A stunning report from ABC News?
 

And yes, this was posted by ABC News. From ABC News of 9 Oct 2006:

OMG! I called it! I knew that someone would think that Bush called NK to tell them to test some nuclear bombs to boost polls and support. I'm not a Bush supporter by ANY means but the 9/11 conspiracy was pretty pathetic and now this. I hope this was some sort of joke.

Eh, I skim through posts but if we do attack North Korea I'm sure that if we do attack NK someone will make a conspiracy that Bush had something to do with it.

If we are lucky, China will knock over North Korea just to stop NK's saber-rattling from deterring investment in the region at further. Nobody wants to invest in new factories and such, right next to a country that that is taunting the rest of the world for a nuclear smackdown. China however needs all the investment it can get, and has an army that could mow through in NK with relatively little trouble.

It's very funny that NK blames the Bush doctrine on their weapons escalation. "We need these weapons because we fear a pre-emptive attack from the US". Priceless.

I think Kim's on some really strong drugs here, lets look at this:
-Bush says we will pre-emptively attack countries arming themselves with WMD's.
-Kim thinks getting WMD's will prevent a pre-emptive assault on Korea

The whole statement is posturing and a load of BS

Well, there's a step between those:

-Bush pre-emptively attacks a country that isn't arming itself with WMDs, and ignores those that are.

Old Korean Proverb: he who wags dog ends up with fleas.

Everywhere that problems did not exist are now major problems only after George Jr proclaimed them. Iraq, Iran, and N Korea are all now major problems. Iraq was a threat to no one when American invaded. Iran was busy debating a more open and reformed society. North Korea was solved in the Jimmy Carter agreement when America subverted the entire agreement. In each case, the axis of evil speech is a center point of that world wide subversion.

Meanwhile, where a problem did exist - Afghanistan - George Jr instead let bin Laden go free AND now has all but encouraged the Taliban to return. Afghanistan has all the tenor and gist of Vietnam. Another victory for pre-emption and the Cheney Doctrine? Yes.

The ABC News report essentially mocks those in America who still foolishly promote the 'big dic' philosophy. Unfortunately, the 'not so funny part' is how much this joke (the president) has cost the rest of us.

Amen, barefoot!

Kim is just throwing tantrums until someone tosses him a big pile of money to stop.

I think that America should stay out of the issue and let China, Japan and South Korea, the countries that are actually closely affected by NK, handle the situation. Most other countries resent us because are gov. is too nosy and "holier than thou"

Oh, it's priceless all right. And typical of the offensive behavior of the nondemocracies.

So when do we devour this North Korean Society for the Preservation of Stalinism's Features and Failures and set about making the survivors rich? And better lit at night.

Not possible. We have (don't remember a current number) maybe 10,000 troops in-country.

When Jimmy Carter solved this problem (and earned a Nobel Peace Prize for doing it), America was then highly regarded by all nations. This current NK problem was aggravated by Congressional extremists who stopped America's participation in that solution and who then declared intent to invade (Pearl Harbor) North Korea. The 'axis of evil' speech. Following that speech was a worldwide sigh of disgust as the world moved into confrontational mode - as advocated by 'Project for New American Century'.

Why does North Korea want bilateral talks? Because multi-lateral talks failed after the United States - single handedly - undermined an entire peace settlement that NK so wanted and so needed. Even South Koreans in poll after poll regard the US as the most significant threat to peace. And they are correct.

We are there and committed. No way around that fact. Repeatedly stifling negotiation (as Condi Rice wants) can only mean war. Stifling negotiation is what a 'big dic' mentality approves - as even Gen Curtis LeMay wanted during the cold war to make that cold war hot.

Anything that advocates no negotiations - as George Jr does every day - will eventually mean war. War is desirable to those who advocate pre-emption. It is the Cheney doctrine of final solutions now. No wonder these 'big dic' mentalities so advocate an 'axis of evil' concept.

There are strong rumors that the NK nukluar test was a complete failure. Just a measily 1 kiloton, this ain't enough to shake The Great Devine Leader's enemies...

Just give the man his bread and butter and fer crissake let's go on with some real serious business.

Like sodomizing Congressional pages? Schveet! I'm in!

That assumes the purpose was to test a nuclear weapon. Well three months ago, they launched numerous missiles on the same day - 4 July. Were those missiles ready for test the same day - or were they intentionally launched on one particular day? N Korea will repeatedly remind the world that it needs bilateral negotiations to restore what Jimmy Carter created 10 years ago and what radical right wing extremists (ie Rorhbaugh of CA) intentionally destroyed to (due to ignorance) create war.

Does not matter how good or bad that explosion was. It was probably nothing more than spent uranium that also sits at every nuclear reactor in America. They launched numerous missiles on 4 Jul. 3 months later and the world still did not respond. Therefore NK upped the ante - and will only keep upping the ante as long as Condi Rice so fears to even talk.

So this is the question. 3 month ago, how many knew what North Korea was asking for? They were asking for bilateral talks with the US. Did you know that in July? This time Condi Rice proclaims fears of 'one on one' talks - without support from 5 other nations. So now everyone in The Cellar understands what NK wants. But how many knew that demand when it was made three months ago?

Answer to that question would determine if the nuclear test (real or faked) was successful.

If the headlines say NK set off a nuke, then the next day 100% retract it. Much of the world will believe they did set one off. People seem to ignore or suspect retractions, if they see them at all. Strange how that works.:confused:

First, people want to believe that NK set off nuclear weapons because humans love conflict, drama, and all the things that will get you killed in real life.

Second, for the part about people ignoring retractions, this is the same with the 9/11 conspiracy. I will say upfront that the conspiracy is bullshit but no one even bothered to find out if it was vaible or not. The American people have been trained (brainwashed?) in such a way that we will not accept it. Why does the American government have to get rid of the other side when the American people have already been trained too?

And now it's all over the place that there are plutonium fission products detectable in air samplings, and that the yield was a fizzle yield approximating 200 tons of TNT.

Spent uranium would be U238, which is difficult to fission. You have to really spray it with neutrons.

Nor is it a case of "fears to talk." It's a recognition that talk will do no good at all, as the North Koreans are under orders from on high to negotiate in bad faith only -- one reason why they are a pariah.

Impossible, because tw told us in this post in 2002 that the N Koreans could not be producing plutonium bombs because they were specifically putting the rods which would need to be processed, back into the reactor.

Months were required to remove those rods so rods can be processed - as was accurately posted. How long has it been? Years. UT takes quotes out of context to intentionally distort. What those with a political agenda do when they assume the lurker / reader is that naïve.

Rod location was known long ago which was why plutonium bombs could not be in production back then – when hype was promoting war fevor. That was long ago. Rod location is no longer known. Another uncertainty created by refusing to negotiate. Extracting plutonium is another and involved process. Has plutonium been extracted? Unknown.

Unknown variables that would be irrelevant had we only done what great nations do. Great nations do not do preemption. Great nations negotiate with intent to solve problems and avert foolish conflict.

Urbane Guerrilla intentionally lies either due to ignorance or for other incendiary reasons. Spent uranium from nuclear reactors is bomb grade material. Previous discussion involved HEU verses a newer technology called LEU.

Relevant is that UG posts a myth. Spent uranium is bomb grade material. There is no "spray it with neutrons". Concept is called critical mass. Compressing a larger lump of spent uranium will create fission. If conventional explosives did not fire properly, then an atomic explosion would be less powerful.

The point remains: George Jr refuses to negotiate and has only excited this problem into potential war. Concept is especially well understood in South Korea. DPRK has demonstrated nuclear fission which would not happen had a 1990s agreement arranged by Jimmy Carter not been intentionally corrupted. Congressman Rohrbaugh of CA is particularly proud of having destroyed that agreement. Even Condi Rice publicly announces fear of bilateral DPRK negotiations only because she says the US cannot negotiate effectively. So America should not even try? We fear bilateral negotiations? US is only a paper tiger? Only a quitter would say that – or someone who wants war.

UT posts rhetoric taken out of context; years have since passed. UG posts a myth that spent Uranium from conventional plants is not bomb grade material. Apparently both assume other readers here have no technical knowledge and therefore can be manipulated using Rush Limbaugh logic.

Don't be fodder for manipulation by half truths. Appreciate the long term danger created by ‘big dic’ reasoning. Time remains to avert conflict. But America needs an intelligent president and Congressman. That means Cellar dwellers must be informed so as to not fall for myths and spin posted here by UG and UT.

Trying to make implosion spheres out of impure metal? That seems what you're implying, and it sounds like a great way not to arrive at the yield you want. You really want to do it with plutonium, with an enthusiastic (and rather short half-life -- 3 to 5 years) neutron emitter nestled within at the center of a few plutonium-metal shells. I'd have to hunt around to come up with the transuranic metal they used for these "pits." (I believe this method of spark-plugging nuclear weapons is long obsolete -- too tricky to maintain and it irradiated the bomb innards a lot.) Plutonium critical mass is a 32-lb sphere IIRC, which object is about the size of a grapefruit at room temp. An implosion squeeze mashes this down to about half that diameter, for greater efficiency in catching neutrons and thus very much speeding the chain reaction. This is even more efficiently done if the critical mass is made of two or more nested hollow spheres, allowing the plutonium to accelerate before being compressed into a critical mass -- it allows a fission reaction from what is a subcritical mass at ordinary temperature and pressure.

"Time remains to avert conflict?" Sorry, the conflict's already on, and has been going for at least two years. Avert, quotha.

"This same administration that previously advocated military attacks on China now cuts off all oil to Korea. What are they suppose to do. Give up and cry? The smart politician uses the unprocessed plutonium rods as bargining chips AND fires up a nuclear reactor to create electricity. Nothing extraordinary here."

-- tw, 12/30/2002

Just admit you were wrong. It's easy!

The relevant NYT story is here: North Korean Fuel Identified as Plutonium

The long-time Cellar reader may be surprised who used the biggest big dic tactics... and how successful they were.

Wait... How does this:
go with this:

The secret uranium program, probably not completed, was not the source of the material used to screw up this test.

Huh. It seems like there should be some sort of separation or explanation between those sentences.

Well you're more interested in assessing blame between Presidents, while I'm more interested in assessing the errors of tw.

Actually I was more interested in figuring out what they were trying to say there, since it seemed unclear to me. Though the subject of the paragraph is presidential blame, so you're correct to that extent.

Here's the timeline I now read from the paragraph:

Bush 1 - NK starts plutonium refining
Clinton - Clinton gets them to stop with the plutonium. NK secretly starts uranium research instead. No success (though there's no way to know how close they may have gotten).
Bush 2 - NK kicks out inspectors, switches back to plutonium, and has at least a partial success.

It's not *his* bread and butter...he doesn't have any. You just want to pay off another blackmailer. The "Danegeld and the Dane" all over again...you seem to have a habit of spending other people's money on the undeserving poor very freely.

I'd hesitate to believe the Clinton Administration's negotiations with the DPRK stopped anything.

Remember that if it weren't for negotiating in bad faith, the DPRK wouldn't negotiate in any faith at all.

This is not just a typical Commie sin, it is a stereotypical Commie sin.

UT never cites errors. Just claims that some assumed error exists. UT, on the other hand, is trying to confuse 'big dic' thinking with intelligent use of 'carrot and stick'. The NY Times reminds us how Def Sec Perry threatened to attack and destroy the DPRK nuclear facilities. Meanwhile, Jimmy Carter negotiated a deal to stop the nuclear program. No 'big dic'. A head located between shoulders was being used. Same strategy was also used to negotiate Milosevic out of office in Serbia. Previously, that DPRK plutonium was locked away in UN sealed buildings because Clinton used logic – not ‘big dic’ diplomacy.

Assuming DPRK exploded a plutonium bomb, then where did that plutonium come from? NY Times sources suggest the bomb was plutonium previously locked and monitored by UN inspectors due to a Jimmy Carter's Nobel Prize winning deal. All was fine until 'big dic' diplomacy deployed a Cold War bias. A mental midget president so refused to talk that the DPRK - with great publicity and fanfare - announced each action, then announced the date of that action, then performed the action with UN inspectors on site .... desperately trying to get George Jr to only talk using large international exposure. DPRK was desperately warning the world of consequences if US refused to talk.

But a 'big dic' president knew better. He knew that America was too weak to talk with the DPRK. Condi Rice still says so today. Eventually, uranium rods were loaded into a small reactor to increase plutonium content – and everyone knew exactly where those rods would be for months. Still George Jr refused to talk. If NY Times sources are correct, this same plutonium, which could have been negotiated back into storage, instead, became the first of maybe 6 or 10 bombs.

UT, whose solution advocates war, would now say tw has posted in error? Where? If that bomb was that plutonium from two years ago, then the bomb exists only because of American 'big dic' diplomacy. A refusal to talk for five years. George Jr refused to talk when clearly that plutonium was a negotiable entity. Too late now.

If this bomb was plutonium - not uranium - then DPRK success has accelerated so quickly that a DPRK crisis will be totally out of control before George Jr's removal. How out of control? Another fact so often ignored. Who has a largest amount - if not most - of the world's plutonium? That problem was posted here in the Cellar so many years ago. UT - you must know that answer because you so avocate a military solution. Tell us where all this plutonium is located?

If this DPRK bomb was that UN monitored uranium, then that plutonium is no longer negotiable. It could have been negotiable had America elected a president with minimal intelligence. Due to his ‘big dic’ diplomacy, that plutonium is now non-negotiable. Just another reason why we should be talking about impeachment before a mental midget can make things incurably worse. If that bomb was that plutonium, then we don't have another three years to 'fear bilateral talk'.

The cost of buying out the DPRK's 'big dic' power brokers has become enormous. By 2008, that cost will be too high for American ‘big dic’ power brokers – who apparently want war anyway. Overwhelming majority of South Koreans have it right. Greatest threat of war comes from a US that could have negotiated those uranium rods back into storage. Apparently, another opportunity for peace has been lost due to a president who says, “Bring it on!” As accurately predicted by a Norwegian's foreign minister, George Jr destroyed the Oslo Accords. Now he has successfully destroyed everything Jimmy Carter accomplished in mid-1990s when the cost of buying out DPRK 'big dics' was so cheap.

NY TImes article cited by UT says suggests far more than UT apparently realizes.

MaggieL is, as usual, parrotting the official White House policy. Can't help wondering do you have an opinion of your own?

Kim wants bilateral negotiations and a non agression pact for which he would drop his nukluar program. The situation can be solved within weeks. The whole world travels on that road. And the game can be played--has been played, as the Clinton administration showed. But, as with Iran, common sense is in short supply with the Bush Guvmint, especially when a bully like John Bolton is doing the talks. The blackmailer did exactly what he predicted without any response of Bush. Bush unwillingness to negotiate is not a virtue, is a blunder of the first kind. What choice does he have? Another war is unthinkable with the current situation in Iraq and the possibillity of a SKorea massacre.

But incapable of executing even the basics of international diplomacy, the Bushites succeeded in letting the NKorea's situation getting out of hand. Also because of being fully tied up with a country that not even did possessed WMD's.

Kim needs more than that which is why weeks will not be long enough. Kim Jung Il must get a settlement that is so good as to buy off his 'big dics'. The price is now high. Without that deal, he will be killed as we believe they already tried in a railroad town adjacent to the China border.

When Jimmy Carter did the deal, that cost was trivial. DPRK's 'big dics' are now bragging about their ultimate 'big dic' weapons - atom bomb. Cost of a deal is now high.

Meanwhile Kim also knows the only reason why that Jimmy Carter deal was sabotaged - right wing extremist Americans. This week, Congressman Rohrbaugh was preaching his rhetoric on BBC interviews. Why? Rohrbaugh was all but bragging how he undermined that Jimmy Carter deal. Many Americans have little idea what a disasper Rohrbaugh, et al created. But South Koreans understand.

The only way that Kim Jung Il will get a deal is to make a bilateral deal with the US. A deal that the US cannot compromise on. He needs a deal that the US will commit to. DPRK 'big dics' will accept nothing less.

This is too complex for American 'big dics' who have a 'good verses evil' mentality - where perspectives do not exist. Meanwhile, appreciate how complex a DPRK agreement has become due to these American 'big dic' actions. If war on the Korean Peninsula does break out, remember how war could have averted last year. But George Jr (Condi Rice and Cheney) fear bilateral talks with North Korea. So DPRK developed nuclear weapons – each step announced intentionally well in advance. That atom bomb development program was all but on a negotiation table that George Jr refused to sit at.

Just another example of why people using a head between their shoulders avoid wars by learning from history.

It was just a matter of speaking, it's the goal you're after.

Eisenhower was another cunning diplomat. The way he handled the Suez Crisis made the US the most influential party in the ME. It could have been easy the other way around applying the Bush doctrine.

Today even Bush's own GOP members don't want him around on election tour being a risk factor...

Considering how many endorse torture by their silence with S3930 - that basically makes torture and kidnapping of non-American citizens legal ... I wonder how many really understood what Hppokos has just posted. Unfortunately, a large number of totally ignorant lurkers means no response. This is a question of or how likely is the next 'axis of evil' war. A question asked, in part, because I started asking randon people who I don't know and discovered a clear majority - an overwhelming number of people - don't vote. Are we that ignorant as to let MaggieL vote for our morality?

Tw's faith in locked buildings, inside a totalitarian country that wants nukes, is charming -- but quite unrealistic.

If you don't want the Kim Jong Il regime to get the Bomb, you'll have to remove either the regime or the reactors and reprocessing facilities.

And when those non-US-citizens make war upon US citizens in their pissy, undersized way, fighting wars against America as proxies for their sponsors? Seems to me we should wring every scrap of knowledge we can get from them. The Constitution's protections are for American citizens! America-haters need not and must not apply. America's cause is humanity's cause, and the enemies of mankind should be consumed in Allah's holy fire! "Holy smoked! -- that used to be a jihadi!"

How much peace will spread across the planet if all of Islam's Idiots were to fall down dead this afternoon?

If you are a citizen, you are a citizen, period, and deserve the protection of the Constitution.
What is in the White House and Co. is a cancer and needs to be removed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...Posters/29.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...Posters/25.jpg

Rkzen, why impeach the guy who's the most libertarian of all of the Presidentibili? I think the impeachoids are silly, if not nutty altogether.

The commie/totalitarian-symp Left couldn't get Reagan on doing just what Bush is doing. They'll not get Bush, either. Reagan and Bush have both been good for the Republic, and bad for the commie-symp influence-peddlers, whose stupid sense of enlightenment induces them to yowl, scream, and be antipatriots.

Screw them all with a splintery fence post lubed with sulfuric acid. Ram it up theirs until they look like unicorns. America calls for revenge upon anti-democracy, anti-human idiots.

yeah, lets do it. Nuke all the non-democratic states afore they....

nuke us?
send us their poor?
look to us for guidance?
imigrate to us?
pray for us?

Jay, come on, what's better? A world brimful of libertarian democracies, all with wealth and opportunity? Really, that's all any human asks for. Or a world stifled under the totalitarians' boots? Any student of economics could answer this one right.

We don't really have an illegal-immigration problem: other countries have a no-middle-class/no-libertarianism/not-much-free-market problem. Nothing we do north of the border is really going to affect matters.

Praying for us will at least be innocuous.

He has suspended habeus corpus. He is the least libertarian President ever.

True, but not because he's a total pariah.
The faithful, like UG, still kiss the bottom of the boots trampling their rights.

They don't want him around because they are trying to fool the moderates into thinking they are not part of the problem and the stupid into thinking they are part of the solution. :right:

Yeah, right!
The anti-patriot acts, illegal wire taps, illegal money tracking, torture, and now illegal holdings and trials for US citizens without representation or even evidence is SO FUCKING LIBERTARIAN!!!f
The man and is cabinet are Nazis and belong behind bars.

He is still pimping for the truly desperate ones. There was a recent sighting in my district.

Faitfull UG has a brown arm with every person on the right side of Junior...

What you mental maladroits have great trouble understanding is there is no rights-trampling going on. What IS happening is the Administration has been trying to exert war powers without a declaration of war, nor, alas, any likelihood of having one. This is not quite a cleft stick, but definitely in the realm of between a rock and a hard place.

It's the rock and hard place the next Administration will be between also. Wars of insurgency are pretty open-ended. We should be open-ended about it too.

Test your civil liberties. How many of you have been arrested for your Bush bashing here? How many of you can't go to church? Been jailed for submitting a grievance or petition? Go out and buy a gun in town -- is that forbidden? How many infantrymen are quartered in your basement or living room? Any unreasonable SOB searched your skivvies while you were in them? Have you been made to incriminate yourself after getting busted for Bush bashing? Et bloody damn cetera.

Getting abuse from leftists and other peculiar mooncalves is, of course, a badge of honor. Recall the behavior of the "confederacy of dunces." Dunces who can't spell faithful, which is hardly the most challenging of words.

I couldn't name a one of those "US citizens," rkzen.

The man and his cabinet are fighting a war pressed upon us by other people -- and after prolonged effort. Their lot has been committing acts of war against us since the first half of 1983, and had been very publicly working up to it for ten years previous to that.

I say we've been entirely too long-suffering. Let's alter their entire set of political equations and power balances. Democracies are better behaved than un-democracies. Where are the democracies not? Those are the places our troubles come from.

If we use their tactics, we are them.

Rkzen, I view that as a fallacy: Nazi Germany conquered the greater part of Europe. Then we, the Allies, conquered it right back. We weren't, and aren't now, Nazis.

We win the war against them, we aren't them. Lose it, and what are our choices? Offhand, I'd say they are between become them and fight another, larger, more ruinous war. Nuclear attacks definitely fall under the heading of "ruinous."