London Bombing
 

It now seems beyond question that my home town has been targetted by most likely islamic extremeists with a series of bombs on the underground and busses. The same ones I take nearly every day. I was lucky enough not to be in london at the time and thankfully I've managed to get in contact with most of my friends and everyone has so far, been ok.

I hope they hunt down and punish the dirty sons of bitches that did this without sacrificing the liberties that they hate so deeply, I hope the G8 summit still goes ahead and achieves something towards tackling the real problems in the world today and I hope that everyone you know in London is ok.

also - everyone I've spoken to says the emergency services have done an amazing job getting the situation under control quickly and cleanly.

edit - added emphasis, i can't quite express the anger or the sense of helplessness.

I was going to ask you to check in man.

I hate this I hate this I hate this I hate this I hate this :rar:

"Our desire to protect our way of life is stronger than their determination to destroy it."

Probably paraphrased, a visibly shaken Tony Blair.

I'm hearing about a second wave of bombings including leister square & something at canary warf, if you are in or know anyone inside the square mile get inside or get the fuck out.

Belmont Club:

But the good side of it:

Blair's full statement:

Glad you are alright Jaguar. I was thinking of you as I heard this on the radio this AM. Hope everyone close to you is OK too.

I know exactly what you mean about the feelings of anger and helplessness.

In the DC metrorail system this morning, they are running more announcements than usual asking passengers to keep an eye out for suspicious activity and abandonded packages, etc. No hightened police presence though.

ditto here jag, now i do have a question...where is the lake district? today is the 6th and NBN is there......

Glad you're okay Jag - just read that Blair left the G-8 conference and is on his way home.

London bombing...islamic (lower case on purpose) group claims responsibility...hmmm, what a shock. Every hot spot, every bit of mass violence seems to involve our "friends" the muslims. I'm am sick to death of it, not that it matters. I can not comprehend a religion that advicates death and distruction when dealing with intollerance. Encourages the systematic destruction of Gods one greatest gift, human life by strapping on a bomb and blowing themselves up killing inocent men, women, and childern. This is not a religion, it is a cult. They claim allah, god is telling them, directing them to kill all those who don't agree with their way of thinking, I can not wrap my mind around that concept at all. My God, directs kindness, mercy, grace. True, my God once told Saul to kill all the Amalikites, every man woman and child, but that was old testiment, that was the old God. I have no repect for the muslim faith at all. There are those who claim that islam is not violence and hate, BS. Prove it! Those who make those claims (who out number the ones who don't) refuse to do anything to stop this mentality for... well for fear that they too will become targets.

Today London, Iraq, Spain. Tomarrow, New York, Seattle, Phoenix. It's only a matter of time folks. 300 dead mostly childern, in coordinated theme park attacks. muslim extremeist claim responisbility. I can see as plain as day.

The bottom line is this...those nations who embrace islam are about 1000 years behind the times. Because of this mentality, they are impoverished, jobless, opressed, and miserable. The young who are angry are looking to blame someone. The easiest target? Anyone but them. This war against terroristism will never be won the way we are going right now. The only way it will stop is from within the islamic religion itself. The muslim pople themselves have to stop it, they have to want to stop it. It's like the war on drugs, it will never be won with conventional means. But if they don't, there is one other way that will eventually come into play, and that is when the entire world gets tired of the sensless violence and turns completely on the muslim nations to drive them out. I, personally don't advocate this path, so just calm down everyone, however, I see it as enevitible. It's on the horizon...it's only a matter of time. It's human nature.
http://www.cellar.org/images/newersmilies/rant.gif

This concludes our rant session for today.

I say we throw them all in FootX3's handbasket.............

(Just got a call from my friends in London saying they're okay - wonder if they can catch their plane back to the states tomorrow?)

Jaguar... I'm glad you're okay. I thought of you as I read the paper this morning.

I'm shocked, dismayed, horrified, angry and I hope that that whoever did this is caught and receives a severe punishment. Who cares about fair and just punishments right now, I'm so upset by this. Many of these areas where bombings occured are areas where I frequented when I lived there. While my stay was rather short, I do consider London home in some ways. :( :bawling:

Ferret out the murderers and the wannabe murderers, trap them, hit them. Mafia style.

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660411.stm">Muslim leaders condemn attacks</a> (BBC)
<a href="http://www.mcb.org.uk/home.php">Muslim Council of Britain "utterly condemns today's indiscriminate acts of terror"</a>

If you want additional pounds of flesh, you can collect them yourself.

The problem is not the religion, but the acts carried out and beliefs held by extremists "in its name." The perpetrators of today's actions have as much in common with mainstream Islam as Fred Phelps, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have with mainstream Christianity.

BBC is now reporting 30 dead from the explosions.

BBC News

how many more will have to die before the rest of the world finally sees these people for what they are and what they represent? i'm sorry about your town, jag. we have a common enemy, if nothing else. here's to the heroes of Britain, who will rise up just as ours did after 9/11.

Define "these people" and do it carefully.

Jaguar - thanks for posting, i'm glad to hear you are safe. DanaC doesn't check in much anymore, but i hope she does sometime soon.

Hobbs- it is an extremely rare event when i agree with VSP, but this is one of those times. these attacks weren't carried out by "muslims", "islam", "allah", etc. Islamic Extremists (most likely al quaeda) who distort the islamic faith through their twisted view of how the world should be chose to kill people. they have little in common with the millions of everyday muslims who woke up and were disgusted by the news just as you were today.

I am a Christian. the guy who was killing abortion doctors called himself a christian. i prefer not to be lumped in with his homicidal stupidity.
One of my friends is mormon. he prefers not to be lumped in with the polygamist, incestuous fools in colorodo city, AZ.
Wolf is a pagan. she prefers not to... sorry my ignorance of her faith prevents me from carrying this to the end.

the point is that for evey religion or philosophy there are going to be people that will twist and distort it to fit their political or social view of the world. we can't fall into the trap of hating "muslims" because some shitbags from a virulent strain of that faith feel it necessary to go around killing innocent civilians. that would be just as ridiculous as a non-american hating all americans because we are wealthy capitalists raping the world for our entertainment. stereotypes are bad, mmkay?

that being said, my views from the past haven't changed. we should hunt down those involved in this and fuck them up. the problem is that they expect to be hunted down and killed, it is part of their plan to create a global revolution against those they oppose. in the end a decision will have to be made - are attacks like these crimes? or are they acts of war?

if they are crimes then we can only respond by searching for those that were involved, charge, convict, and punish them within the justice system. rule of law and all that jazz, you know?

if these are acts of war, then game on. you hunt them down, you kill them. people who choose to associate with them? kill them too. someone gives them safe harbor? kill them. at some point in time they will all be dead and no one will like the odds of rising up in their place. of course, there are problems inherent in that solution, too.

It could be worse. At least they're English. j/k

Seriously though, I highly doubt this attack would have occurred if it weren't for Bush going to the UK and for the UK supporting Bush in his outrageous, insane, and unconstitutional war of aggression in Iraq which has no legitimate justification.

That being said, I still hope they find those responsible and hang them up by their short and curlies, or just let the families of those they killed beat them to death with baseball bats.

Instead, I'll let you guess. Here's a hint: they're the ones blowing shit up.

One of the freedoms they want to take away is your right to automatically side with the people who are attacking you and your allies. You should be worried, too. Why is there always SOMEone who wants to turn the spotlight around on political correctness instead of the really bad things that are happening in the world?

Then your previous comment is inane, as the vast majority of the rest of the world _does_ view people who blow up commuter vehicles as being ignorant, mass-murdering fuckwit criminals, which is what they are and what they represent.

But thanks for playing.

So if you knew who I was talking about, and agreed, was there any point to the wholly inappropriate, confrontational tone of your post? Other than to get someone to say something you could label "racist" and have a knee-jerk leftist orgasm over?

Everybody needs to see this movie.

"Muslims" are no more responsible for today's horror than "Christians" are for shooting abortion clinic doctors.

It's about individuals, not groups.

thank you Wolf. (you PAGAN, you. :lol: )

But since the topic has come up, here's your racist comment (go get the vibrator first, I'll wait).

Islamic terrorists are the enemy. Sorry wolf, the word "Islamic" cannot be separated from "terrorist" because the religion is not one of peace -- it's one of warfare, murder, cowardice and hatred. You who are so quick to attribute these things to Christianity...why are you so afraid to do the same for Islam? I know there are huge numbers of muslims who are not guilty of murder and who would never consider the act (or would they?) But they follow a religion that is almost totally dedicated to the eradication of Jews and Christians, and has never hidden the fact. Sure, thugs have appropriated it for their own murderous agendas, but that doesn't mean that the original agenda wasn't equally disgusting.

People who quote Leviticus and the harsh punishments for sin in the old testament refuse to quote the same passages in the koran.

You want to eliminate Christianity from public places, but turn your head when Islamic-rooted hatred actually results in the deaths of thousands. You don't want to take the fight to the enemy, you want to take them to court and put them in therapy to deal with their anger-management issues. Watchdogs constantly go to Gitmo to make sure the air conditioners are at the right setting, while the occupants plot new ways to get bombs on your busses, your planes, in your neighborhoods. People are so fucking blind.

If I knew who you were talking about in your vague generalization of "these people," I wouldn't have asked for clarification, which should be fucking obvious. Your statement made no sense with the least objectionable interpretation ("these people" == today's bombers), and if you were casting your net wider than that intentionally, I'd just as soon see you state that explicitly before calling you an asshole for doing so.

We've already had one "Islam and its followers are evil" yutz in this thread, and whether or not you're #2 is up to you. Referring to me as "siding with the attackers" makes you a gold-plated shithead, but there's still plenty of wiggle room as to what additional kinds of shithead you may be. By all means, continue digging your hole.

EDIT: Ah, I see you didn't disappoint. Bravo!

I suppose it was the fucking Norwegian Bikini Team that's been doing all this, then?

I don't want to fight with people on this forum, really. I was trying to show support for jag (!) and the people who were attacked, and as usual, someone turned it into an orgy of PC self righteousness.

I understand turning the other cheek. But at some point you have to look at WHO IS DOING THE KILLING. The people you wish to embrace are plotting your death right this minute. When will you see? They don't want to be your damn friends. They don't want your compassion, they don't care whether you go to bat for them against the old mean Republicans. They want your body blown to shreds for Allah.

no, it was A FEW SELECT EXTREMISTS who warp the name of Islam by using it as an excuse for their atrocious actions. Repeat after me: NOT ALL ISLAMISTS / MUSLIMS ARE MURDERING WACKOS - JUST A FEW WHO GIVE THE REST A BAD NAME. got it? good. class dismissed.

I suppose some people here are dimwitted enough that I need to say:

"NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD"


fucking A.


You actually think I'm full of hate and ignorant right-wing propoganda, don't you? You actually think that I get off on people dying. Retards. If the Muslims wanted their religion to be one of peace, they would take it back from the people who are running it now. They don't, so they won't.

It is not a handful of extremists. It's the party line.

I'm going to have a stroke. Chill time. I get mad at the bastards waging war on our country, and everyone else gets mad at the people who get mad.

that isn't true mrnoodle. in the earliest days of Islam, not only did the islamic tribes co-exist with the jewish community, they provided protection. jews and christians are referred to as "people of the book" in the earliest islamic teachings. that means that they worshipped the same God, but had strayed in the specifics of the faith.
it wasn't until later that treachery created a deep chasm in islamic/jewish/christian relationships.

INDIVIDUALS perverted, and continue to pervert, the islamic faith. INDIVIDUALS perverted, and continue to pervert, the christian faith.

quit getting so wrapped up in "muslims are bad, evil people". focus instead on the fact that many people are bad, evil creatures. some of these happen to use religion as their rallying point so that they can gather sheep to their murderous flock. the average muslim/christian/jew isn't sitting in their basement working on a dirty bomb. they are going about their daily lives doin the best they know how to do, trying to keep their families safe from the scum and villainy that has, and always will, plague humanity under different names.

if we allow paranoia and hate to make us see a terrorist behind every muslim, then they have won, we have lost and the world is just waiting for it to become official.

hunt down and destroy the guilty. don't disparage the innocent. don't allow righteous anger to twist into blind hate, otherwise you become that which you oppose.

I guess I know that on some level.

But I'm scared, because a large chunk of the world wants me dead. And whether or not the original intent of Islam was good or evil, we see what it has become. Arafat was a demi-god. bin Laden is a rock star. al Jazeera lies, and people hang on its every word.

Who the hell are we supposed to be profiling here? If you go to Iran, and scratch any muslim, underneath you are likely to find...if not a terrorist, someone who believes what the terrorists are doing is just.

That's just the way it is. Our view is colored by the fact that we live in a tolerant state. We just can't imagine that a whole people would want us dead. But most of em do. They just do. I didn't make it up.

NO SHIT, SHERLOCK.

Believe it or not, if I flip over my ACLU card it doesn't read "Al-Qaeda Supporters' Club Local #405" on the back. My support or lack thereof for Dubya, his war and his agenda wouldn't mean a flying fuck to J. Random Terrorist; if I'm in the wrong bus or plane or building or block at the wrong time when something happens, I'll be just as dead of a motherfucker as if I'd been screaming "ALLAH AKBAR" when it went down. The people who are enabling and encouraging violent actions are sick and disturbed and need to be taken down hard. If they catch those responsible for today's bombings and hang bits of them on Nelson's Column, I won't complain one bit.

There's the key phrase: "those responsible." Islam is not responsible. Iraq is not responsible. Iran is not responsible. The Middle East in general is not responsible. The Muslims of the world are not responsible. An organized group of violent assholes is responsible. That group is at whom I direct my venom, not at those around them who share nothing with them except geographic proximity or a common religion.

I may disagree with Lookout regarding how to _rectify_ the situation and seek to avoid future attacks, but at least he and I both put the emphasis on "terrorist" and not on "Islamic." Failure to condemn Islam and its proponents does not constitute "turning the other cheek" or "embracing the attackers," and fuck you very much for suggesting such. If you feel that a "drive the Muslims into the sea" response is more appropriate, that's your business, but the truth is so far away that you can't even see it from there.

Islam is no more or less violent than Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, or any other religion. Islam does not teach hate anymore than Christianity does. Those who claim such only prove their ignorance of the subject.

This has nothing to do with Islam and has everything to do with U.S. foreign policy and sticking our noses into areas where it doesn't belong. It has to do with the U.S. invading nations that never posed a threat to America and murdering hundreds of thousands of people, and trying to force a government of our choosing on them. It has to do with decades of U.S. intervention resulting in millions dying in the middle-east.

The U.S. is not a Christian Nation, it's not a Muslim Nation, it's not a Jewish nation, etc. and it's about time the morons out there trying to spread U.S. Policy abroad got that through their thick skulls.

For the record there have been at least 100 Muslims murdered by Christians for every Christian murdered by a Muslim.

[quote=vsp]

There's the key phrase: "those responsible." Islam is not responsible. Iraq is not responsible. Iran is not responsible. The Middle East in general is not responsible. The Muslims of the world are not responsible. An organized group of violent assholes is responsible. That group is at whom I direct my venom, not at those around them who share nothing with them except geographic proximity or a common religion.

[quote]

what you said. sorry if I misunderstood you noodle - I agree. terrorists are bad. they need to go bye bye. okay, I'm done now. back to you.

What these particular murderers do have is a powerful weapon in their religious perversion. It provides them human ammo, their sense of justification, and a mutated PR hook. So how do you promote Islamic moderation and squelch the extreemist expressions? What gets often dissed as wimp ass "therapy" is actually an important tactic here. I'm not saying you shouldnt fight back strong, take out the murderers, but fight smart, on lots of fronts. its not war vs police, its war and police and intelligence and economics and media and politics and global will and...

First, let me apologize for calling names. It's dumb.

Secondly, let me reiterate that I don't hate anyone. Nor do I think that all muslims should be eradicated (although they feel we should).

But the sooner we realize that we are ALL targets, and 9/10 muslims in ANY part of the world wouldn't so much as shed a tear at our death, the safer we will be.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone's not out to get you. I can see this kind of reaction after Pearl Harbor.... "hey now, let's not become hateful, like the handful of extremists who bombed our military base. What did the president do to make them mad and CAUSE them to do this?"

maybe your mistake is in believing that most of the people you meet on a daily basis aren't of the very same nature. if you scratch the surface of the average american, do they wish death or at least a bad case of athlete's foot upon someone? i think you might be surprised.

there are some rabid "kill all the dark skins" types, that we choose to ignore. there are more vocal "kill the muslim" types, even more "kill the muslim extremist" types, and so on. we are people. people across the globe aren't all that different.

and "profiling"? i don't know that we should be profiling anyone. be aware of everything around you. be aware of the people around you. is that guy with the dark skin a friendly siek or a rabid wahabbist with a stick of TNT jammed up his rectum? what about that white guy? is he an accountant moving into a new home, or is he a nutjob with a van loaded with explosives intended for a government building?

be aware. be wary. don't be paranoid.
no they don't. they don't know you or give a damn about me. they are living their lives. a bunch of people want a bunch of other people dead. the trick is to separate those with ill intentions from the rest, and that is impossible if you think they are all the same.

if that's true, where's the outcry from the muslim rank and file? where are the blogs, the radio and TV interviews, the books and magazine articles from muslims denouncing the killing?

Fair enough.

And we always have been.

Most of us here in America were somewhat sheltered from the realities of terrorism before 9/11, and it was such a rude wake-up call that I suppose I can't blame people for still being freaked out. However, I don't think there's a square inch of turf in the world that could truly be considered "safe," unless it's out in the middle of some Aborigine plateau that few people even know exists, but where the spiders and snakes are more likely to get you than anything else.

Some clips from today's British blogs, snitched from another site:
This is life in our modern world. We are humans; we adapt. Doesn't mean that we have to like it or sit back and take it when people do awful things, doesn't mean that those responsible shouldn't pay for their crimes, but let's not act like this is some kind of new 21st-century phenomenon.

See, you could yell that into my ear for the next ten years and you still wouldn't be reaching me.

A lot of Americans hate Iraq/Iran/etc. because they're convinced that they hate us and would like to see us dead.

A lot of Iraqis/Iranians/etc. hate Americans because they're convinced that Americans hate them and would like to see them dead.

Think about that for a minute. Sounds like a self-perpetuating fallacy on both sides, doesn't it?

I strongly recommend actually reading The Koran.

It's not what we're all told it is, you know ... most of the Evil Rhetoric™ that we hear about is the result of exortations of individual clerics and sects.

The Book itself is pretty mild. Occasional smitings by God, relatively few exhortations to smite, and clear indications that there should be good relations with Jews and Christians.

Of course, I could have read the "watered down for better PR edition." I did buy it after 9-11.

This is horrible, horrible news. In addition to the dead, 700 people were injured. I am so glad Jag is okay. I beleive that DanaC lives in the English countryside somewhere, so she should be OK unless she chanced to visit London that day. My heart goes out to the people of the UK.

We cannot hate the people of any given faith just because of the actions of some extremist element. The families of innocent civilians killed in Iraq hate all Christians. The people of the Western World hate all Muslims. Such blanket hatred is only a recipe for more attacks and more deaths of innocents.

The mistake, if it is indeed a mistake, of the Bush administration is that they have not gone after Bin Laden. The conflict in Iraq has become a quagmire with no real purpose that I can see other than to secure our interests in oil supplies from the Mid East. In the process, we are only sowing more hatred for the West in the Muslim world. Terrorist attacks such as the one in London are the result.

I very much hope the authorities in the UK track down every last person who had responsibility for what happened in London today. The UK doesn't have the death penalty, so I hope they all end up in a maximum security prison for life with few amenities. I have no sympathy for ANY group which commits acts that lead to the deaths of children and women and male non combatants. People who carry out such atrocities should be dealt with no mercy.

wolf: :notworthy

self-perpetuating, obviously. Fallacy? Ask the people in the back half of that bus. For every muslim that publicly supports freedom and peace, there are 40,000 in the town square chanting "death to america"

while we sit in our comfy flats and houses and delude ourselves into thinking that they either don't really mean it, or are talking about someone else. we have become so numb from our pampered lifestyles that we don't recognize the real danger anymore. We lack vigilance. in a week, no one will even look over their shoulder while riding the tube. it's just too comforting to think that these events are random, rather than a systematic eradication of your values, your safety, and your freedom. If you want to know who is on which side, look at the faces in the crowd at the next 'death to whoever' rally. they're avid, fanatic, and glowing with pride over the actions of this "small but well organized" movement.

I bought a copy when a girl I know was set to marry a muslim guy. We were trying to talk her out of it (he wanted her to wear a burka, didn't let her go out with friends, etc.), but she said the same thing -- "It's not what you think, read the book."

So I did. When I get home, I'll pull it out and read the passages again. But they were straightforward and left no room for doubt. And they commanded the followers of Mohammed to declare jihad on anyone who didn't follow Islam. Straight out.

i think i've been pretty clear about my own faith in the cellar. i'm a Christian. one of those "double belly button types" and whatever you want to call us. so keep that in mind here.

if christians don't support blowing up abortion clinics and shooting doctors where was the outcry from the christian rank and file? where are the blogs, the radio and TV interviews, the books and magazine articles from christians denouncing the killing?

we live in a society that is full of small c christians so when a "christian activist" kills a doctor, or taunts an abortion patient we look at them and say "look at that stupid, asshat, activist." and then we groan at the ribbing we will get from those that like to ridicule christianity on the basis of an individual's actions. when a dumbass tv evangelist announces that FL will be destroyed because of our decadent society's acceptance of homosexuality, we don't call the newspaper for an interview, or hold a protest to clarify what most christians think. we turn the channel, roll our eyes and wait for the idiot to die and the whole thing to blow over.

these people live in a society that is 99% muslim. when a "muslim extremist" blows something or someone up they say "look at that stupid, asshat, exremist." and then they grimace at the way the rest of the world will look at them the next day. when a cleric calls for "death to all ____" they... see where i am going here?

keep things in context.

I'll stick with "Islamofascism" as a term for the school of thought. It is connected to hard-line Islam and is distinctly fascist in nature, even connected in schools of thought and insane hatred for the evil Other.

1. Today's terrorists killed the bus riders.
2. The terrorists are self-identifying Muslims.
3. Generally speaking, Muslims want to kill the bus riders and people like them.
...
1. Eric Rudolph bombed abortion clinics.
2. Eric Rudolph was a self-identifying Christian.
3. Generally speaking, Christians want to bomb abortion clinics.

Still want to follow that line of logic?

Fortune

a writer for Fortune magazine was on a bus a few minutes behind on that exploded. here is his quick story. nothing breathtaking or sensational, just a quick article by someone who was there and who coincidentally lived in NY on 9/11.

Citation please?

c'mon Dar you should know that 87.63% of all statistics in the cellar are made of whole cloth.

Be honest. You pulled that number out of ... thin air didn't you?

Does anyone know of any polls that have been done in the last five years of Near East/Mediterranean Muslims as to pro/anti American leanings? If we don't have at least some rough numbers for Iraq, how can we hope to know how much effort it's going to take to find closure there?

Crusades + 2 wars in Iraq + Afghanistan + putting people like Saddam, Khadafi, etc. in power, training Bin Laden, arming Israel = far more Muslims than any Christians killed in the WTC bombings, other bombings, etc.

Lookout's comments about statistics got me to checking and I discovered a very cool site with all kinds of statistics from a variety of sources, "Historical Atlas of the Twentieth Century"

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/20centry.htm

Here's a sample from some of the most recent Mid East wars and conflicts:

Gulf War:
The US lost 147 killed in battle and 289 dead otherwise. The other Coalition members lost 92 dead.
Shortly after the war, the US Defense Intelligence Agency made a very rough estimate of 100,000 Iraqi deaths, and this order of magnitude is widely accepted.

So that's 528 of "us" versus 100,000 of "them" according to the bleeding hearts over at the Defense Intellience Agency. Comes out to 200 of them for every 1 of us.

Afganistan/Soviet Invasion
Britannica Annual (1994): 1,500,000 Afganistan combatants plus civilians
(20 May 88 Chicago Tribune) Soviet deaths: 12-15,000 killed
100 of them for every 1 Soviet

Iraq Invasion
ESTIMATED TOTAL KILLED (12 June 2005)
USA, Coalition and contractors: 2,131 (ICasualties.Org)
Iraqi military during invasion: 7,600-13,500 (Proj. Def. Alt., NY Post, Guardian)
Iraqi insurgents: 10,000-15,000 (CNN)
Iraqi security forces, post-invasion: 1,300-2,267 (NY Times, CNN, ICasualties.Org) Civilians: 22,248-25,229 (Iraq Body Count)
I used a middle number from each estimate to come up with a conservative total of 52,131 Iraqi dead as of June. This does not take into account the high number of deaths due to the UN embargo during Saddam's regime.
So an extremely conservative 25 of them for every 1 of us.

You know, when it comes to killing, the West does seem to be doing a pretty good job.

Radar may have grabbed his statistic out of the air, but he does seem to be good at catching fly balls.

Sorry to interrupt the discussion, but I just wanted to say I am glad to hear you are okay, Jag. When I heard about this I wondered. My thoughts are with you, and those close to you for your feelings of anger and helplessness. May you heal expediently from the emotional damage this sort of thing causes.

In light of the current tangent, crazies come in all shapes, sizes, colors and religious flavors. I have met many Muslims who aren't extremists and don't have the mindset so many of these attacks personify. I have met Christians that don't believe it is right to blow up an abortion clinic.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Iraqi Security Forces aren't being killed by our occupation forces - they're being killed by insurgents because they are perceived by the insurgents as being traitors/American pawns.

Technically you should take those numbers out of the last set of equations, thus proving that either we are being more careful this time out, or our efficieny is dropping terribly.

In theory, no, Security Forces aren't being killed by us except maybe a case of mistaken idenity here or there. Still, they wouldn't be getting killed at all but for the war and they ARE MUSLIM deaths.

Your point is valid enough, though. The ratio remains about the same without those 2 or 3 thousand, so we can leave them off if you wish.

We also have to add the 200,000 who were bombed for 12 years straight, starved, and kept from life saving medicines between the 2 gulf wars.

Oh, my little sampling was far from a complete one. I imagine if someone had the time to wade through every last statistic on that site the overall ratio would be more like 300 to 1.

Anyone with the time and energy is welcome to correct my perception if its too far off base.

because Lord knows their leadership had nothing at all to do with that.

And our leadership wouldn't either! :eyebrow: