Homosexuality: Choice or Chance?
 

Mark Foley, R-Fl, recently made the news by resigning from Congress*. This was a big story, and there were several peripheral facts that have come to light in the course of the national discussion, including the fact, indeed, the revelation that he is gay.

I have heard many people object to homosexuality, and one prominent complaint is that it is a poor *choice*, and as such an indicator of immorality, or weakness. As though the person has decided to be gay, consciously chosen all that goes along with such a choice. As though someone could make a different choice.

I do not believe that homosexuality is a choice. I believe that it is far, far deeper than that, as deep as my heterosexuality. I'm not certain as to the relative balance between nature and nurture, but I feel it's defined long before I am capable of making an informed choice, likely before I am conscious at all.

But I want to ask those readers that do think it's a choice, or controllable, why would Mark Foley have chosen to be gay, given these circumstances.




* I do not believe that this story has diddly squat to do with him being gay. Or an alcoholic. Or having been molested. Or that the sun was in his eyes. Or that the dog ate his homework. All such excuses are irrelevant, true or otherwise.

I know of two sets of sisters (not twins) who are all gay. Both sets of parents are apparantly hetero....... which seems to rule out nurture.

For the record, no, I absolutely do not believe being gay is a choice. I believe it is a combination of genetic predisposition combined with environmental triggers in the first few years of life.

However, the argument quoted above always irks me. There are tons of people who actively choose to be all sorts of outcasts. Martyrdom is an undeniable human trait. The argument that if it were a choice, obviously no one would choose it because of the difficulties such a choice would cause, is just silly.

I agree with the others who say its probably part genetic and part nurture. I don't think many people choose to be gay out of a sense of martyrdom. A few might, I suppose, but there's other, easier ways of being a martyr, if that's what you want to be. I have a friend who is lesbian who was raised to be a very strict Mormon. I don't know if the Mormon Church has eased up any on gays, but when my friend was a young girl, the Mormons sent gays straight to hell. My friend used to pray every night for God to take her gayness away. She even briefly married in the attempt to be straight. But she is what she is, and she ultimately left both the straight life and the Mormon Church behind her and finally came out as a lesbian.

My friend also has a brother who is gay and a sister who is not. Inheritance is not all simple Mendialian genetics. We can't choose our genes or upbringing. If we could, everyone would be nearly perfect, wouldn't we?

I know a woman who says she was raised by gay men, she is lesbian. Sounds like nurture to me...
I think homosexuality is just an anomoly that happens, the causes and pattern of it are just so random and complex there might not be a way us to ever understand how or why it manifests. And I really think that that is besides the point. Homosexuals are different then heterosexuals, but caucasians are different then blacks, persians are different then arabians, men are different then women, christians are different then zorastrians...we need to accept our differences and embrace others for who they are.

I think it is interesting that many child molestors have a similar story of molestation when they were the age of their victims.

It's no more a choice than heterosexuality is.

A can of worms has been opened and it will overflow.

Homosexuality - Choice or just happened to be born that way (however anyone wants to phrase it)?

I believe it is a choice.

Recent research suggests that younger brothers of brothers are more likely to be gay. The first male pregnancy sets up something in the womb, they say, which the second brother gets a dose of during development.

Then Madman, please answer the question...

I remember reading something similar to that in a human development book. At a certain point in gestation the fetus aquires its sexual orientation and at another point it aquires its gender expression. Depending on the levels of certain hormones at those times the fetus will be either male attracted or female attracted and then at a later development stage express as femine or masculine.

presumably how you can have effeminate straight men, very macho/butch gay men, lipstick lesbians and diesel dykes, straight tomboys, etc.

According to the book it all has to do with what is happening hormonally during gestation. Sorry, I don't remember the title I have a bad habit of picking up things and reading them from the middle out.

Could be a bunch of shit too, I doubt I made it as far as the footnotes.

And then it may be a choice; didn't mr.noodle elect to be gay for the whole cellar, albeit fluid-less?

Since sexual attaction is mostly phermonal, sexual preference is almost certainly based largly on the subconcious interpretations of these chemical signals. This would suggest that it is entirely genetics but there are other cases where we can get reprogrammed at different stages of life. Whatever it is seems to almost always take effect before full sexual maturity. I've read about animals that exhibit homosexual behaviour under certain population conditions as a control factor, sort of like having a reproductive handbreak that can be triggered through chemical signals. I'm convinced this plays at least some role in human homosexuality. The difference with humans is that we have an amazing ability to almost reprogram ourselves under certain conditions of intense emotion or stress. Perhaps this is also a factor we attribute to nurture?
Let me throw this out there. Depending on the type of chemical signals involved I'm almost certain we can manipulate them to produce either outcome in an already straight or gay individual. What if people found out they can control the chemistry that controls them?

I just can't understand the idea that homosexuality is a decadent choice, and anyone with a weak moral fibre can be led easily into it (not suggested in this thread, but an opinion I have heard many times).

When advertisers want you to change from one brand of cola to another they pay millions, hire pop stars, use exotic locations and thumping soundtracks.

But if you tell little Jimmy that Colin and Justin live together because they love eachother just like Mummy and Daddy do, he'll grow up wanting another man's cock up his arse.

I say apply the standards posted by Undertoad:
If it floats your boat the chances are it's a natural urge, and in the case of homosexuality, one that does no harm to other people.

And we appreciated his fluidless gesture.

Instinctively, I'd say a more nature than nurture, but in case nobody noticed, folks we're complicated.

Womb
 

Evidently, we all start out as female until enough testosterone is created in the womb to have its masculine effect. Androgen, oestrogen and testosterone (the latter is an androgen) all seem to play roles in determining both sex and sexual orientation (at least before culture starts playing a role).

I think the most interesting thing about sexual orientation is that it's probably not as rigidly established as most might think. I have a lot of gay friends both male and female and I've always joked with them how they have a little "woman" or "man" in them respectively. I consider myself masculine, but when my friends see my collection of retro kitchen appliances, I say "There must be a little "gay" in me. It's both a form of stereotyping and acknowledging that our sexual orientation, at least biologically, is probably the result of a ratio of hormones at any given time. The latter is important because we produce them ourselves, so that ratio will change as we age.:rolleyes:

Do you mean the "can of worms" was opened because now Republicans might, unthinkably, be gay? This reminds me of the Cheney's daughter incident. Remember: those that suggested his policies might be hypocritical were made out to be the bad guys, for "attacking" his family...

You are such a madman, madman.

I'll believe it's a choice when you convince me that you made the choice to be heterosexual. You were probably 10 years old, and were imagining kissing your best friend, Brian, and then kissing a girl in your class, Gwen. When exactly did you choose to pursue Gwen, and not Brian?

predisposition = nature. behavior = choice.

Choice = active decision making

Free Willy
 

Free Will = Myth

This is a false dichotomy. Very, very little of our psychological makeup (and, more particularly, our actions) is completely determined by our genetic sequencing. A better way to say it is that our genotypes set a range of possible outcomes for phenotypes, which are then more concretely manifested after interaction with other people.
In Kinsey's terms, you aren't 100% gay or 100% straight. Most people fall somewhere within the range of bisexual, either less or more so. So, if you have a stronger genetic pre-disposition to being gay, it's more likely that you will be attracted to the same sex, but it is by no means a guarantee.
Of course, by no means does that imply that your sexuality is a 'choice' (defined as: actively deciding, "I think I'll dig dudes today, because I'm tired of chicks pissing me off"). You are still attracted to who you're attracted to and trying to change that makes you a little bit crazy (have you ever seen the people who have 'gone straight'? That's clearly an abuse of the god-given gifts of repression and denial). Generally speaking, the factors that lead up to that 'choice' are invariably out of your control (like being molested, or having a strongly pair-bonded set of hetero-parents) and those are the factors that end up influencing your sexuality.

I have to wonder why we worry about it at all. There are many heterosexual acts that are considered to be "perverted" in polite society, but even God fearing men like to have their lady wrap their lips around the old German helmet, and sometimes, they may like to be involved with a little back door action.

Do we tag those people with the same sort of Destination: Hell luggage stickers?

Where am I? And what am I doing in this handbasket?

Some people do.
Only the missionary position por vous! I love to mix languages :)

I think a lot of it is people just aren't willing to accept the differences in others, that is why we have so many prejudices, and this kind is no different then the rest. The only people I see as having a justifiable reason to want to exclude homosexuals, are the religions who have it written in their doctrine. But that doesn't mean they have the right to demand that the rest of society excludes them too. And the argument that it will be detrimental to the sanctity of marriage is ludicrous, either you are faithful to your marriage or you aren't, another person's marriage should have no influence over that. But they still have as much right to believe it a sin as they do to believe that murder is a sin.

You are not bound by genetics to rub your peepee against something. You have to consciously do it.

If you don't consciously do it, there's a good chance you'll do it unconsciously some night. And who was with you in that dream?

And if you are a teenager, you don't even have to touch it to acheive the same results. I remember this one dream when I was about 15 about a Porsche 944. :redface:

That is the definition of how we are bound by genetics: to pass on our genes, IE have sex.

You are bound by genetics to want to. We have a biological imperative to orgasm. Some of us would put having an orgasm before virtually any other activity. Now getting head while having pizza and beer while watching the Eagles is the ultimate set of activities.:)

The biological imperative is to reproduce. Orgasm is part of the mechanism. The means of orgasm is conscious decision. It feels good in order to make us propogate. But we like the feeling well enough to seek it out whether or not we actually desire offspring from it.

Any number of things can make you horny, but you can't blame your proclivities on biology unless they fit into the framework of the reproductive urge.

That means we're all perverts, of course. But we knew that already.

True...but that's because of eating the green M&Ms . . .

Not quite. There is a biological imperative to orgasm. The reason that this has happened is because it frequently results in reproduction. When using the mental shorthand of "the goal of evolution is propagation of the genes", it can be easy to get things backwards. Life is an accumulation of things that happened to result in reproduction, there is no goal.

edit: There probably is also an imperative to reproduce, in the form of the love of babies and jealousy of other parents, but that is a separate issue from the question of sexual desire.

I've always thought that being a gay was a choice...the way I was raised...the fact that my belief says that it's wrong. But, I have 2 siblings, one of which told me earlier this year that he is in fact gay. After months of searching, wondering, confusion, and everything else I've decided that it's not a choice. I never had to decide that I was hetero, why would he have to decide that he's homo? If one has to choose, shouldn't everyone have to make that choice? AND, the fact that he grew up the same way I did...believed all the same things I believed...and hid it his entire life because he too felt that it was wrong...makes me think it's not a choice. Why would he put himself through all of that if he could take the easy way out and be with a girl?
I wish I knew...but since I'm not all knowing, I let his life be his, and love him for who he is...if in fact is a choice, and you believe the same things that I believe...it's not for me to judge him or anyone else...one day we will all meet our makers and have to deal with the decisions we've made in our lives...
and that's my opinion.

At my age, the key word is orgasm! Not how, why, with whom! But IF, and I hope it'll happen a few more time. :smack:

NSFW http://www.consumptionjunction.com/home.asp

How the hell did you know how my wife finally convinced me that she was my dream woman?! I mean, it was the Chiefs against the Cowboys, but still...

BTW - I'm serious.

It makes no difference to anyone here - as a decent person - whether homosexuality is 'a choice or not'. Whether it is 'a choice or not' means it is their life. Any basic American should have no problem with their choice.

Many insist that being homosexual is a sin. Fine. That is a religion. If homosexuality is a sin in your religion, then you are not homosexual. But as soon as your religious beliefs are imposed upon anyone else, then you become anti-America, anti-humanity, and a satanist. Your religious beliefs never apply to anyone else. Never. The alternative is something we are all familiar with - The Spanish Inquisition. The persecution of Galileo. The Crusades. Whether he is gay by choice or not – you don’t pass judgement if you are truly a moral person.

When another passes judgment using religious beliefs, that person even violates the principles of being an American. You have a problem with his choice. I sympathise. However that is only your problem - an emotion. How you deal with your problem should never violate principles we associate with America. It is his choice. That does not, for one minute, harm any person reading this. Whether it is 'a choice or not' makes an interesting science discussion. But nobody cares whether he is gay 'by choice or not'. He is. Then that is reality. Done.

Good for you. That's some decent logical thinking, girl. The whole "choice" conundrum comes in (pun intended) because Man is supposedly above and separate from the beasts. We have the capacity to understand Right and Wrong, to make moral choices, to elevate ourselves above the lesser creations.

Of course, it is horseshit, because Man is simply the top dog animal at present. Anyone who thinks that our station on Earth is a Holy Predetermined Permanent Situation ought to read more about asteroids, plagues and famines.

Man is an animal. A complex animal, sure but our behaviors are little different from any other animal, mating rituals included. So why should we be any more able to reject our biological imperatives than any other creature?

Is that autoeroticism?

I believe that it is a matter of choice. Very few elements of human behavior are truly hardwired. It's not like animal behavior, such as a cat grooming itself with it's tongue, or chasing mice. Cats do these things even if they haven't had significant contact with other cats throughout their lives.

I have heard a theory put forth (not saying I agree with it, just reporting what I've heard) that sexual orientation is often a matter of the first significant sexual contact that a person has.

Sexual behavior often involves what's called "one trial learning" in psychology.

So why do I feel so much less imperitive after a blow job? I know there's no chance of reproduction, but I feel like I've done my duty...ZZZZzzzz :zzz:

cuz your dick doesn't have a brain, and it thinks it just made babies

Exactly! It's not a biological imperative to reproduce, it's a biological imperative to feel like you've reproduced, which is having an orgasm.

It's like a parallel universe, where people ALMOST make sense, but stop just short. Calgon take me away.

dude, it's 9:20 on saturday morning, and there are 3 of us - flint, spexxvet, and me -- reading the cellar. we should all go outside and play catch.

Bri is here, too, I think. I'm at work and there's no doctor, so few patients.

Yo

so you guys wanna play catch?:juggle:

actually nvm i have to mow

*cough* I only pitch... you can catch if you want to. ;)

Easy way out? Have you seen the divorce rate? And they're just the ones that got tired of fighting. :lol:

No, I'm really not that cynical yet. I just couldn't resist.

Gay couples can be just as mean to each other as straights. At least they don't have to go thru all that legal BS a divorce usually involves. They should be grateful gay marriages are outlawed.;)

And just like gay "cure" programs, you could train a cat not to do either one of those things. That doesn't mean it isn't hardwired that they do it.

You seem certain that individual reproduction always has overall positive survival value, and that sexual behavior has no function besides reproduction.

I have doubts about both points.

Yes, I suggested once before the best tactic to convince the anti queer marriage people to change their mind, is put a bug in their ear about queers are getting away with not paying divorce lawyers and the subsequent crap of divorce. They aren't suffering enough, they have it easy. Doesn't have to be true, how would they know? That will create so many conflicting thoughts in the antis, they might explode. :D

Humans have very, very few truly 'hardwired' behaviors, and none that exist past the first 12-36 months. Babies are hardwired to suckle and you could say that putting things in their mouths is also hardwired (at that point you rely on taste and the dense nerve bundles in your mouth to tell what's what). Past that stage we operate on more complicated impulses and urges, which is why we expect 2-3 year olds to start exhibiting self control over their actions. The idea that any adult does things purely based on predetermined factors is complete nonsence and is just something made up by defence lawers that have been backed against a fence. The chronic cheater who says he can't help it because he has no way to control his urges and must indulge himself is a good poster boy for this school of thought. In the end we control not only our behavior, but also our desires.

ROFL!

Bruce, you are a funny man!

The fact that a lot of young - junior and high school age - kids, girls mostly, it seems - "experiment" with same-sex relationships for a while, and then go on to have heterosexual relationships suggest to me that it is probably a choice.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/food/Story/0,,1886018,00.html
Sometimes we are not in complete control of our desires

I'll buy that, Bullitt. But I also believe the control we exercise is directly proportional to the severity of the consequences for making a bad choice.

I think that's why were better at making good choices for things that have an immediate, or short term, effect and not so good on long range choices.
If I eat that cake Mom will kill me, is easy to resist.
If I eat that cake I won't look good in my speedo next summer, is tougher.
If I eat that cake I'll have cholesterol problems in 40 years, is very, very tough.:yum: