet so united was this nation called America even 60 years ago. Part of the American experience was discovering someone so culturally different - and yet he was also another of us.

The abbreviation for America is US - the we who are so different.

There is one factor though. Back then, the need for English was considered necessary to be an American. We have another problem. The grandchildren sometimes cannot talk to the grandparents. Political hype associated with why all should speak English gets lost when delivered to the immigrant. A grandparent who wants to be able to talk to his own grandkids - he should appreciate that consequence of not learning English.

Such more important facts are often lost when others worry about this 'them and us' attitude in America.

One final problem directly traceable to an America that now fears immigrants and therefore must import immigrants illegally. Those immigrants do not come with the attitude of staying. Why would they? They are not welcome. That is clear. Those immigrants who end up staying are basically told, "Don't bother learning English. You are not staying." Simply by increasing the 29,000 per year number to 2 million per year means that person will need to speak English. He is staying. He need not hide in an only Spanish community. He is now coming to America for the same reasons so many did in 1900s.

Why should they even bother to speak English when they must hide in Spanish neighborhoods - when they will never be welcome? Just another problem created by the 'we fear all immigrant' attitudes.

American that was united was never so homogenous. Why should we expect all to conform to one culture? That was never America before.

Maybe 'cohesive culture' wasn't a very accurate term for me to use ... I was thinking more of a cohesive vision, a common idea, and a commitment to the new country. That doesn't preclude retaining aspects of one's former culture, it just means not keeping one's former country first in one's loyalty and commitment. I agree that a country can benefit greatly from the positive contributions of other cultures.

I have no idea why you think that 'America ... now fears immigrants and therefore must import immigrants illegally'. The first clause isn't true and the second doesn't make sense. America welcomes legal immigrants and has the right to enforce her own laws.

Maybe because we make immigration so difficult that legal immigration takes a year plus. Maybe because even science conferences are leaving the US because just to get papers to participate - 3 months - often longer. We so fear foreigners that universities now suffer something like a 20% reduction is good students. We now fear as if that will solve the problem - that the administration quashed attempt after attempt to stop what became known as 11 September. We did not address the problem - 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management.

We need 1.8 million just to harvest the crops. We so fear immigrants as to only permit 29,000 in legally.

It is probably coincidence. But now that farms are so short of qualified (immigrant) labor, they now have E Coli problems? Probably only coincidence - or maybe god sending a message to the rest of us who don't know how much we now fear all foreigners. Even the Dubai Ports deal had nothing to do with security. That too is fear even of our closest allies.

Bullshit, I have uncles and an aunt that are from Hispanic countries that came here legally, learned to speak English (one is a teacher and still in college) and none live in Spanish/or immigrant communities. My cousins all speak Spanish and English, retaining their heritage, while loving their nation and being raised American patriots. It takes patience and work, that is all.
Farms choose to hire illegals... they do not have to. This is something I know about.

Proof positive. :lol2:

orthodoc says "we" as in we the people. tw says "we" as in the nation/legislature/bureaucrats/laws. tw's "we" doesn't always jibe with the feelings or wishes of orthodoc's "we".

In the case of the laws, bureaucrats are resistant to change, any change, and there hasn't been an impetus to update immigration laws as the problem was being circumvented by ignoring the law. The bureaucrats like that just fine because that means no work for them.
But the result of that attitude is they have lost control of the very reasons there are laws in the first place.

Aside but pertinant.... My personal observation is that Hispanics, especially the young men, are proud bordering on arrogant....very macho, and tend to be in your face with their heritage. That's annoying to us old farts and colors our view of the Hispanic community, right or wrongly.

Our country was founded with immigrants. WE are all decedents of immigrants. As a society we must have some commonalities to flourish and yet revel in our differences - thats what makes this country so great! The idea that everyone already here has to conform to their, the immigrants, customs or languages - or whatever is counterproductive and nonsensical. They can, and should, embrace their own uniqueness, but need to understand that they are coming here! And in their desire to come here there are some requirements - laws, taxes and learning to speak, read and write our language. I welcome them just as my ancestors were welcomed, but you gotta pay a price. After all, its a priveledge - not a right.