animal sacrifices (Eid)
 

hi

i am writing this with caution as not to offend anyone...not with the intention to change people's views but to inform them...this might be a looong way ago..(well it is..) browsed through iotDs about animal sacrificies...just want to point out that the animal sacrifices for Eid..it does look horribly bloody...i'd puke & faint if i was there..
for those animal lovers out there(i'm an animal lover too..well..cats actually)..you may think this is cruel..it might look like that..however...in Islam...when the animal is being sacrificed...there are "rules" such as the knife used must be really sharp and it must be slaughtered through its neck as to shorten its suffering (it dies instantly)...

the meat are distributed to all...rich,poor,men,women,old,young...

it's just that there are different "versions"/scholars views/practices in the religion...

So, is it really a sacrifice, or is it just a creative way to prepare dinner?;)

I personally have to objection to ritual slaughter of animals as long as the meat is consumed. It is not at all unusual in many cultures for hunters to ritually slit the throat of their prey and ask its forgiveness/a blessing from the Gods as part of the process. I'm okay with that.

Now, throwing live little bunnies and cats into a fire while intoning dark chants just for the supposed extra "power" or pure shock value...that, I'm gonna have a problem with. You sacrifice it, you eat it.

LOL Spexxvet :p

Elspode...well..the rules apply to all animals we eat(actually we're allowed to eat livestocks only) ..so I don't know if you know,but here in my country and some others, shops selling food,restaurants,etc must get food that are certified by the authorities(good to eat-proper sacrifice,etc.)..if there are signs in the restaurants saying otherwise..we're not supposed to eat them (sin) but of course there are some who just don't care.hehe.

so that's why,when we travel overseas (non-Muslim dominated countries) we have to be extra careful on where to eat...

was in UK once, thankfully, M restaurants are not that hard to find in big cities...but went we went to Paris,we were lucky to find an Arabian restaurant not far from our hotel.hehe.or else,we'd be vegetarians for the whole trip :corn:

Quoting you
"Now, throwing live little bunnies and cats into a fire while intoning dark chants just for the supposed extra "power" or pure shock value...that, I'm gonna have a problem with. You sacrifice it, you eat it."

I agree.We are not allowed to hunt for sport.Personally, that's just horribly cruel and a waste :D

ok I'll just shut up now :noevil:

IOtD has covered the ritual sacrifices for Eid several times. The things you mentioned have been mentioned before, occasionally, but the sight of mass slaughtering.... the streets and squares running red with blood.... is a strong image.

Like you, most people are repulsed by it, even if they understand the customs behind it. Probably not because it's done, but where it's done, on the street rather than in a slaughter house.
Maybe it's just, "out of sight, out of mind", makes it easier to cope with, for us who see meat as something wrapped up at the supermarket.
My grandparents slaughtered most of the meat they ate, whereas my parents did not. I suspect my grandparents would not be as shocked by the pictures as my parents might be. My parents, seeing their parents do it for the 20 years they lived with them, might be less shocked than myself, since I only witnessed it a few times each year. Each generation getting further from the live animals.

OK, so you can't eat it unless it's your version of kosher. I wonder how the rules compare?

ladyangevil, don't shut up. We're glad your here and glad your sharing your information, ideas and opinions. We may not always agree...... hell, we may never agree, but it's never bad to get another point of view. Thanks for coming. :thumb2:

True true...

As for myself...I've never been to an actual slaughter/sacrifice...but I've seen it on the news once and I just changed the channel because of the sounds...and the blood...can't even stand to see my own blood :thepain2: ...haha... but I know and I was taught it was done for a reason..I still eat them anyway...

The rules are pretty much the same..I think...there are two kinds of animals we are forbidden to eat/touch - dogs & pigs...Dogs are pretty usual around here(mostly strays) but not pigs...so everytime we encounter a dog..we'd just avoid them..if we ever come into contact with these animals..we have to "cleanse" ourselves by washing the body part with soil & water..

However...there are some known Muslims who touch dogs..and even keep them as pets...not here though...but in the UK(my friend's landlord who's a Muslim)...so kind of confusing there...I'm also not sure...maybe their teaching is different...but I have a dream (!!huh..enter martin luther king here...hehe)that everyone out there not think that all Muslims are the same...(what am I trying to say here..)so I hope we don't get judged just by one thing one other person/group does...

especially with all the recent/past political issues happening out there...as in Christianity...suicide is sinful right?so it's the same in my religion..it's a very bad sin...and also..when in a war...we're not supposed to attack/kill civilians...women..children...even rationally that's just wrong...so it kind of hurts us when we went to a certain place in the west...people stare at us as if we're evil...sigh..but that's just the way how the world goes...

i mean..few years ago..if there are foreigners here...people would stare at them but in a...curious way...you know...like they've never seen one before...but now..there are quite a lot(expats & quite a few tourists as well)...i'd bump into one everytime i go out...so instead of staring out of curiousity..we'd just ogled at the guys(hardly though..since most expats are ...quite old for my age)...haha...and if there was news about a navy ship stopping by our port...FOR SURE there will be some "interesting" things to look at down at the mall..(my bf got jealous when he found out about this & when these CUTE european guys said HI to me :p )haha...O-kay..that's far from the topic..

few years ago during the Bali bombing...my Australian lecturer told us that her family called & got worried about her but she assured them that our country here is pretty safe...hoaxes does happen rarely(stupid assholes)...riots?protests?the one and only(as far as i know) happened in the 60s...

although the streets may be less safer at night(and day occasionally)...the things we do worry about here are thefts,burglaries..few murders(crime of passion...very rare)..delinquents...etcetera etcetera etcetera...but we do still go out til late and such...we'd just have to be extra careful(lock the doors,windows,etc)bla bla bla..

ANYWAYS..such a long reply....Thank You for your opinion ...likewise here...I like to listen to people's opinions...may agree/disagree with them...heck..if we'd all agree on the same thing...it's not a colourful world,right?and another thing..so far I'm loving the Cellar..because of the adult conversation..change of opinions and such....:thumb: instead of some forums i found that does nothing better than to fight childishly..lewd..bla bla (although i found some naughty comments here..but that's ok....hahaha...)

thank you again..(btw,i know i can find this online..but i'm just too lazy to do that now...but...do you happen to know the overall cost to spend to go to Universal Studios(not including plane tickets)?oh oh and also cost of hotel rooms?)if not,sokay....just sometimes i'd like to ask people from there directly before doing the other research method..haha

This forum is located in America and as Americans, we hope that we are judged as individuals and not by the actions of other Americans.

All Muslims are not the same, all Christians are not the same, all Americans are not the same, all Britons are not the same and all Brunei people are not the same.

We have cultural similarities, but I bet your dislike of dogs is more about where you grew up and what the customs were, than the fact that you are Muslim.

I grew up liking cats because that's what we had in our house when I was young. Now that I've had dogs, I love dogs. Once you speak their language a little, they are great companions.

Much respect to you Lady, thanks for sharing.

lol Spexxvet



I grew up raising our own beef and chicken. The human slaughter of meat is something of man's right in the food chain?

Even animal sacrifices are noted in the old testament. I think the idea being is that we don't need to spill blood to gain power. If there are religions that still do and the animals are not tortured then I think most can just accept it as something man has done on his way to evolving.


What we ( americans) are guilty of through mere ignorance is the fur trade of domestic animals by countries that do not have animal protection. Such as China. The torture and stripping of animal hides while they are still alive for nothing but to feed american gluttony is one of the highest crimes I can think of.
The torture of living things has got to be condemed. This is the ultimate animal sacrifice as far as I am concerned. Religious animal sacrifice pales in comparision to the real happening right under our noses. Sometimes literally 'right under our nose'. Next time you buy a coat take stock on just what that fir collar is made from. Please

The ultimate sacrifice!

http://www.hsus.org/about_us/humane_...fur_farms.html

Can't waste time killing them first....gotta keep the prices down for those Walmart shoppers.:eyebrow:

grateful
 

Thanx Undertoad

oh oh..i would like to say...i don't dislike dogs...i like looking at puppies :angel: they're adorable!!!but still...we can't touch them...i can just adore them looking at pictures/videos...i am afraid of the big ones though...as this is a current problem here where recently...3 big stray dogs mauled an 8-year-old child while walking home from school..not sure about the full details though (whether he provoked the dogs or not)..he's alive though...last i heard he was in the ICU.

so there is a debate amongst the people here...some say strays should be put down gently(put to "sleep"?something like that)...and some opinions i read was to kill(:worried: ) them...however,in Islam,we are taught to never be cruel to animals..even to dogs & pigs...because they are God's creation nevertheless...so again,in this day and age,it comes down to personal opinions...and depends on what the government says on the proper way to "dispose" of the strays..so it is also important here for those keeping dogs as pets to put collars around their necks..

some of the strays come from labour foreigners (construction) keeping them as pets but when they leave (construction done) they left the dogs there to be strays...sad,isn't it?and...i have noticed recently....there are quite frequent roadkills (accidentally or deliberately..i don't know) on the highways..

really grateful of your opinions you guys...

Quote: All Muslims are not the same, all Christians are not the same, all Americans are not the same, all Britons are not the same and all Brunei people are not the same.

never judge a book by its cover,right? :browhappy

I searched the Qu'ran for "dog" and the only mention is 7:176, 18:18, and 18:22, none of these passages suggest that dogs are unclean. A Google search for "dogs koran" brings up this page: Dogs in Islam
Although most dogs are mostly snout and saliva. :D

I should do something but when I have to look at the ugly reality of it straight on my knees buckle under. It is a great crushing weight of sadness. I wish there was something I could do.


Why can't you touch dogs?

Because it's a convenient solution to, Daddy, daddy, can I have a puppy? ;)

I for one am greatly appreciating a Muslim voice here in The Cellar. It is also heartening to hear acknowleged that following a Muslim path does not automatically take one to jihad, sharia and suicide.

Right you are, Elspode. LadyAnGeVIL is obviously intelligent, articulate, and educated.
Being from Brunei, I would guess she is the opposite side of the coin, from the people we see on the news. It's a pleasure to hear her views on anything and everything, from daily life to international politics, rather than have a third party tell us what she(they) thinks. :thumbsup:

It would be nice to hear from some American Muslims too, I'm sure there must be a couple lurking.

Muslims consider dogs to be "unclean", in the same way that all carrion eaters are unclean to both Muslims and Jews. I believe the dog got this bad rap because in the environment where Islam spread, back in the 10th century, a lot of dead bodies got created. Dogs ran through the area of the fighting, eating the bodies of the dead. Vultures and eagles are also unclean for the same reason, and since pigs are fed garbage and have been known to eat anything that happens to venture into their pen.....

The only dogs traditional Muslims were allowed to have were the Salukis and other breeds which were used for hunting, as were the hawks. Although neither of these creatures may be eaten, they may be touched. They are not unclean if being used as hunting implements. However, making a PET out of an animal is either discouraged or forbidden in most Muslim cultures. There is a crackdown going on in Saudi Arabia right now by the "Morals Police" against people who are bringing pedigreed dogs or cats out in public as status symbols. Defenders of the right to own pets have pointed out that the Prophet kept cats, and even allowed his favorite cat to drink from the basin where he made his ablutions before praying.

I read an explanation of the indifference to animal suffering that has been noted in so many Muslim countries. This author explained that a Muslim has a different concept of pity. Of course, he was speaking of men, who tend to be the only face of these cultures for reasons best not gone into right now. Anyway, pity makes you weak so you must not let pity enter your mind. They believe that pity is not in YOUR nature, it is an essence sent out by the animal, woman, prisoner, whatever, which invades you and weakens you. It is like a contageon. It is not part of you. Therefore, the suffering of another entity does not affect you unless you allow it to. That might have something to do with why the people can calmly walk through rivers of blood during these sacrifices. Very possibly the women are not instructed in these fine points because it serves the culture to have them respond to the pain of others and offer succor, I don't know. It would be interesting to see what our new visitor's comments on this are.

oh wow...that's a lot of replies in just...12 hours..hehe....

urm..first of all,let me remind you,English is my second language,so it's a bit difficult for me to understand at first glance about your replies...AND sometimes i find it hard to explain something,especially something like this as this is a sensitive issue & I don't want to misrepresent my religion in a bad way...sorry about that..I'm working on it..

to answer your questions in a simple way...in our society,we were taught that dogs & pigs are forbidden...however, rummaging through my old textbooks, they are "dirty"(can't find the right word) in such a way that we wouldn't be able to carry on our religious activities without cleansing ourselves first (by washing the area touched 7 times - once with water mixed with soil)so it's safer to avoid being in contact (with skin,fur,saliva,etc) of these animals

plus,there's the hygienic thing..there's an explanation somewhere but i just can't recall it..oh..and...of course you know this..don't believe everything you read (on the Internet,some books)..just verify sources..because there have been known sites,books which are counterfeits...they seem to be explaining Islam..but actually they are deviants looking to twist people's minds and maybe change people's beliefs...and if i'm not mistaken there was a case yearsss ago somewhere that someone tried to pass a fake Quran to unknowing people...I mean,I'm not saying everything you read is false,just be careful & get a second opinion :) ( i am not an expert thus my simple & short explanation)

thank you elspode.that gives me a warm feeling inside (or maybe I'm just hungry..just kidding =p ) we're really low profile...mild-mannered (most) people...we do know there are extremists out there...as i remembered it, we were taught that there are a few types of deaths where they can be guaranteed to be accepted in heaven...such as dying in a battle to fight in the name of Islam...However, the battle means somewhat like what our ancestors along with the Prophet did,against another army (who were armed) not innocent civilians...die in true honour...we are & would be repulsed by all that's happening & happened (i am sorry about the 9/11 incident..it was a horror to watch it on the news & i could only imagine what you feel) if i was a superhero,i'd end all the wars and bitch slap those who started it (har har =| ) for making the rest of us Muslims look bad and be hated for action(s) made by one person/group(s)..and again I am just grateful to read your responses and you guys are understanding (I thought I'd be banned for sure for bringing up this kind of topic =\ )

i'm not sure about using this quote button..i'll just try it anyways

hmm...I'm not sure about the other countries,but here,we are taught to be compassionate even to the animals mentioned(even if we don't get to touch them).like I said, they are still God's creations.everything's here for a reason.it's just sometimes personal opinions/vendettas get in the way of true beliefs.

not having pity?we have to have pity unless we're not humans.i can't recall an example, but this is a close one (i guess).there is a saying which roughly translates as "even the Prophet forgives his people" where no matter what kind of fight you get into,you have to apologise or talk with the other person (if we don't talk to each other,it's a sin)because this was what the Prophet did (it is encouraged to follow his doings)..just in case the other person passes away...for example,if D has a fight with H then suddenly a few hours later H dies,D has to live with the guilt and the sin,as sins to God can be only forgiven by Him,but sins to others,must be forgiven personally.
so,not having pity does get in the way of forgiving,right?

again, there are different teachings..for us here, our sources are the Quran & Hadith(a collection of the Prophet's narrations & approvals)..whereas some doesn't accept the Hadith.

we live in a world with different cultures & religions.to live through all the differences,we should live together & harmoniously.personally,we can't live alone....we do need others =)

At the bottom of the link about dogs, that UT posted, they mention there are "tens of thousands of hadiths".
I would guess not many people read them, just rely on what their family, and the society around them, do.
In case there's a question they would rely on a cleric to answer, rather than read through all those hadiths. :cool:

Luckily there's a searchable Hadith database!

Reward for serving animals: 003-043-646Meanwhile, numerous entries say that you lose one or two Qirat per day for keeping a dog. So you can keep one, but there is less reward for good deeds?

That's cool, they say since the advent of the printing press it's easy to own a set. But, then they show the search uses 4 different collections.
What's that for, if it's easy to get a printed set? That would lead me to believe there is not one complete set, they are spread out among a bunch of collectors.

Also, I wonder how many camel drivers and goat herders truly understand the power of boolean? I'm still betting most people rely on family/town custom and clerics for the answers. :cool:

My understanding is that most people rely on the interpetation of the local Imam. In this country certainly there are issues in translation because British Muslims only know enough Arabic to read the Koran - if that.

Also it takes interpretation to understand how the Prophet's teachings apply to modern life. I used to stay up to watch a late night programme called Sharia TV, where a Muslim audience questioned a panel on various questions (for example organ donation). There was often difference of opinion between members of the panel, and even the person asking the question sometimes shrugged off the answer as not being what they believed.