Muslims in Sweden
 

Been meaning to post this for a while to see reaction but xoxoxoBruce's thread gave me the needed kick in the ass.

I first saw this video almost two years ago. Given the source I was very skeptical. So I asked a Swede who went to college with me (he'd not spent much time in Sweden for a few years) about it. He hadn't heard a thing about it. So natually I thought it was just FOX trying to hype up its viewers. Not that FOX has ever distorted anything before. Fair and balanced of course :greenface

Then a couple weeks ago I came upon this article: Muslims rule major Swedish City¹. So I asked another Swede, this time one who lives near Malmö. He said there was a lot of truth to it. Not all the immigrants were to blame of course but there were more problems because of them. He even admitted there are areas you just don't go unless you want to be beaten.

Of course any calls for restraint or integration are met with accusations of racism or Nazi sympathy. So the people are largely "Bushed" into accepting it. Despite those tactics the "racist" party to finish up 3rd in the most recent voting. My friend said that was pretty unheard of.

After some more googling I came across this article: Race in Scandinavia. It's pretty comprehensive and should probably be mandatory reading for anybody trying to understand what's going on over there.

I probably shouldn't need to remind any Cellarites of this either: Muslim Protests Against Cartoons Spread.

Some things to think about when thinking of burkas being banned.

¹ The English translations on the page are summaries of the article.

There is obviously a problem, but I don't think the way people dress is the real problem. It's just a symbol of it.

footnotes!
 

Where does the problem begin and where does it end? Would having them learn the language of the country be racist? Would havng them go to the same school be racist? Disallowing arranged marriages? I don't think the way people dress is a real problem (in general) either but in this case the dress often goes along with fundamentalist religion. I suspect the Dutch are wary of burkas due to the stories coming out of Scandinavia.

When you talk about culture and religion - two thoughts that go hand in hand - you're talking about a way of life.

There are many sub cultures which are in my mind fairly unsavoury such as the surfy culture, or skin heads, however, I'm not going to tell one bunch not to shave their heads or the others to get a haircut simply because I find it unpleasant. I might suggest that the surfers get a job though, or that the skinheads stop being racist.

My point is, there's the philosophy of the religion and there's the practice of the culture. Practicing the culture doesn't harm anyone ergo, the dress of that particular culture isn't the problem. The philosophy of the religion may be, and that's the issue to address, not the dress code.

It's a problem when the religion tells the culture to be violent. ;)

All members of the religion are not violent and do not interpret the religion to tell them to be violent.

I have discussed this at length with a workmate who happens to be muslim, from south africa originally.

He's a very nice person and doesn't mind it when I ask him if he'd like to come to the races and get pissed with me on the weekend. In fact, he laughs and jokes in return.

His children are beautiful and well mannered and respectful but also lively and are inquisitive about all sorts of things.

I had a discussion with him last week about Ramadan and fasting and it was enlightening for me, especially since I'd asked him if he lost any weight during Rhamadan.

OK, that's one. I know two so we've got three. How many billion left?
Just kidding, but the the problems in Sweden are not being caused by anyone we know.

We do know, however, there is a segment of radical muslims that are a problem in many countries. Their culture is driven by their clerics and very dangerous to children and other living things.:worried:

Maybe so Bruce, but even if this is true, I still think it is a deprivation of human rights and civil liberty to tell people they may not wear a particular type of veil.

I think that all those Muslims who want to come to our countries should just SHUT UP and work and feel grateful that we are so nice to them considering the appalling violence of their religion .

*speechless*

So, by your logic, Buddug...

You should be kept out of just about every nation between Morrocco and India. You appallingly violent, dangerous, fundamentalist, scary, non-assimilating christians have invaded the holy land too many times to be trusted! You're responsible for such terrible, terrorist organizations as the NRA, KKK, and even the Nazi party! You disgusting, appalling Christians treat everyone who isn't christian like cockroaches!

I'm not sure about Sweden but Norway has very strict immigration rules - unless you're a minority. What I'm saying is the countries don't have to let anybody in. It's like a business in a way. If a store here said no burkas allowed they could deny you access. Same thing with a country. They own the land and decide what goes. We may not agree with it but that's what elections are for.

True enough.....a segment. There's also a segment amongst white western cultures that are equally dangerous. Long before Moslems set off bombs on London buses, a far right group 'recruited' a young British man who was 'trained by them' to build nail bombs and then launched a vicious series of attacks on gay pubs in London.

There are dangerous, subversive and damaging elements in all societies. When the 'London Nail-Bomber' as he became known was caught, we didn't hear politicians telling us to root out the extremists.

I think it would be foolish to deny that there are some dangerous fringes amongst Moslem communities. It is equaly foolish to characterise all Moslems as dangerous. I know plenty of moslems who consider themselves as British as I am. They practically queued up in London to condemn the actions of the bombers. Note: there were moslems killed in the London attacks and the New York attacks. This is about a particular group of terrorists who are moslem, it's not about all moslems.

What percentage dictates the fringe? Or what defines it? Cuz it sounds like there is a lot of fringe in Sweden.

The fringe tends to be what we hear about. Who's interested in people just going about their day-to-day lives, washing up, making tea and trying to get their kids into a good school?

I am but over here we don't exactly get Swedish news delivered to our doorstep :P

I'm just curious because the fringe has managed to do quite a bit there. Or else those who aren't in the fringe aren't doing much to dissuade the fringe. If the fringe were roundly condemned I doubt there would be this many problems.

How could you tell, anyway? The Swedes are freakin' weird as it is . . .

Disclaimer: I'm married to one

I don't know about the European experience, but that's one of the arguments against illegal Mexican, Central & South American immigrants to The United States being "forced" to learn English.

Our fault for not legislating a national language, I suppose, but stupid anyway.

It's one thing to allow people to do business in whatever language they want, it's another thing entirely to think that we need to pay for translators to wait on their hand and foot so that they don't need to learn how to communicate with us.

I very much doubt translators wait on their hands and feet:P

I can't understand why we have to bend to the will of foreign students. The building we live in is about 50% foreign students. Some of them have complained about my pick up, and some of of our neighbors Harley's, we have been told to park elsewhere. Last summer Keryx and I went to the beach, we were dressed appropriately, but we offended some clown because Keryx was not covered properly. I hope he enjoys his life in his Muslim country.

Diversity is all well and good, but it's not particularly valuable for its own sake. It needs to stimulate the existing culture and improve the current situation, not create new demands and problems. That's why food and clothing (for the most part) don't really need regulation, but communication issues are critical. If someone can't speak the native lanugage then they can't get an education, get paperwork such as drivers licences, or communicate with people like doctors. Who learns whos language depends on which party is moving into a preexisiting system, if you come to me then you speak my language, if I go to you then I speak yours.
Melting pot or not, all immigrants must become American in at least some sense of the word. It's not ok to just transplant a little section of your home country here and pretend you're there. That's why I don't have any tollerence for the Mexican or Cuban immigrants who come here expecting to sap our economy to send money back to their country.
Immigrant Muslims in Sweden can keep their old customs as long as they still allow them to be productive members of Swedish society, if not then they should really go somewhere they fit into better. It is the newcommers responsibility to prove he has a reason to be here and an ability to add something useful of his own, not the other way around.

Excellent points!

Unless of course you are British. British people have no right to make that argument as we are almost uniformly unwilling to learn anybody else's language. Our usual strategy if moving to a foreign land, is to find out where all the other British people live and set up camp as near to where we can reasonably expect to purchase a cooked English breakfast as we possibly can. The next stage in our assimilation is to learn how to pronounce a couple of necessary words to allow us to travel between british enclaves within that country, avoid any real contact with the locals other than in a service capacity, get homesick after about eight years and move back home.

Is this your personal experience or your armchair perception of the British experience? It definitely is not my family's experience. They emigrated from Britain to another country (not the U.S.) and integrated, refusing to remain self-consciously British. Why? Because life was too hard in Britain and they had to leave, and they were grateful for another chance in a new country. Life was very hard for them for a long time, but still better than before.

You can't make generalizations about people, even if they're your own people.

If you're so down on the British not learning a new language after eight years, I hope you're at least as critical of the many immigrants to Canada and the U.S. who live in their new country forty or fifty years and never learn a new language.

I agree with the principle that if you move to my country, you learn my language; if I move to your country, I learn yours.

Yup. :thumb2:

I was basing that on a number of people I have known. Also the fact that we have the worst record in Europe for language learning.

Of course you are right about the generalisation not holding true for all. I was using such a generalisation for comic effect. There are always going to be people for whom that generalisation simply doesn't fit. But our reputation for an unwillingness to intergrate in other countries has a grain of truth to it nonetheless, despite the exceptions. I once went on holiday with a couple who really were the stereotypical Brits-abroad. I have fond memories of Neil trying to buy a bottle of milk in a French shop by just shouting Milk in a louder and louder voice and trying to mime milking a cow. I also had a work colleague who returned from somewhere in Spain after five years because she was so homesick. She'd tried to learn Spanish but was hopeless at languages and eventually gave up. My ex-neighbour from a few years ago lived in Dubai and never left the anglo quarter of the city. I asked her what it was like in Dubai, expecting some sort of interesting observation...she said "It was dead hot". Meanwhile, TV's obsession with reality TV gives us programmes like "Start a New Life", which follows people selling up all their stuff and moving abroad.....usually to end up miserable and isolated and ready to return after a year or two.

I know that's not the whole picture. My Auntie lived in Spain for 14 years and she and my cousins are fluent Spanish speakers.....but that wouldn't have been as funny:P


As to being down on people for not learning languages. I am not. I know that for some people, learning a new language is difficult. Some people simply find it impossible to take on board new languages. I have no real problem with people moving to a new country and not learning the language. I do however, derive some humour from the fact that the English are so notorious on that score and yet so lacking in sympathy for those who come here and fail to learn our language.

I taught ESOL for a little while (English for Speakers of Other Languages). English is not an easy language to learn, if your mother tongue is not of the European family. The Arabic speakers and the Urdu speakers found it very very difficult. One woman I taught had been in the UK for nearly 12 years and still couldn't get her head around it. After six months I would ask her "Where do you live?"and she would answer "yes". She got so frustrated, bless her. Different people find it easier or more difficult to learn languages. One guy, from Iran, arrived here with no English and was damn near fluent at the end of a year.

I agree with your point that if I moved to another country I should make an effort to at least learn a working knowledge of the prevailing language.

I say the same thing to people that come here. ;)

I sure as hell xiang, ni yao qu bie de guo, ni shu yau xue ta men de hua.

Don't you need the accent markers to make heads or tails of that? The language training we got in Beijing was pitiful, but I do remember the importance of the tonal enunciation of the words.

well yeah, you do need the tones, but its far from impossible to decipher without them

lik when yoo spell with fonicks?

It pisses me off when I meet people who have lived in FL for ten or more years and cannot speak ANY English. There is no logical reason to choose to refuse to learn the language or anything about your chosen nation.
They should be deported. They have nothing to offer this nation at that point.

Their children will speak English, and children are the most important thing you can offer.

Their children will not necessarily speak English, and that's a significant problem.

Nothing's 100%, but for all intents and purposes, yes they will.

Generally spesaking: even in the most isolated and set apart immigrant population, the children born in the chosen country, speak the language.
I know of plenty of immigrants in England who don't speak English. I know of no single case of a child born in this country who cannot speak both their parent's language and English.

Spend some time in a migrant worker community.

Fair enough. I am only really able to speak of my own Yorkshire community, but I am pretty active in it and our main problem is with parents not speaking English, not children. Children learn languages so damn fast, I have never, in all the years I have worked in and around migrant communities ( nor heard of in my mum's work with migrant, refugee and asyum-seeker communties) come across a child who is over the age of 3, been in the country more than six months and cannot speak at least rudimentary English.

Like the thread... I don't think it has to do with one community, nationality or faith... it is about assholes & they need to be treated as such.
With compassion until one is positive they are taking advantage, then get rid of them.

*nods* I agree with you to a certain extent.

You got groups of people beating people up in a neighborhood... find out who they are and arrest them.
End of story. WTF?
What is the problem here?

In Australia, if a child has not learned English by the time they get to school, they don't have a choice but to do so. There are programs in place in all public schools to address this issue.

There are arguments for older family members needing to learn basic english, and I agree with that in principal however, in practice it's sometimes very difficult. Most people move to another country for the benefit of their children, so for me, if the children do benefit and work within the society, then that's the whole point.

Ali, you make a very good point.

In practice, if you are going to be part of a society the most basic aspect of that is communication.
Learn the language.
There is no excuse for not working on that from the moment you arrive until you can do so conversationally.

My point is some older people have difficulty learning a new language. Sometimes it's impossible for whatever reason. I don't think this is a good situation, but I think it's reality.

Does this mean I get to give a boot to all the Brits who have lived here for years and years but still don't speak properly? ;)

On children:

An interesting thing we've noticed, living in a heavily Latino area, is that the kids don't like being different, so tend to refuse to speak their parents' language more often than not. It depends on the child, of course, but that is generally true. They want to fit in and sound like the majority around them.

A good friend's mom has been here 23 years and I could not really communicate with her at all. Part of it is intimidation on her part and then living in a Latino area, there just isn't a whole lot of English being used. She now works in a daycare and is learning with the kids, but not because she HAS to.

They just have to keep working at it... not trying is not an option.

Maybe they do try. How do you know they don't?

I live in FL.
There is a culture here of separatism, prideful separatism.

Well that's a shame.