Thank you, America!
 

Fo making the right choice. Ending the long dark road of Arrogance of Power, Fear, Corruption, Polarisation, Confrontation.

12 years of intensely divisive years, sending the US plummiting in global standing, has now been ended

Thank you, American Voters, from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for giving Rummy the Great the boot, now waiting for the demise of the other Prince of Darkness; Cheney. His heart condition might be a good excuse?

I appreciate your thanks but I wonder why you hold me responsible for Bush/Cheney when I did not vote for them nor approve of them or their policies, etc?

America is as diverse as any country. To say 'we voted the right way' is not exactly correct as there are still millions of those beasties you hate so much, the far-right Republican/Christians. To blame all of America for Bush is equal to thanking all of America for the current power shift, no? I can think of many, MANY Cellarites who voted Republican this Midterm.

Did YOU vote for Blair? Can I hold you responsible for him?
Shall I spew all my hatred for him at you? That seem right to you?

......Noooooo! don't do that......don't start blaming us for Bliar.......okay I did vote for Blair.......but in the first election he really did not come across as a weak-willed, lying, war-mongerer.........and then after that it was the realisation that however bad Blair was, the Tories would be worse.

*grins*

OMG - like Kerry, or Gore for that matter would have done any better??? Puhlease. I'm not condoning anything that anyone did, but really people - would you rather be fighting those a**holes over here?? Don't forget THEY attacked US not the other way around.

I know that I am gonna get SLAMMED for saying that, but there is too much BS floating around not to have a grain or two of truth mentioned here somewhere.

Darling, the Brits don't see it that way at all. They only see it in terms of how it will effect them. They really don't even give a hang about us, in terms of individuals; they see us as one big mass of simple-minded, uncultured hicks who'd best do what they're told, or no pat on the head from them.

For them, we are a big, naughty toddler who needs a smack.
They don't care how our policies effect us, they only care how our policies effect THEM. IOW--we should not vote for what is best for ourselves and our country, we should vote for what will ultimately be best for Britain. They'll be happy to tell you how to vote! Just ask them!

;)

Just messin' with you, yesman!

I think you are the one who forgets. Bin Laden, a Saudi, led a bunch of other Saudis in an attack against us. Iraq had NOTHING to do with it.

We aren't fighting the people who attacked us.

If you really honestly believe that glatt, then I am utterly speechless.

Are you saying Iraq was partially or wholly behind the attacks against us on 9/11/01?

Abso-freakin-lutely, as well as many many other atrocities against mankind. To think that there was no relation to Saddam whatsoever is incredulous.

Now I'm the one who is speechless.

Quit it you guys. Coz Hippikos will get lost in how stupid we continue to be and won't answer my fookin' questions.

Oh, who am I trying to kid? He won't answer them anyway.

Oh come on. Please tell me you don't actually believe that? All the evidence points to no involvement by Saddam whatsoever. The neo-cons have even admitted that. The fact that they couch such admissions in terms that then suggest the opposite doesn't change the facts.

America is not facing, nor ever has faced an invasion from Iraq. Likewise the UK. Granted they are now very pissed off with us, given that we invaded their country, destroyed its infrastructure and killed several hundred thousand of their people, so now they probably have the motivation for invasion, but I don't think we left them with enough to actually mount it.

That's not true. It's also interesting that having accused us of such gross generalisations, you then apply a gross generalisation to what we 'Brits' think of you Americans.

The problem isn't that people don't think America has a right to defend herself from attack. It's that people don't see America's defence as in anyway related to the invasion of a country which in no way posed a threat to either America, or Europe.

Iraq was not connected to 9/11. In no way was Iraq, or Saddam connected to the group who carried out that attack. It was not a war of self defence/protection. It was a war to remove Saddam's government from power. Now, whether or not that was right or wrong as a war aim is another debate. The point is, if the war was about removing another sovereign nation's leader and not because of that nation attacking America; how is there some kind of choice between fighting them over there and fighting them on home turf? The battle in America was never on the cards.

Brianna, when the 9/11 attack happened, Britain held out its hand to America. Our sympathy was assured and deepfelt. We were angry at what had been done to our friends. Do not read current anger at American and British leaders launching a war founded on lies, against a nation who posed no threat to either of us, as some kind of lack of interest or caring in what happens to America and Americans. There is a big difference between disagreeing with a country who went to war and wanting terrible things to happen to that country.

Check out this video. It's hosted by a lefty site, but the video is of Bush.

In it Bush says "nobody has suggested in this administration that Saddam Hussein ordered the attack. Iraq was a — Iraq — the lesson of September 11th is take threats before they fully materialize, Ken. Nobody’s ever suggested that the attacks of September the 11th were ordered by Iraq."

attack! attack!
 

I figured there was nothing to answer. When you are right, you are right.

The country is still split 50/50. Is just a smidgen to the left now instead of a smidgen to the right.

DanaC: "There is a big difference between disagreeing with a country who went to war and wanting terrible things to happen to that country."

riiight. You love us.

It's not our fault. You guys kicked out all the religious nuts with guns and now you're surprised we're a bunch of religious nuts with guns!

Nor did I, but he had been supporting training and offering a safe haven to them for decades.

This war is NOT against Iraq - its against Terrorists.

Can I justifiably break into your garage and steal your lawnmower, because of terrorists?

Nah - my ex moved out of the house last weekend and took it along with everything else & I mean everything right down to lightbulbs and toilet paper. But if I had one, you could.

!!!
 

OK, I give up - you guys are all right and I'm nuts. (not the first time) Just let me make sure I get this correct, so when asked I have ALL the facts and can discuss this intelligently. We, America, as a country, invaded another country, Iraq, and committed the majority of our military manpower, jeopardizing 10's if not 100's of thousands of lives, included all facets of our defense programs, spent countless millions of dollars AND dragged our allies with us for absolutely no reason other than to just to siphon off money into the pockets of political and personal supporters. Is that right??

Sounds pretty close ;)

I think we had reasons for doing it, and I wish they could have been more up front about what they were, instead of cooking up a series of failed PR campaigns, and losing support for a war the reasons for which were never properly stated to begin with.

I still don't know why we invaded Iraq. It never made sense. Your reason isn't the best I've heard, but it's possible.

My goodness people - that is really really sad! I am ashamed to call myself an American if some of us actually believe that statement. I am done - there is no more. It really scares the hell outta me that anyone could convince someone of that.

I, too, am speechless.

The whole "they attacked us" where "they" == "Iraq" is a big red flag for me. I hear that and give the next ten seconds or so to gather the context--humor, sarcasm, rebuttal, or, gawd, righteous indignation. If the tone is serious belief, the speaker has lost considerable standing, perhaps permanently. This is on the order of saying "The earth is flat." with a straight face. Gonna be *hard* to recover from that one.

They = terrorists.

There were, and remain, strategic objectives to Iraq beyond simply WMD or even Hussein. But the strategic objectives are shot due to the unanticipated insurgency and continued sectarian violence.

Ok, nice recovery.

Question: Why are we fighting, no, who are we fighting in Iraq? The people we're shooting, the people shooting us, Who are they? Are they these "terrorists"?

There's a serious disconnect here about the terminology. Without some common ground here, we will continue to fumble blindly around this elephant, some claiming it's like a tree while others claim it's like a rope.

I love it when UT sets little boobie-traps in his posts:

Vague terminology is like a blank check.

A primary reason we attacked Iraq was described by the PNAC in advance. They thought we'd be greeted as liberators, and the jubilant Iraqis would give us land for military bases. They'd become a shining beacon of democracy, inspiring the people in neighboring countries to overthrow their despotic leaders and spread democracy throughout the region. And as our new ally, Iraq would sell us oil that would bypass the OPEC cartel.

Terrorism had little to do with it, except for reducing the need for the administration to come up with another excuse. Of all the countries in the region, Iraq was pretty low on the list of terrorist support.

You are mistaking my disdain for rightwingers as a disdain for Americans.


Terrorists cause terror, they put people in fear. Shock and Awe caused fear in Iraq. Iraq has never caused fear in America or Britain.

I think this thread has become nothing more than a slanging match between usually reasonable people.

Get a grip you lot.

All DanaC was trying to say was thankyou for doing what she was unable to do because she's not a US citizen. I'd like to say I'm happy with the outcome of the recent elections and it's a credit to the majority of US citizens.

As has been discussed in another thread recently, citizens of the world at large are affected by internal US politics. That's why there's interest in your elections and that's why others like to comment.

That's it.

I'm waiting for other shoe to drop once Americans find out that the Dems are as clueless about all this as the Reps. ("But it we were told it would all get better once the Republicans left office and we voted for the Dems! Why oh why!")

I don't think any reasonable person believes the Dems will cure all the ills. I think most people really just figured that the Republicans had their turn, and it is now time to bring in the guys on the bench.

Politics and social upheaval are a pendulum, not a massif. They swing from one side to the other over time, and do not remain embedded and immovable. The pendulum has reached its rightmost extreme, and will now swing back to the left for awhile. Lather, rinse, repeat.

:smack:

No, no, no, no... It was the PRESIDENT, in "campaign mode" who said a vote for the Democrats was a vote for defeat. sheesh. stop drinkin the kool aid, 'k?

I thought that was assinine when that was used then as well, k? I was commenting more on the idea that people I talk to seem to believe that if the Reps are kicked out of office then everything will be peachy.

Those people are deluded.

Government can do good, although some will say I'm deluded for saying so. The principal difference I see just now is that Democratic majorities permit a different set of ideas, a different agenda. I hope the good that can come will be in the form of a different method in Iraq. The previous "plan"--"victory over terrorists" was not working. It seemed clear to me that the decision to "stay the course" had a large component of ... what? Shame? Fear of appearing weak by confessing the obvious failure of the "plan".

I believe there's more relief to GWB's mind than he's willing to display, in that now he can change and save some face. That's it. There was a pathological fear of losing *face* that prevented some legitimate changes. Now he has some cover--I eagerly anticipate some action.

I don't think anyone believes a change of government is a quick fix or that all the people will be happy once it's done.

Don't mistake happiness at a chance for change for delusion.

The Democratic Party, lacking (and how!) a plan to win the war of its own, will have to execute the "Republican plan" they've been irresponsibly trying to resist and undermine these past several years.

Who wants to bet a nickel they'll still eff it right up and lose the war to a bunch of hemipygian Islamofascists?

Perhaps they'll conclude the conflict and develop a plan to actually find Bin Laden. :)

Getting bin Laden is more of a symbolic "nice-to-have," even if it's just getting him with an Atomic Wedgie w/a Half Twist. The defeat and discrediting of the entire terrorist impulse is of more importance, and this is not embodied in just one tall Saudi that the Saudis don't want back.

Aliantha, I didn't start this thread or thank America. I just jumped in when someone made a comment about fighting Iraqis over there rather than on American soil. That somehow equates to my not understanding or caring about the potential dangers faced by America. I just don't think America faced/s a threat from that particular quarter.

I really don't know why you're so agro, Brianna. I get blasted for being anti-American if I bash the Bush guvmint and now I get blasted because I thank America (rethorically) for showing him that it does not approve his policies. Your Yanks are really to sensitive....*sigh*....

No I didn't vote for Bliar, as I'm not a UK citizin. And you're free to bash Bliar any time, as far as me concerns and thanks to UT and Bruce.

What planet did you live on th last 3 years?

You know what, Brianna, I do have a life outside The Cellar :rolleyes:

All that has been achieved strategically is that Iran is now the main regional power. Don't think that was the meaning, or wassit?

Which Republican "Plan" will win the war? The only plan left is to get out of there, pronto!

Hear, hear! Never a truer word was said.

I do so humbly apologize you arrogant fuck.

Anyone who can post six posts in a row can answer questions, don't you think? Oh! Don't answer that! You're far too busy.

ahuh.....*backs slowly out the room*

Hit a nerve here, Brianna, dear?

trying to keep up with the messages, Brianna. Sorry for answering. You can always put me on the ignore list.

I've been on this planet - the one called Earth, thank you. I know I have a very different view of things than most of you do - obviously. I think there are a lot of "sheep" in America that watch and listen to what the liberal media says and blindly follow. I am not one of them. I have views that are not unilateral with any particular party, but feel that many Americans cast votes this week to send a message to the President and although the message was received, I believe it will further complicate and compound some problems and issues not solve them.

I am not interested in getting into a pissing match with any of you here, this has started to turn very negative and personal - I am not blameless either, but I felt that someone had to offer a different point of view other than "Everythings gonna be great" now that the Dems have control of the house and Senate.

The above is just my opinion nothing more nothing less. Thank you for allowing me to vent.

Hippikos: You have not hit any nerve in me, ever. You are a plain and simple arrogant fuck who believes that voters in America vote with the thought of YOU in mind. Oh, it's really too, too funny.

Now. Your wish is granted and you are on my ignore list.

No wucking forries, mate.

You might look into some US Congressional Investigations in which Iraq's role has been examined. Most if not all WH accusations you also mentioned have been refuted.

Re "Everythings gonna be great", won't say it'll be all nice and dandy from now on, but it's impossible to do worse after the last 6 years.