Who can tell me sth about the American Dream
 

Who can tell me something about the American Dream.?its origin,its symbol, etc.Where can I find some information or knowledge about it? Thanks in advance. ;)

*sniff* *sniff, sniff*

Smells like a school assignment to me. Try google and the research librarian of your local library.

Read John Steinbeck's "Of mice and men." It's a nice read.

Where the American Dream comes from is nearly impossible to answer - you'll have to figure that out on your own.

What is this, a 9th/10th grade assignment for U.S. history?

The American Dream is something Americans Dream about before they realise that a four-bed semi with a white picket fence and a pink twin-set for the wife doesn't bring you happiness.

What's a four-bed semi? I can honestly say that-as an American-I've never dreamed of a big rig.

A four-bedroomed semi-detached house. Sorry, that's more of an English Dream. I should have said a Big House.

With an in-ground pool? Now we're talkin'--! :D

The American dream is a quaint hang-over from the past when this was once the land of opportunity. People could believe that with hard work and a bit of luck they could better their position in life and that their children could get an education or enter into a skilled trade and become secure members of the middle class. We used to have a democracy that was responsive to the will of the people and manufacturing jobs that paid workers a decent wage. We were a nation of doers and producers with equal opportunity for all. Now we no longer produce anything but wars with other countries. Our jobs have hemorraged out to other countries thanks to te phenomenon of out-sourcing. Our so-called representatives on the state and national level respond to who-ever has the most money to give them, not the common voters. The American public is coming to understand this, and a smaller percentage of eligible voters participate in each major election that comes up. Public schools have deteriorated and the wealthy send their children to private schools where they can get a decent education. If you work hard, you may raise up to a manager's position in McDonald's, and maybe if you and your spouse both work at two jobs, you can buy a second hand car and a home in a trailor court. That's the reality of the American dream today.

Horatio Alger.

Yeah, right. :cool:

The American Dream does not come to those who fall asleep.

He came to waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too cynical a forum to ask this question, but a provocative one it is.

The American Dream is a hangover from Ford Model-T, social contract days. The idea was that in a capitalist system, things are tough, but if you put forth the extra effort you can get ahead and eventually own your own house, car and little white dog, and use them as tools to aid you in raising a happy, healthy family with decent, law-abiding and satisfied children who will help to take car of you when you grow old. For a fair example of the American dream (from a Scottish perspective), try to take the sarcasm out of the opening monologue from the movie <i>Trainspotting</i>:

Choose life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television. Choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit crushing game shows, stuffing junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose a future. Choose life..But why would I want to do a thing like that?

That, my friend, is the reality of the American Dream. Where going a little further, doing a little more used to get you ahead, there's no way now, because the system demands so much of you that it's impossible to give that extra effort. You will most likely have rent to pay, or, if you're lucky, a mortgage, and paying that will require every ounce of force you have in you. And when you spend all of your life with one company, working 50 hour weeks, struggling, getting that promotion here and there and trying to carve yourself out a little niche in the world remember that there's someone in India with the same skills as you willing to work for half the money, and he will most likely end up with your job.

Mari, what the hell are you talking about? There are many opportunities available in America today. we can argue about the causes all year long, but you are right, the public education system is a mess. but it isn't just rich people that pull their kids out of the system for alternatives.
Everyone has the opportunity to go to college in america. their are countless scholarships, grants, and loans available - and lets not forget about the GI bill. Their are still many jobs and skilled trades that don't require a college degree that pay very well. the middle class does still exist although the gap is widening between what many define as wealthy and the middle class. some of that is due to time. (you can look at it like a golf swing or a baseball swing. one degree of difference at the starting point can become a vast difference at greater distances. if money is the ball and the distance traveled is time it works out to be about the same due to the power of compounding and freedom to play a little more loosely).


we still are. we do and produce different things but that is due to technological advancement and globalisation. BTW, i don't like the fact that our industrial base is gone because i think it will eventually bite us in the ass if there is ever another large scale war. but the simple fact of the matter is that it isn't just america that is losing manufacturing jobs. it is a global phenomenon attributable to increases in productivity, technology, etc.


you're right - many if not most of the politicians are self serving chumps. they get to keep their offices because too many people take the defeatist attitude that you can't change anything so why try. the ones who get out and vote are often the ones who throw their vote to the person promising to make their particular situation easier with new programs whether or not that will actually help the nation as a whole.

BS. some people do have to work very hard and they will end up in a management position at McD's. good for them. they won't be wealthy, but they show up to work every day and contribute to a productive society. Are you aware that a Jack-N-The-Box manager starts at $35K/annual? That isn't too bad for a starting position that doesn't require a degree and has a distinct promotion track and good benefits. it may not be prestigious, but it is a necessary job, so don't disrespect the guy handing you your fries. He/she is working to support his family. and if it takes 2 people working 2 jobs to by a used car and a trailer - then they should probably seek some guidance about what they are doing wrong. but again, you are belittling the people that choose to live in mobile home parks. many do it not because they are downtrodden people, as you seem to think, but because it is a cost effective form of housing.

No that is your perspective of the American dream today. Most people get up, go to work, come home and spend a little time with their families before bed and then rinse, lather, repeat. they don't sit around thinking their lives suck. everybody wishes they had a little more, but most people are generally pretty happy in their lives - at least the ones who don't fall into the trap of playing the victim.

the reality is the American dream was popularized and defined by the rags-tor-riches tale. those things did happen. those things still happen. Most people then and now didn't grow to be extremely wealthy. but everyone has the opportunity to take their shot at it. success in achieving goals will always depend on the same thing. A) having a goal B) working hard to achieve it C) lucky turns at the right time. you can still achieve your goals without C - but you might not be as wildly successful. good luck trying to achieve anything without ingredients A and B.

Mari - you are a highly educated individual with a lot of compassion for those around you but have fallen prey to the cult of victimhood. negativity will hold you down faster than anything in the world.

With a two-year degree (and the State will pay for it!) you can start out making 50K--but you gotta be willing to wear the scrubs. You gotta be willing to work weekends and nights. You gotta be willing to put up with a lot of BS and you've gotta believe in the divinity of doctors----just kidding!

...just kidding about the divinity of doctors thing. Everything else stands.

Oh, and Mari--looks at the Saudi's--they don't PRODUCE anything--they've a natural, limited reserve of oil that is the end-all, be-all of their economy. That's IT. Nothing is "made in Saudi Arabia" and they do just fine, don't they? They lucked into an economy. Does that make them any less ambitious than anyone else? You tell me.

That was a self-fulfilling statement if I ever saw one.

And people drive crappy old cars because they like the rust.

Voting tweedle dum or tweedly dee this time? Nothing will change until fiat currency collapses under the weight of stupidly populist policies from both parties.

The middle class is dieing off the western world over, the money gap is widening and will only continue to, end of story.

Hm. I wonder what side of the gap you will be on, Jag. I mean, most people like to think of themselves as at least able to support their families--even if they do live in those really tacky trailer parks...right? Have you ever had a friend who lived in a trailer park? I've gone to many in my professional life and I have a cousin who lives in one. They are amazingly regular-type people. Some really do live there by choice. Not everyone is a snob.

i drive older vehicles even though i have the ability to buy new and more upscale. i don't place my value in shiny new cars. the new smell goes away and then what do you have, but another used car.

and mobile homes? my parents and many like them sold their very nice stick-built homes to live in mobile homes because they are functional and free up a lot of money.

If you want a good look at how the American Dream of old is fading away read Nickle and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich. Gives you a rude wake up call and a greta look into the lives of people who dream the American Dream but will never make that dream become a reality. Its a very sobering book.
Didin't like the author much, kind of a whiner/self rightous liberal.

You have to move to India, China, or Mexico if you want to live the American dream. But seriously though there's a good book on this subject. It was written in about 1979 but it's still very apt today.

It's called, "Restoring the American Dream" by Robert J. Ringer

There's a touch of difference between selling your nice house and spending your retirement moving around to living in a trailor park, let's be straight here, you're dodging and weaving to avoid the point. Given the choice, somewhere between the vast majority and nearly everyone would prefer to live in a house than a trailor park.

Brianna: Not entirely sure what your point is. I'm sure some are perfectly nice people, I don't see how that impacts on my argument either, nor my socioeconomic status, which could best be described as 'complicated'. I've been rich and I've been poor but it's a trend with statistical proof, not a snobby observation.

The "American Dream" is what you make it. it isn't the same for everyone. everyone dreams of a better life for themselves, some people help themselves to achieve it.

My limited understanding is that those who tend to romanticize the "poor" (however you define it) often have never dealt with them in any meaningful way. I don't know anything about you, save a few remarks you've made, but my myopic eyes were opened a tad after I started actually WORKING with the poor, sick and downtrodden. I've been in a few situations I wanted right out of...I'm not proud of that, but I found I could not be effective in those particular instances. Have you ever been to a home where there were dog feces and cockroaches all over the floor, countertop, bedspread, and cooking area? To my middle-class eyes those things were intolerable...to those who lived there it was normal. How to help? I wanted them to clean up and they thought I was a "college-educated" butt-insky sent by the State. What would you have done? (I realize I am off topic, sorry, but really, what would you do??? I had to scour myself every night to be sure I hadn't brought cockroach's into my home)---I apologize, in advance, for my middle-class bullshit.

You are correct when you ask what this has to do with anything--I am muddling my meaning which is this: you kind of come off as a snob, Jag, whether you are one or not. The first credo in working with the poor, sick and downtrodden is to be as one of them. That has been my experience and I've been doing it for 20 years. They've not much patience for "idea's"--that's all I mean.

What's your point though? People live in squalour, seen plenty of the same in the 3rd world, not in the first but how does that relate to the growing gap between rich and poor? I didn't go into nursing or social services for a reason.

Amen!

it's a very tough gig. I don't know, Jag, but with your smarts and your travel and your opportunity...I just wish you could see what I have seen. How do you want to help? Or, maybe you already are? I don't know. i just find it easier, in myself, to talk rather than do. That may not be your way, but, sadly, it is the way of a lot of us. (talk instead of DO)

It's a trend, a massive economic change with as far reaching effects as many that have come before it, I can only ride waves as I see them, not make my own, at least for now . Bruce is right when he says I'm more worried about trends and movements than people, for now, I can't really do much but if I can get clued up enough about the mechanics behind the curtain, maybe one day.

Brianna, if one doesn't have the motivation to wipe the dog feces off the floors, beds and counters, that's not because they are poor. There's something else at work there. You don't need money to clean up piles of shit in your house.

Yeah right. Have you ever tried getting one of those scholarships or grants lately? Or even better, try paying off those student loans before you drop dead at age 80. In most most countries in Europe it costs much less to attend college, and is sometimes free. Not here. Yeah, you can go for the GI Bill, if you don't mind taking the chance that you'll get blown to bits in Iraq first.

And I'll bet ya that guy working that great job as a manager at Jack in the Box comes home and drinks a six pack every night because he's so miserable he has such a shitty job. And BTW, you can't just walk through the door and grab one of those $35,000 positions--they still want years of experience, good people skills, and a good business sense. Not everyone has those things.


No, I think she's fallen prey to the cult of reality. There is no such thing as the American Dream for many people without a certain level of education, or the intelligence to achieve that level of education.

I agree--great book. Definitely worth the read.

Too true, Glatt. What I am saying is that it: (dog feces, cockroaches) have become normal to many. How to combat that? how to say, "well, your mother and father were pigs and not the norm and thank God we are here to help!" without causing a war? you've no IDEA how many people live like this!

And I'll bet ya that guy working that great job as a manager at Jack in the Box comes home and drinks a six pack every night because he's so miserable he has such a shitty job.

Jesus, stop projecting. Just because you think it's a shitty job doesn't mean everyone does. Perhaps he's grateful that he was given the opportunity to have a job at all instead of being born into a caste system where he was destined to live on the street no matter how hard he worked. When I worked food service, I was the only teenager in the place. Everyone else there were twenty-something and middle-aged guys supporting their families. Some were going to school, some were taking that franchise's management training courses, and some were happy where they were. One guy was officially retired, and worked there for the comeraderie and something to keep him busy. I was the brightest person in there by a LONG shot, but they were all hard workers and they were all happy.

And BTW, you can't just walk through the door and grab one of those $35,000 positions--they still want years of experience, good people skills, and a good business sense. Not everyone has those things.

That's right. They have to work hard for those things--they have to be willing to work for years to get their experience, they have to practice being polite if they have a temper, they have to do their best to learn from their managers. Intelligence is not a requirement to be successful--sincerity and hard work are.

People who don't believe in the American Dream are always native-born Americans, never immigrants. What a surprise.

Geez, relax. I am not putting anyone down. I worked fast food and various retail jobs all through highschool and college. I don't know what kind of Disneyland of a fast food place you were working at, but it's pretty hard for me to believe that "all" of your co-workers were "happy." I worked with people of all different ages, and almost none of them were satisfied working fast food jobs. The hours are long, the pay sucks and people are rude to you. We all worked there because we HAD TO--not because we wanted to.

What a cliche. Are you saying someone with an IQ of 75 can be successful in the business world? How about someone who speaks no English? They might be sincere and hard-working, but I can pretty much guaratee you they're not going to be successful, at least not in the FINANCIAL sense of the word.

Wow! What's the program? I want to call up my voc-rehab counselor and see if it's something I might be able to do given my current limitations. Does the job command that much money for an inexperienced grad anywhere? Please give more details.

OK, I'm calling you on that one, Lookout. First of all it is a non sequiter to reply to a statement that the quality of public education is going down in this country by saying that the person making this judgement has "fallen prey to the cult of victimhood." If you disagree with the things I wrote in my earlier post, simply say so and then give the facts to back up your opinion. The only people who feel that it's acceptable to make a condescending statement which turns a debate into one of personalities are politicians, and look at how much respect we have for all of THEM.

Here's some facts for you: In New York City tuition at private schools, K-12, has reached $26,000 a year. Meanwhile just outside the Bronx in Mount Vernon there is a public school where 97% of the students who attend are black. One out of ten of these students live in a homeless shelter. Visit that school's library and try to find books about or by Langston Hughes, the great black poet. Nor are there books about Rosa Parks, Josephine Baker, or Leontyne Price or any other famous black Americans. The newest encyclopedia in the library dates from 1991 and has the volumes "b" and "r" missing. There is no computer or card catalog in the library and almost all the books date from the 50's and 60's when the student body was mostly white. You want to tell me which child is going to score higher on his SAT's (if he even takes them)? The one from the private $26,000/yr school or the child who attended the one in Mount Vernon? These are FACTS* and have nothing to do with the "cult of victimhood."

Here's another fact: 44 MILLION Americans, eight out of ten of them in working families, are uninsured and cannot get even the most basic medical care from the "best system of medical care in the world." What has happened to the "American dream" for those 44 million Americans?

Fact: The gap between the rich and the poor in this country has become greater than at any time in the past 50 years. We have the worst inequality that way of ANY OTHER Western nation. The gap between the top 20% in income and the lower 20% has increased from 30 fold in 1960 to 75 fold today. Put this together with the steady dismanteling of public services like schools and health care and tuition assistance for higher education and this gap becomes an obscenity. Is this the realizatiion of the "American dream"?

I look around my country today and I sometimes feel something very close to despair. We are loosing something very precious and something that we should all cherish deeply - democracy and the "great American experiment" in order to satisfy the desires of the corporate world and a wealthy minority for ever more money and ever higher profits, be they deserved or not.

I am a realist, Lookout. Fate has forced me to open my eyes and see things that I never noticed back in my snug little middle class world while you are still singing yourself to sleep at night with the fairy tales the power brokers want us all to believe. I am a victim only in the sense that anyone who recieves an unlucky blow from fate is a victim. But I will be god damned if I allow my voice to be silenced by some foolish comment by a member of the complacent middle class I once belonged to. I'll see you in hell first before I ever roll over with my paws up and whine that I'm a helpless victim. Nice try.

*The facts I cite in this post can be found here:http://www.inequality.org/moyerstranscript.pdf

yeah, i did. i did get a couple of small scholarship offers, but i didn't commit myself enough to earn the large ones. payoff student loans? yep, i've done that too. i just made my last payment last month. oh, yeah i had the GI BIll too. I thought a college education was important enough to risk active duty so i enlisted. like a lot of people who are there right now and are happy with their decision.

and throw in a dash of arrogance to make it just right... damn garnet don't you realize that everyone's job seems shitty to someone? sure he has to deal with rude condescending customers who think his choice in careers sucks, but he probably feels pretty good knowing he made an honest buck. i've got friends that make half what i do but make fun of my shitty job. they couldn't imagine dealing with the people i do, the hours i do, and being stuck at a desk for days at a time. some of them think physical labor jobs suck but my dad and his friends are pretty satisfied that they toiled in the factory and provided for their families. my point is - who do you think you are to declare another person's job or life shitty?

damn them for wanting someone qualified for the job. it doesn't take that long to get the job when a person decides to make it a career. you can earn your way into the position faster by skipping the 4 years of college and working your way up there often times.

everyone has access to the "dream" (i hate the term - i think access to opportunity is better) not everyone chooses to pursue it. and you can't measure one person's success against another's. not everyone has the same priorities.

welcome to the real world. we all do what we do because we have to. you can either snivel and whine about it or accept the shape of the world and make the most of it. your attitude and outlook in life rest entirely in your hands. and success is more dependent upon those 2 things than maybe anything else.

sure, i saw forrest gump. but seriously - not everyone has the same abilities so not everyone will have the same career. that doesn't make the landscaper who may be a little slower or not know english and less successful in life than the local banker, unless you only define success in terms of $$$. i have met more people who make $40,000 who are genuinely happy than i have people who make $200,000 - and i meet a lot of both of them. each has to deal with the difficulties unique to their positions.

the american dream is about finding happiness and fulfillment. the journey is as important as the destination and will be different for everyone.

It's become a nightmare. :D

Mari--if you have an IQ of 80 you can do the nursing program! hell, you don't even have to speak English and you're hired!! Witness the import of foreign nurses...hell, yes you can get in on it! I'll bet someone with two master's degrees can manage a little ol' associates. Even WITH CO2 poisoning. Have you seen the RN's this country has been churning out? All you need is a heartbeat.

OK Mari, let's take a deep breath on this one. i went back and reread my post. i didn't type anything that i believe is condescending but if you believe that was my intention - i apologize. i didn't insult you - i merely responded to your points. and if you reread - i agree with you that the public education system sucks.
and if you want to convince yourself that i live in some sheltered little world immune to the dark scary world you live in i don't know what else to tell you. you have no clue on my life experiences so you may want to be careful on that, it hasn't been all roses and butterfly kisses, but it has been interesting so i wouldn't trade it for the world.
I made no attempt to silence your voice - i welcome any viewpoint in a discussion. disagreeing with you does not equate to silencing you.
as far as seeing me in hell? thanks but i'll pass, i don't think we believe in the same hell anyway.
anyway - the difference between a realists and the victimized is that a realist sees the pitfalls and injustices of the world but marches on anyway, realizing that though the world affects them, the results may be outside of their control, their actions are entirely within their control.
a victim sees the same injustices and wanders through life pointing out how things are unfair and if only_________ then they would be doing better, but ________stood in their way and there is really nothing they can do about it because the unfair system is what it is.

Er.... that's CO poisoning, CO2 wouldn't hurt a fly. We breathe it out as a by product of the respitory process after every breath we take in. Minor point, but if you are somehow affiliated with the medical end of things, you should be aware of this. I know several RN's and the training they undergo requires a MINIMUM of 4 years. They are required to pass classes in chemistry, biology, and mathematics which require a brain to go along with the heart beat. Not a single one of them started out making $50,000 a year either. What are the sources for your statements?

[quote=marichiko]Here's some facts for you: In New York City tuition at private schools, K-12, has reached $26,000 a year.


Mari--I went to fancy private schools--it didn't cost my parents 26,000/year. Of course, I'm not in NYC either. My rent isn't anywhere near NYC rents, either--you are comparing apples to oranges if you compare NYC to the other parts of the country. It's difficult for some people, especially well-educated people, to take responsibility for their lives. They keep thinking someone else should be doing for them.

Too bad.

It is condescending to state "you but have fallen prey to the cult of victimhood. negativity will hold you down faster than anything in the world." Calling someone a "victim" is a fighting word in my part of the world, and I bet it is in yours, as well. When you say someone is playing out a part in a "cult of victimhood" and that negativity is holding them down, you invalidate that person's statements as mere trivia - artifacts of an emotional mentality, rather than as observations made by the intellect. In this manner, you call upon others to dismiss my words and, in effect, silence me.

I realize that your overt intent was not to be mean spirited. However, you should realize the implications of your final sentences.

There is a very fine line to draw between realism and victimhood. I think that there are more instances than we care to believe when the reality IS that "things are unfair and if only_________ then they would be doing better, but ________stood in their way and there is really nothing they can do about it because the unfair system is what it is."

In my opinion the victim makes this statement and then lies down and lets the tanks roll over him. The fighter may make this statement, but stands up anyway and at least maybe shoots out one tank before being rolled over by the rest. There are some truths that we would all rather not face and it is easier to deny them rather than face them; harder to realize them and give in to despair; and most difficult of all to stand up to them knowing that defeat is almost a certainty, but fighting on despite this.

Our country is in a state of crisis and a few people are finally beginning to awaken to this fact. I am pretty cynical about the possibility of turning things around, but I'd rather die standing than live on my knees.

you can become an Rn with a 2 year associates degree, or, pass a test that the state requires if you are from another country. Sorry about the typo on the CO/Co2 thing--see, you are smarter than I am already! and you're brain damaged! what do you know!~! YOU CAN be a nurse!!


Really, HONEY, you don't have to have a bachelor's to be an Rn. Your friends are fooling you!

Um-you drive, don't you, Mari? Doesn't that take some critical thinking?

My sources for salary: myself. Starting out, recent measly 2 year grad, I made 50K. You didn't mention the working weekends and nights, though, did you? Yes, I worked weekends and nights. Probably not to your liking, doing that. Some people make sacrifices. How long have you paid into SSDI?

That's you. You're pro-war, too. If you had a kid just graduate from high school and wanted to go to college, would you encourage him or her to enlist to get funding NOW? Calll me crazy, but I personally would not risk my LIFE to get a college education. It's Iraq now--who knows where George will have soldiers dying in a couple years from now.


Are you psychic? How do you know that all these people "feel good" about their jobs?

You should go back and read my posts before you make reactionary, accusatory statements like that. Like I stated, I worked fast food and retail jobs all through college and, in my opinion, those jobs were shitty. Most of the people I worked with hated their jobs too. Why would I put someone down for working these jobs when I'VE WORKED THESE SAME JOBS MYSELF? No sense insulting myself when I've got wonderful people like you on this forum to do it for me.

Sweetie, I'm quite familiar with the real world, thank you. I've worked full time since I was 16. Nobody ever handed me anything.


Your platitudes are starting to become a little tedious....

I kind of agree with lookout, different people are happy with different things but I do think he/you are being a tad idealistic.

Call me crazy but I don't think people should have to risk getting shrapnel to the face to get a college degree, the Economist loves to bitch about funded Unis in places like the UK and Australia but crap, it's better than the US system. Not perfect but better.

[quote=Brianna]"don't bother. I'm psychic." Good.

I think the American Dream these days requires a lot of hard work, making carefully-considered choices and catching a break.

*thinks* Yeah...I'll leave it at that.

Then I accept your apology. You're welcome.

But isn't that what it's ALWAYS required??

Well, at least you're witty if not psychic.

YOU don’t, it’s not YOUR problem, if you don’t want it to be. And it's nothing to do with the "American Dream". The AD is about having the opportunity to do it for yourself.
This is not supposed to be a socialist country. There never was a guarantee, only an opportunity for those that could measure up. I’ve no obligation to take care of you, nor you, me.
Not everybody can qualify or afford to go to Harvard, but we have an extensive system of state universities and community colleges, that are affordable and give you a good basic education. More importantly they give you that sheepskin.
We used to have citizens that took part in the political system and wouldn’t reelect Marion Barry.
They were involved in their community and didn’t care who got kicked off the island this week.
They used to go over their kids homework, talk to their kids teachers, and go to PTA meetings.
They used to care about their community and their country, they shopped at local merchants and bought American made products.
But now,....It’s me, me, me, mine, mine, mine, gimme, gimme, gimme, more, more, more.
More than they earned, more than they need, more than they deserve. :mad:

very well said bruce.

Probably...but folks tend to overlook the latter two.

No, it's not supposed to be a socialist country. This thread, however is about "The American Dream", which on many accounts seems to be a thing of the past. In our parents' generation, a young man of average intelligence with just a high school diploma could get a job in a factory, move up if he wanted, support his family and retire from that same job when he was 55. That, I would say, is what most of us see as the "American Dream." Was that socialism? Today, the factory jobs are in China, the average person changes jobs every few years and many of us probably won't get to retire until we're 70 (if then). Yes, it's still up to each individual to make it, and you're not responsible for anyone but yourself. I would just say that the "American Dream" has lost a significant amount of its luster.

In our parents' generation, a young man of average intelligence with just a high school diploma could get a job in a factory, move up if he wanted, support his family and retire from that same job when he was 55. That, I would say, is what most of us see as the "American Dream." Was that socialism? Today, the factory jobs are in China, the average person changes jobs every few years and many of us probably won't get to retire until we're 70 (if then).

Ok wait. First of all, your statistics are way off. From the Employee Benefit Research Institute: "According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, in the period 1950–1955, the median age of retirement was 66.9 for men and 67.7 for women. By the period 1990–1995, it was 62.7 for men and 62.6 for women. The median retirement age is projected in to be 61.7 for men and 61.2 for women during 2000–2005."

Second of all, I agree that the average person nowadays does change jobs much more frequently than in the past. But that doesn't mean that it's more difficult to be successful or support your family in that type of economy. It just requires a different mindset. I have numerous friends of average intelligence who graduated high school 6-10 years ago and did not go to college. The ones who worked hard are very successful today. One of them has moved her way up from cashier to HR Administrator, in 6 years at the same grocery store. Her husband approached a small construction company and worked for a year for very little money on the understanding that he wanted to learn everything there was to learn--then he left to start his own contracting company, and now the two of them live in a house worth more than $300K. Neither one of them went to college, and neither one of them is a genius by any means. But they worked hard and took opportunities where they were.

As an afterthought, garnet, I have a question: Why is it that a modern manager of a Jack-in-the-Box must drink himself into a stupor over the suckiness of his job, but a factory worker 50 years ago must have been doing a jig over the opportunity to grind steel all day?

I'm not sure how old you are, but my parents did not retire in 1950-55....

Ok, I'll give you that I'm 5-6 years off. I might add that for the years you are quoting people get something called Social Security when they retire. My particular demographic will not retire for another 25-30 years. With the large number of baby boomers retiring shortly, will I ever see any of the money I've put into the system? Probably not. Will I most likely have to work longer than age 62 (the average age of today's retireee) because of this? yes, probably.

Bruce, I understand that you strongly disagree with my political outlook, but with the greatest of respect, don't you see the extreme dissonance in your attitude? Either you give a damn or you don't.

If you wanted to create a strong country, one where it was possible to dream dreams and with enough hard work and courage, make them possible, where would you begin? Wouldn't it be with the PEOPLE of that country? A country's people need to be educated enough to make intelligent decisions for themselves and for their communities and their nation. They need to be healthy so they can lead productive, useful lives. They need to share a sense of purpose and unity which will allow them to pull forward together, rather than pull apart into fragments alone. They need to share a sense of values about justice and dignity and honor and self respect.

Like it or not, we are all inter-connected and we all depend upon one another. This is not socialism, this is how the human animal evolved - to be a part of a society and not a lone wolf howling in the wilderness. It is also pragmatic. No man can be all things for himself alone.

If I am childless, why should I have to pay taxes that will help put my neighbor's children through school? If for no other reason then my own good, that's why. The neighbor's child will grow into the adult who gives me medical care or repairs my car or becomes the minister at the church I attend or repairs the lines which carry electricity in my home. What a large return on such a relatively small investment! What a bargain, I'll take it! If you don't want it, go live in a shack somewhere without electricity and do without medical treatment and in your solitude curse God, and die. But don't force me to bear the burden of your foolish choices.

Why should I pay taxes to insure that we have universal health care in this country? If for no other reason than my own good, that's why. The man whose medical bills my taxes help pay will be rehabilitated after a stroke or a heart attack and he will go back to his job paving the roads in my town or fixing my roof or discovering a cure for an illness that I have come down with myself. That man's year's of training and education won't be tossed aside because he has no doctor to treat him and without medical care, he can't work. What a great return on my investment! What a bargain, I'll take it! If you don't want it, go live in your house with no plumbing on a rutted out dirt road and die slowly of your own chronic disease. But don't force the consequences of your own poor choices on me.

What segment of our society gives the least and takes the most? It is not the poor of our country, but the wealthy with their endless tax breaks and insider deals and their condos in Aspen and their expensive gas guzzeling cars and their exclusive gated communities. THESE are the Americans who cry, "More, more, more," and "me, me, me." The black school child who wants a decent education is not the force which is bringing America to its knees and taking tax dollars which give no return from your pocket. The one who is robbing you blind is the corporation with its off shore banking practices, its tax dodges that it got via its very own paid congressman, and the jobs it outsourced away from your community and off to some third world country. The man who needs insulin for his diabetes is not your enemy, but the man whose income puts him in the top 5% of the nation's most wealthy and pays fewer taxes than you do is.

Why is it that so many conservatives who shout their patriotism so loudly, seem to hate the very people who make up the country whose flag they wave? I believe in the American people. We have a strong work ethic, we go to church and school, and we are by and by large honest. The people of this country have been decieved into believing that their fellow Americans are the enemy. Nothing could be further from the truth and yet, nothing else could better serve to further the ends of those few at the top who do not cry "More", but merely seize it from our unresisting hands instead.

What happened to you? Such hostility.

Amen! Thank you.

not if you are doing what you are supposed to do and saving and investing for your retirement years. the people who didn't save and invest rarely get a comfortable retirement at any age, during any time period.

so on that note, what are you doing to prepare for your retirement?

What happened to you? Such hostility.

Um, nothing happened to me. I didn't intend for that phrase to be read with any hostility at all. :confused: I guess I should use more emoticons. But it's a serious question--why do you see the modern grunt worker as "miserable" but the grunt worker from the past was satisfied? I'd be curious to see an inflation-adjusted comparison of their earnings, I bet they weren't too disparate.