Religion and relationships
 

I found the cellar a few days ago looking for answers to my computer problems and I got to lookin around at what else there was here .. and found how so many people have disucssed thier troubles/concerns here for advice. Well I have a issue of my own that I would like some outside prespective of and I thought that this would be a great place for just that. Its gonna be long so bare with me.

I started talkin to this guy I liked at work, and its been about 9 months since the beginning of real conversations. After about 5 months of hanging out (alone and with friends) and talkin on the phone for hours almost every night, I told him that I had really started to like him more than a friend and he acknowledged the same feelings but there was something preventing him from going any further with this relationship. He told me I wouldn't understand ..

A week goes by and we are able to talk face to face this time and I asked him to explain to me what his reasoning was. He tells me that he wants to date for marriage (I am not opposed to that) but that he wants someone that is Christian like him. I, obviously, am not Christian. He believes that only Christians will go to Heavean and he would only want to marry someone that would go to Heavean with him after death. However, after all that, we give each other a hug and a hug turns into a kiss which turns into more kisses. Nothing else happens that night and we both go to our respective homes.

The following week, we talked about what had happened that night. Nothing much came out of it. I think we both were expecting closure but it didn't happen. I told him that religion is not a big deal to me so that it was ultimately his decision as to what would happen. He told me that he really wanted to be with me on one hand but that what he had said about his faith and how things would work once we had a family and such would still matter in the long run to him. Thus not giving a definite answer.

Four months later .. our relationship has advanced to where we act as a couple, when we are alone. If his friends knew about us, they would force him not to see me again. I also agreed to go away with him for a weekend, where he told me he "loved me" for the first time. I too, I love him. I have not connected, like this, so well with a guy before. Sometimes the topic comes up where he should not be with me or that we should stop acting as a couple between each other .. because that is what will eventually happen. But each time, we both cry and get sad and don't want to lose the other so we ignore reality for a little longer.

He is going out of country for work in the next month, and will be gone for one maybe even two years. So really when we are ignoring reality, we (I) are (am) looking at it as a few more months to live it well and be happy with this guy for as long as I can. Let the future bring what it may..

The spiritual connection is the only thing that divides this drift between us. He hesitates when bringing up stuff that he is doing for church. And I guess he grows distant when he is engrossed in his spiritual activities. I remember being on the phone with him for 10-15 minutes in silence, yet not hanging up because we wanted the presence of the other person still. The silence is not because we were fighting .. just because he didn't have anything to say at that time and because it felt akward neither did I. These kinds of conversations occur during the weekend after he goes to church or after Bible study.

I'm not sure what to do .. even though he is going away we have set up alternate ways of communication. We each have invested in web cams and settup ways to talk online. Should I continue to just live happily till it lasts? Or should I let the distance and time make its rifts between us?

I guess the extreme action would be considering converting to Christianity. I don't think I'm ready to take that action at all. I'm not that religious in the first place, and I've tried so hard to create my own understanding of God and supreme power, that I'm not sure that I can easily accept another's views.

Any advice would help .. my mind is tangled and fighting a battle of logic vs. heart. :(

Thanks! :)

That is not an easy one, to be sure.

My boyfriend is a strongly committed Christian.

I am not. I'm not even one part of one of the "big three" (Abrahamic) religions. I am Pagan.

He, however, knows and accepts this. In fact, we end up having a lot of interesting discussions based on this. We do share a lot of other commonalities, and our relationship is more so based on that. He knows I won't try to convert him, he won't try to convert me. Not everybody is capable of that level of understanding. Converting is something that should be a matter of belief, not just for the sake of a relationship ... a life choice, like a religion, is a very personal thing.

The physical distance that you are facing is also going to put a major strain on your relationship.

Good luck with this, to be sure.

Deep down inside, he is desperately hoping you'll convert. And you are hoping he'll decide he's able to accept a non-Christian wife. If a little of both were to happen, you might actually have a chance at long-term success. And believe it or not, a little of both is possible: before my husband and I were married, we too struggled with differing faiths (or more precisely, his definitive and strong Christian faith, and my more nebulous beliefs in God but complete and utter distaste for any organized religion.)

He, too, thought before he met me that he couldn't marry a woman who wasn't devoutly Christian, and I thought I couldn't marry a man who supported an organization responsible for some of the most horrifically intolerant people I had met in my life. But it was apparent we wanted to marry each other. So we had a very long, hard talk about what precisely we actually needed and what we only thought we'd always needed.

For example, I needed his reassurance that he did not in any way support the intolerance or bigotry that is often associated with fundamentalist Christians. For example, deep in his heart he might believe that my gay roommate was going to hell, but he also must believe that his own sins were just as bad in the eyes of God, and he was in no position to judge, ever. In turn, he could accept that my faith was not as definitively Biblical as his was, but we and our children would attend church as a family--as long as we chose the church together, and we openly discussed the "trickier" topics as they inevitably came up, and he never tried to tell the children that when it came down to it he was right and I was wrong. Also, should our children ultimately choose a differing faith as they became adults, we would always support them in it.

It may be that the year or two apart will be what you need to help you sever a doomed relationship. Or it may be that the two of you can successfully compromise your lifestyles to accomodate each other without compromising your beliefs. Only you can know for sure. But I can tell you that if you're both willing, it can definitely be done.

CF: :thumb:

I suggest you have him talk to some guys that have been married for 30 or 40 years and ask them if they really want to spend eternity with their wives.

Oh, and welcome to the Cellar shalini. :D

My wife is a Christian, raised a Baptist (Freewill at that). I am not a Christian, I am a Buddhist... an atheist really.
We are in our seventieth year together and have a three-year-old son.
It has not been a problem, at all. I don't see why it would, but she is a real Christian.

I don't see why the trip would cause a rift... please explain further.

Seventieth or seventeenth? The mention of a three year-old son says that HAS to be a typo (I'll draw on the biological argument for this and put the jokes aside)

time will tell ..
 

I'm not so sure that this is going to be an easy answer. By birth I am a Hindu. I like you do not really like organized religions because they have come to cause much violence in the world in the name of faith. To me, religion is a way to teach people "right" from "wrong", to believe in goodness and oneself. I'm not sure that I'm describing what I believe accurately .. So there is gonna be lots of differences and issues that would come up.

First of all, he is a converted Christian .. from Islam. So I'm not sure how that would changes things too. He had told me earlier on that he could never see himself even stepping inside a temple, even if I think its fine. And that he would definitely like to push his kids towards the "right" direction in terms of religion. So I'm not sure how willing to comprimise he will be but I guess only time will tell ..

I'm hoping that these years apart will bring out what is really there as issues and commitment. Thanks for your advice Clodfobble! :)

haha in the Hindu religion you're stuck with your wife for seven lives! Can't beat that!

Thanks for the welcome :)

I agree!
 

I agree with you completely! Converting cannot be forced upon someone. And I don't believe I can change so much. I don't think I should have to either. Thanks for the advice, wolf! :)

Seventeenth.
My son is three.

If you don't mind me asking .. how do you manage things between your wife and yourself in terms of religion and how the house is run? What religion will your son be picking and how, if you have talked about this with your wife.

The trip is a concern because then it because an exceptionally long distance relationship (he's going to the Middle East) .. and that usually brings out the worst in relationship .. as I have seen with my friends.

Doesn't someone pick their own religion?
Since I don't have one, the religion he will know the most will be my wife's. Though he will be exposed to Buddhism just as much, it is not a religion.
However, I study religion, so he will be exposed to discussions to all of them.
He is currently in a Methodist school because that is the best pre-school in this area.
Young adults taught to think for themselves pick the religion, spiritual path, lack of one, that suits them best, when the time comes... I'm not worried about it.

I have this same problem with my boyfriend, only I am the christian and he is agnostic. We have had many discussions about religion, and usually I end up frustrated because I can't seem to find the words to discuss what I believe. Part of the problem is that I was raised a christian, I didn't really decide to be it. I just always believed because my family believed so there is still much I need to learn about it to be really sure that it is what I believe.

I usually agree with most christians, but I have issues with some of what is believed in the faith. So maybe I am not actually christian but that is the closest to what I do believe. It is so confusing that I don't know how to tell him about it. He wants definitive explainations why christians believe certain things, and I can't give him that. I just know that is what I was taught. That is the major reason I don't discount our differences. If I don't really know why I believe what I believe, then how can I tell him he should believe the same too?

I know this makes me seem really fake and superficial and I am trying to remedy that. But I find it hard to believe that everyone who isn't Christian will go to hell. I just don't know what to think sometimes. I just need time and a better education into my religion, and then I will know what I believe.

So obviously I can't help you out... I am just as confused. Only I know I want to marry my boyfriend. I just hope that my beliefs won't hurt us in the long run.

Do you mind me asking what you wanted to know in more detail... you cannot offend me, seriously.
As for the house, we are partners, equals, but I am pretty passive when it comes to the religion thing because of how sure I am that he will make-up his own mind and her promise that we will openly discuss all faiths with him as he asks, even though she will tell him clearly of her beliefs and me of mine.

Following Christ > being a "christian"

When people do the former, the latter rarely causes problems. The first is a relationship, the latter is religion. There are lots of breakups over differences in religion, there are not so many caused by one following Christ's example in their life.

[quote=Iggy]I usually agree with most christians, but I have issues with some of what is believed in the faith. So maybe I am not actually christian but that is the closest to what I do believe. It is so confusing that I don't know how to tell him about it. He wants definitive explainations why christians believe certain things, and I can't give him that. I just know that is what I was taught. That is the major reason I don't discount our differences. If I don't really know why I believe what I believe, then how can I tell him he should believe the same too?

I know this makes me seem really fake and superficial and I am trying to remedy that. But I find it hard to believe that everyone who isn't Christian will go to hell. I just don't know what to think sometimes. I just need time and a better education into my religion, and then I will know what I believe.[quote]

As you learn more about Christianity you will know what to say to your boyfriend. Offer for him to read small sections of the bible that will help explain Christian beliefs, ask fellow christians for help with it. God will also be helping you as you learn to know what to say to people who don't understand or opose Christianity. Even if someone isn't a Christian, if they repent and accept Jesus into their lives before they die, they will be accepted into Heaven with all other Christians - if they are truly regretful.

Being a Christian means you have a faith - being that you have Jesus in your heart and have accepted that He will look after you and that He is your Saviour. Having a "religion" means you follow someones "rules" in beliefs (organisation), not the bible for what it is. I don't want to bad-mouth religions as I'm a baby Christian at the moment but I know that there is a difference. the bible does say to marry another Christian

True Christians are not responsible for any acts of violence nor are they intolerant of others and they know not to judge others, but on the same hand, Christians are still human and are not free from "human thoughts and acts and are not in any way sin-free. Everyone will be judged on their own merit in from of God when their end is come.

Who's to say that the two of you wont stay together as a couple even if he does leave for a year or two? Or that you may (with some further knowledge or more of a nudge from God) decide to take on Christianity as your own faith in the future? You would not believe the number of Christians I know that started out as either not believing in God at all or following a religion such as catholicism. This situation could even be God's way of asking you to join him, through your boyfriend...after all, we all have to start and learn from somewhere.

I'd be curious to know where it says that. I imagine most religions like you to marry other from within the fold, but I never heard that it was in the bible.

The most commonly quoted verse is from Paul's 2nd letter to the Corinthian church:

When Christians talk about being unequally yoked, they are talking about 2 people with vastly different spiritual beliefs being tied in a union that requires a single mindset for harmony. One or the other has to abandon some part of their belief to live with the other.

This is a loose interpretation, though. It might not have anything to do with marriage at all, but with the fact that the people Paul was writing to were getting involved in idolatry, which was the status quo in those days. He was telling them to separate themselves as believers from those who had other gods.

The same author also wrote this:

I never was aware of this passage until I read it for myself. Yay legalistic churches! /sarcasm

Thankyou mrnoodle. As I said I'm a baby Christian so am not the best at explaining things in the bible.
However i do know that the second quote from the bible you gave about not divorcing your wife/husband if they do not believe, means that if you marry - both as non believers - and then one of you becomes a Christian, then your wife/husband is saved through your belief and you mustn't divorce just because you don't have the same beliefs.

I have learnt some things through bible study...lol

Thanks mrnoodle. I didn't realize that particular topic was covered in the bible.

If you're a believer, though, I think it's important to note that Paul's giving a personal opinion, and isn't presuming to speak for God.

Many Buddhists believe he as a Buddha and treat his teachings as such.
Books by Thich Nhat Hanh

I'm sorry. I think this relationship is doomed unless you both can compromise and stop HIDING. The secretiveness is most telling, to me. Love should not be treated as if you are ashamed of it. If it is being treated that way...it isn't True Love, in my book.
Sorry for the negativity, I vote you need to cut your losses. It appears he would rather break before he bends.

From the Wiccan perspective, light cannot exist without darkness, nor vice versa. Duality/opposites are fundamental to the makeup of the Universe. Good cannot exist without evil, right without wrong, etc, etc.

Therefore, from the Wiccan (or more to the point, *my* Wiccan) point of view, the merging of opposites is not only possible, but natural.

See Els, the gooder you get, the more you need me. :vader1:

"Four months later .. our relationship has advanced to where we act as a couple, when we are alone. If his friends knew about us, they would force him not to see me again."

This all sounds way too weird. He must be part of some fundamentalist sect. It is important to find out what he really believes, and it seems he is fairly vague about that.

But having "friends" who can force you to behave in a certain (so far as I am concerned) very unnatural way is definitely not a plus.

Well I spend 5 years in Divinity School and Graduate School of Religion. That pretty much cured me of religion. Mostly, the things that seem to be so important to religious people and cause such divisions are fairly absurd.

Not long ago you could fund fundamentalist preachers all over the South and elsewhere who believed and preached that segregation was the will of God. Now they have given up on that and just about the only group they get to hate is homosexuals. So the Episcopal Church is divided over whether or not to ordain homosexuals, and the split could be very bad. I just mention that because the absurdity of objecting to homosexual behavior seems to be part of what passes for Christianity in some places these days.

Remember that if you two are having sex, he is bound by his religion to repent and never do that again. How do you think that makes him feel about the relationship?

Anyway, I have less and less patience with this sort of stuff the older I get (and I am really old).

My advice is to run for the nearest exit. Find yourself some nice person who does not have to deal with such a rigid code of behavior, which he violates anyway.

You make some very good points, joelnwil.

I think this statement is worth putting up in neon lights....
An excellent reminder not to lump everyone together with the extreme fringes of any large group. :thumb:

The great thing about my wife is that she NEVER says to my son, "we behave this way" or "do, or don't, do this" because God does not want us to" or "because it will make Baby Jesus cry" or similar stupid shit... because you have inserted a fail system into that person's moral/ethical system.
So, when they have their series of religious questionings/epiphanies during their early teens they will not feel like they don't have a moral base.
While in therapy in my teens I saw so much of this it was very scary.
Your ethical/moral base/system does not have to be based in your faith, they just have to work together... in fact if that is the case, I think that strengthens both. It is a system of checks and balances.
But, at the same time, we don't (& won't) say damaging crap like "because we said so".

There is also 1 Corinthians 12-14 (KJV)

12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

That's part of why I don't like Catholicism- They're always all 'ZOMG THE BIBLE', but then if a Catholic wants to get married in the church to a non-Catholic, their potential spouse has to convert. But it says right there in the Bible that it's okay for a believer to be married to a non-believer.

Catholics do not read or particularly follow the Bible. They follow Catholic Doctrine as expressed in the Catechism.

The Bible (Catholic Standard Edition) is doled out in small doses during Sunday Mass only.

All Catholics have a Bible in the House. It's purpose is to hold prayer cards, mass cards, and funeral cards, as well as to press the occasional four-leaf clover.

The Bible is a quasi-accurate history book, telling us how people lived, what they believed, how their interactions played out. We can learn a lot from it.

That said, use it as a guide to figure out what you feel is proper behavior, and not take specific passages to be gospel (pun). Any passage you can quote to justify particular behavior, somewhere is the Bible a case can be made for the exact opposite.

If you let someone else dictate your behavior without your input, you probably won't be happy. :cool:

But... thinking is so harrrrrd.

i know its been a long time since someones posted anything.. but im in the same situation.. almost exacly the same.. only she is worried to death about my well being with god. i am/was a naturalist. i just lived life believing there was an after life and i would see what it was when it came to be. but then she shows me this thing called The Rapture. even though its different in the bible it has the same ideas.. and shes scared for me. ive never EVER been caught in such a hard situation. i cant sleep or eat. my emotions are up and down. if god was so great.. youd think it be easier to conver =\. or if god loved us all hed understand my differents and show me when its time. but this iss oo hard. im crying randomly and worrying about her. its hard. i lived 6 years of my life as a naturalist. and was happy. even when troubles struck i fount a higher reason for why it happened. i just hope somthing happens. that everything will be ok and i wont loose her or visa versa

Stop your crying and shit can her. The only way religious people ever accept anyone is if they agree or pretend to agree.
If you start out trying to change, the only change you get is from primal attraction to hurtful indifference.
The odds of a relationship working are a lot better if you can start out as who you really are and not what some stubborn asshole wants you to be.

That struck my funny bone. You're probably right though. How can you have a relationship with someone who thinks your gonna fry?

I can understand her concern. She believes that the man she loves is damned if she doesn't help save him. It is an act of love in such circumstances, to try and convert him.

That said...if a relationship makes you less happy than you were is it a good relationship to be in? You had made an acceptable compact with the world you found yourself in. You were happy with what you perceived as your place in that and the beliefs which you had formed.

Now you're in tears? Now you are worried and upset and reaching for something which it doesn't honestly sound as if you actually believe in.

Personally, I would be inclined to draw a line in the sand: This is me. This is what I believe. I've listened to what you believe...I respect it but I don't share your faith. If that's a problem then this relationship has no future. If the relationship is to have a future, it must do so without these attempts at conversion and persuasion.

That would be my line. Because right now, she is (however innocent the motive) fucking with your head.

Whether there is a life after death or not, none of us know. I believe there isn't. You presumably believe there is (in some form). What there is after life, we cannot know. How likely is it that this one of the many cults/faiths/confessions that exist, or have ever existed, has got it right on the button?

What you can be sure of, is the life you have. Make this one a happy one and that much at least can you give yourself. If this situation is making you unhappy, then I suggest you rectify it.



[eta] welcome to the Cellar btw *smiles* stick around, but whatever you do don't ever open that red door over there...

Spam? Et tu, 3-ft. :whofart:

I believe he was expressing an opinion about need to run.

Far and fast.

With the shinest and newest sneakers.

At bargain prices.

Available now.

With easy credit terms.

Bumping up walking shoes to running shoes. That was my take.

And I agree.

There's gotta be a joke in here somewhere, regarding sneakers and the other foot. :lol:

Foot 3's pissed 'cause he has to spend 50% more than me on skids.

I buy three pairs and it's like getting the second pair for twice the price, or something like tht

Well you clever shoe buyin' son of a gun. ;)

I figured foot kept one bare for ah... punting.

You mean like Tony's Toes?

(incidentally, I searched all over the internet, and apparently not ONE person has posted a picture of the stupidest fan product ever)

Very much like that although pigskin isn't what is generally punted on the cellar.

Sometimes it's pig skin. ;)

Sometimes it' s my face.

Nay, no punts for Shawnee. :headshake

Sure, it's the MO for a couple of folks I know here: one from whom I expect nothing but extreme cruelty and disregard for anyone but themselves, and one who I never expected could have such a hard heart. The hardest of hearts, in fact.

I'm pretty sure punting Shawnee is on the shalt not list right after intolerably irritating.

There're a few dwellars I'd consider punting, Shawnee isn't one of them. Besides, even if I were to punt someone, it would be the taco, paco not the face.

Converting is like waking up. One day you know there isn't a god and nothing you do matters, the next you see there is and it seems so very simple you wonder why you never seen it before. Being said if your violently woken up it sucks.

If you want to go forward pray and let go of your fear.

If you don't , then don't.

As followers of Christ one must except that some people even people we love will go to Hell and if we have show our teachings and there is still refusal then there is nothing more that can be done.

For what you believe, true believe is your choice and no one can make your choices for you.

That's Bullshit.

Thank you.

Nobody burns.
You say God is the father. Maybe.
A father would burn his kids and torture them for eternity if they didn't worship him? NOT!

NOT! NOT!

No they're right capn'
Converting is like waking up, when I think of all those years of pain I went through, when the truth was so obvious. I prayed, I went to church, I read my Bible, I found excuses for all the evil dumbshit and hypocrisy in the world. That stuff was so that the devil could take my soul!
Then over time, I slowly woke up, there is no "god" or atleast not the one made up by any person. There is no need to worry about heaver or hell, because they don't exist. There is no psycho overbearing judgmental god testing your faith. This is life, there are good and bad people, there is a not a reason for random bad stuff that happens. Its not some god playing with our lives, its just stuff that happens.
Ah...what a relief, what a burden was lifted from my shoulders. I am in control of myself, I don't have to play to some god's sick wet dream of love.

That being said, converting for the sake of a "love" is a bad idea. Your religion, what you choose to believe should be for yourself. What's important in the relationship? Good sex! And if religion is messing that up...get it the fuck out!