Better to lie, or to break trust?
 

This chain of thought grew out of a conversation that my friends were bouncing around talking about a friend of ours who just found out his girlfriend was cheating on him. (This post is written from a male perspective, assume he/she, his/her, wife/husband where appropriate).

First, I believe most people could, in the right situation, cheat on their partner. But that's part of the deal when you're loyal... you're careful to avoid those situations. Kinda like when you're on a diet you don't stock the fridge with a case of doughnuts. It's a lot easier to *not* eat a doughnut when there aren't any around.

Second, you can't judge a person by a past mistake. Just because they once stole something, or did drugs, or cheated on their partner, that doesn't make them a life-long klepto, addict, or serial-cheater. Everyone makes mistakes, so accept them for the person they are now and not by a lone mistake in their past. (But watch out for the true kleptos, addicts,and cheaters along the way).

Third, if trust is broken in a relationship it can never be fully rebuilt. And I'm not talking about small things... I'm talking about real breaking of trust. Could you ever fully trust your wife again after she spent a weekend in Cancun sleeping with your brother? Even if she was totally loving every day for the rest of her life?

So, the basic assumptions are:
- Potentially anyone in the "wrong" situation might cheat in a relationship
- A mistake in life doesn't necessarily condemn a person for eternity
- Once a trust is truly broken it can never be rebuilt

Considering those assumptions, put yourself in this hypothetical situation: if one time you "accidentally" cheat... maybe you drank too much, never intended it to go that far, blah blah blah... but you wake up in the morning regretting everything, wishing it'd never happened.

And in that moment you realize how much you love your partner, and how much it'd hurt to lose them. It's not like you wanted to cheat. If you hadn't gotten so drunk you would have pushed away their advances. Further, now that you HAVE cheated you're confident you'll never cheat again because you've learned from this unfortunate mistake.

Now consider the different courses of action. If you confess then you'll break the trust. You'll weaken the relationship, or she may leave you entirely. You could also keep quiet about your "moment of indiscretion". And if she finds clues you might even lie to cover it up.

You might even try to justify it all. You're not lying to protect yourself... you're lying to protect a strong, healthy, happy relationship! To protect *her* happiness, as much as yours!

So... the question is... considering all of the above, what would you do? Confess immediately? Don't mention it? Maybe even lie? Because if she does leave you, then what about your next girlfriend? You cheated one time, but you can still build a trusting relationship with your new girlfriend, right? So if you're "allowed" to build a new trust with someone else, doesn't that mean you're still an OK person? And if you're a good person why not protect the relationship you already have?

Also consider the flip side. What if your partner cheated on you in the above situation? Which course would you want them to follow?

As a last point of consideration, think about your past & present relationships... have you ever said something untrue? Maybe you told your girlfriend you liked her perfume, or outfit, or a meal she worked on for hours, just because the truth would hurt her feelings? Or maybe you didn't tell her about the cigars at poker night because it'd lead to a fight since you weren't supposed to be smoking? You justify lying to protect her feelings, and to keep the relationship free from strife. We've all had those moments. But where do you draw the line?

Oh, the moral dilemma!

As a side note, considering the topic of the thread I just wanted to add that I've never cheated in any of my past relationships. This all just philosophical meat for you to chew on. I've never even come close to cheating, or had a partner cheat on me. (That I know of!) ;)

Oh God, I have a reallly hard time when it comes to trust. It was bad enough when I found out that I couldn't completely trust my friends at one time. I now hold them at arms length (at least the ones that I still talk to), so I guess that would give someone some insight on how I'd feel in the event of an S.O. cheating on me.

It just seems a bit "weak" to me when I hear the cheater say to their partner, "But, I didn't MEAN to do it! We were drunk, things got out of hand, etc., etc." Now the issue is can you trust that person again with alcohol? Being around others while drunk? The fact that they WERE drunk? Does that signify a deeper problem? Sounds far out, but IMO, it could be very real.

Halle Berry said it best in the movie, "Boomerang":

"What do you know about love? What could you possibly know about love?!? You know, I'm sick and tired of men using love as if it's some disease you just catch. Love should have brought your ass home last night!!"

tell the truth. or it will eat away at your soal until it feels like your heart is just a rotten tomato sagging in your pathetic lying chest.

I have just been through this. I was living with my wonderful partner.. who i would have NEVER even contemplated that i ever would or could cheat on him. keeping it in just affected everything about anything. i nearly went insane with guilt.

I ended up moving out because i couldnt handle what i had done and now.. months later the rumors have spread and because i was stupid enough to think i was protecting him by not telling him, loving him so much i couldnt stand to see hurt in his face, but i now see it even more amplified, as he tells me (last night actually) that i have broken him and he never wants to see me again.

I thought i could pretend it was a bad dream. like it never happened. then i tryed to tell myself it was no big deal.. everybody does it. then i thought.. if i move out.. we will have time apart and when i return the love wil be stronger than ever.

I had never cheated before and after experiencing the hell and trauma it places upon your concience, your relationship, your work, your EVERYTHING, i never ever would again.

if i had of been honest i might have at least salvaged a friendship, forgivness, or at least understanding. now we have nothing.

even if you can hide what you have done from your partner forever, you can not hide it from yourself. Often the most painful truth that exists, is the one inside of you.

I would tell the truth, and I would rather that my S.O. do the same. It would hurt me more to happen to find out later, some other way, that not only did she cheat, but she hid the truth from me. It would be more painful to me and make me wonder, "Has she cheated since then? Is there anything else that she has hid from me?"

While I am not denying that finding out the S.O. cheated would hurt, it would be easier to recover from it and heal the relationship than if the S.O. had also hidden the truth. To me, at least.

As an additional thought, it's also possible that hiding it may make cheating more tempting when a relationship has hit a rough spot...hey, I hid it once, I can do it again. Just once more and I will stop.

I have actually had something like this happen to me. Long before I met HP I was engaged to another man. One day while I was out of town I got a call from him telling me he had gotten drunk a month before and cheated on me with a friend of mine. The only reason he was telling me was because her boyfriend had found out and was going to tell me as soon as I got back. I guess he figured it was better to hear it from me then from someone else. I was so mad I was calm if that makes any sense, and actually watched the whole Miss Teen USA pageant as it was just the right amount of mind numbing stupidity I needed at the time. I stayed with him (mostly because he threatened to kill himself if I left him) but the trust was never the same. I stayed with him for a few more months but it finally ended as we just couldn't get past it. About 8 months after we broke it off I was talking to the girl he had cheated on me with (strangely I never blamed her and stayed friends with her, only not as close) and she informed me that all that time after the incident that we were still together he was telling her that if she would have him he would break it off with me in a second, and that he didn't love me and only wanted her. I have no reason to not believe her on that point.
Now when it comes to telling to other person about something like that I have to say it depends on the situation. If you did get drunk (or something else that alters you ability to say no) and you TRULY regretted what you did after and you have a stable and loving relationship with your partner, I say don't tell them (if you can stand the guilt as Sun_Sparkz pointed out). Learn from your mistake, make sure to never put yourself in that position again and try and be the best partner you can for the person you are with. I know the pain it causes to be told, and in my case I was glad he told me as I wouldn't have wanted to marry him only to find out this was a pattern and that he didn't love me (which I believe would have been the case). But if you truly love the person you are with then I say don't tell them and yes even lie to protect them.

I agree. Trust is hard to regain. Someone may promise you that s/he will never do it again, but wasn't the promise to be faithful implicit in the "we're exclusive" decision, or the marriage vows?

Don't get me wrong...I think that trust CAN be regained, but it takes a very long time, and it's not something that should be rushed. I mean, the cheating partner shouldn't just expect you to "get over it, because s/he doesn't intend to do it again"...trust has to be regained through demonstrating trustworthy behavior, consistently over a long period of time.

I've never cheated. I could never imagine doing something so hateful and hurtful to someone I purported to love. I've gotten damned drunk, but I've never been so drunk that I've "taken someone home," whether I was single or partnered. I can't imagine sleeping with someone unless you could see yourself still with them in five years, but that's just me. I was never a "play the field" kind of person to begin with. The whole idea of cheating is foreign and repellent to me. It's the ultimate slap in the face. Therefore, I wouldn't do it. I'd break up with the person first.




*gives ladysycamore a standing ovation for posting that quote, and files it away in her own collection* :thumb:



Sidhe

"Accidentally" (what a crock) or not, if you have cheated you have already violated the individual's trust.

Fess up and face the consequences.

Re: Better to lie, or to break trust?
 

I think some others might be agreeing with me here -- that is bullshit. You can't accidentally cheat. If you're really committed to your partner, you just don't put yourself in a situation where you might lose control. And if you do, you should own up to it, at least in your own head, and admit that you did, in fact, do something stupid on purpose.

I think it'd be best to tell, since good relationships have honesty as their foundation. But it sure would be pretty damned hard to own up to. Much easier to lie and avoid the emotional pain.

Nono, I think you guys are being too harsh. Yeah, just being drunk isn't a good excuse at all. But still, it's possible for a situation to roll along and next thing you know you're doing something you never intended.

Anyone remember those old psychological studies from the '50s where they were trying to find out how the Nazi party in Germany could "force" so many people to do heinous acts? They tested "normal" people who went through a series of actions which ended in submitting a man to a supposedly fatal electrical shock. And because of the environment & the coercion these average people went right along with it. Sure, even during the act they didn't *want* to kill anyone and they felt it was wrong... but they still went through with it. And that's murder, I'm just talking about sleeping with someone.

You'd be surprised what you're capable of in the right environment, with the right amount of coercion. The whole process that's leading up to it you're just allowing the person/situation to dictate your actions because each one is just a tiny baby step, and individually really not that bad at all. "What's wrong with some body shots?" And next thing you know you find yourself naked in a hotel room with a bucket of vaseline, 4 midgets and a donkey. :(

I really believe that anyone could cheat with the right environment. But do I think that's an excuse? Fuck no. If my S.O. came to me sobbing about some "accident" where she cheated on me, I do not care what her excuse is, it's over right then and there. Get the hell out. You should have been smart/loving/loyal enough to not get your ass into that situation in the first place.

Anyhow, I used to totally agree with you guys. Until I started thinking about this argument I always said that if my S.O. ever cheated on me I'd want to know right away. But now, I think that if my S.O. ever cheated on me and it honestly was a one-time thing for her, and she NOW knows how much she completely loves me, wants to stay with me forever, and will never cheat again...

I wouldn't want her to tell me. Because even if I *did* stay with her, (slim chance) I know I'd never trust her again. And it would eat away at me until finally love is dead. So truthfully, I'd rather be in the perfect relationship and have total love and trust... instead of doubts. Ignorance is bliss.

But yeah, if I'm with a person that is a true serial-cheater I'd want to know right away. Walk away as soon as possible.

Re: Re: Better to lie, or to break trust?
 

Is it honesty or is it faith that make the foundation? Maybe it's faith in their honesty.:haha:

Personally, I wish she'd never told me. It was never the same after that. Love, yes. Life, yes. Trust, no.

---------------------------------
(originally posted by juju)

"You can't accidentally cheat. If you're really committed to your partner, you just don't put yourself in a situation where you might lose control."
-----------------------------------


I agree with that completely. Nothing more can be added. That's about as clear as it gets.




--------------------------------------------
(originally posted by xoxoxobruce)

"Is it honesty or is it faith that make the foundation? Maybe it's faith in their honesty."
---------------------------------------------




"Faith in their honesty." Well put. I think you hit the nail on the head with that one. When you think about it, that's exactly what makes a good foundation of a relationship. You have faith that they're telling you the truth: about loving you, about being faithful, about ....


Sidhe

Re: Re: Re: Better to lie, or to break trust?
 

That's so true...
I think (being a victim and a cheater), for your own sake you have to tell when you've cheated. The fact not telling the truth is another point in betraying your love.
But maybe if you're the victim it's better not to know what happened...

I dunno...I think I'd rather know. I think that admitting what you've done has a twofold purpose:

It gets things out in the open. It's not eating away at the cheater (because I'm sure all the sneaking around has got to be nerve-wracking after a while), and the person being cheated on doesn't have to wonder anymore (because, on some level, they ALWAYS know, whether they want to face it or not).

It clears the way for either making it or breaking it (the relationship, that is). If the cheater admits what s/he's done, and comes clean because they want to work things out, and the cheatee is willing to do that, then things can move forward from there. Or they can decide to part ways. Counseling of some kind should be a condition of working things out, though.

Some people are just cheaters...they do it for the excitement, the thrill of being able to get someone new into bed, because they don't want to control their hormones, or because they're just plain asses...but for the one-time cheater, there's usually something behind the cheating behavior--for instance, feeling ignored and neglected, resentment over a long-standing wrong that the cheatee refuses to address, or something of that sort. Counseling can help the couple to address the underlying problems, through a neutral third party who may be able to point out things about the relationship that the couple can't or won't see. A third person can help a lot. If they didn't, people wouldn't vent to their friends. However, friends are on one side or the other. Rarely are they neutral, and that's where a counselor comes in.

I think that if both people are committed to saving the relationship, that it CAN be saved. But it DOES take a committment. And not just for a little while. The cheater has to work to regain the betrayed trust, and not put him/herself in positions that can be construed as conducive to cheating by the partner, or that make the partner uncomfortable. That's just respect for the injured partner's feelings. But the cheatee has to be willing to forgive, too. You can never FORGET something like that, but you have to give the other person an opportunity to prove themselves worthy of trust again.


That's my two cents, anyway....

Sidhe

The only problem with that is that if something was contracted (disease) or conceived (getting pregnant) by that drunken union...well I'm thinking at SOME point the truth has to be revealed.

LMAO that's funny. That reminds me of the man that a friend of mine has been seeing for the last 4 years. Granted, he's married with two kids, but married men seems to be her "thing" (but I digress). At any rate, one day he explained to her about an encounter he had (before he met her) in a hotel in Atlantic City while on a business trip. There was some convention going on, and he met up with a woman at the convention. After spending some time together, they decided to leave. They were both drunk as all hell. She wanted to go casino hopping, so he said he wanted to go to his room to change. She went with him and waited in the bedroom while he went to the bathroom. He came out to see her lying naked on the bed. Well, they had sex and his wife was none the wiser. HOWEVER, the excuse that he came up with to explain this to my friend was:

"Well I HAD to have sex with her because she wouldn't leave when I asked her to, so I figured if I fucked her, she'd leave."


When she told me that, words failed...:rolleyes:

JFDL....

Sorry... I just couldn't help but laugh at that reasoning...only a man would try to get by with that one...No offense to the guys here...


Sidhe

Thats a very good point, one I had not considered.

I agree with you Juju, trust and honesty should be at every relationships foundation. However if you have cheated on your other half you have already broken that trust. My reasoning for saying don't tell is that at that point, hiding it and lying about it is a moot point compared to the larger picture. The trust is broken, any added stuff is just like icing on the cake.

After talking to HP about this, he expressed that he would like me to tell him in the highly unlikely event something like this happens. I have to respect his wishes even if it would be a hard thing to admit having done. Having been on the other side of that table I know how much it hurts. However as I just pointed out, lying about it is like icing on the cake and since the larger damage has already been done, you might as well tell.

It is illegal to discharge a fire arm while performing intercourse.
A little known law in Texas

Sorry, I just noticed that and had to reply...remember that old TV show, "Quincy"? Well, the guy they patterned Quincy after is a coroner in California, and he wrote a book about forensics; he actually got a woman off in reference to the murder of her boyfriend. It seems that the boyfriend couldn't get off unless he had a loaded pistol to his head while performing intercourse. On this particular occasion, he'd forgotten to put the safety on the gun, and pulled the trigger at the moment of orgasm. ( They proved the girlfriend's innocence through trajecory information)

Talk about coming and going at the same time, huh?
People like him are the reason they put "do not use in the shower" warnings on hair dryers....

Sidhe

NBN is in some big trouble, is all I gots ta say.

Oh man that is funny. I read HP your post and all he could say was "people are dumb". Stupid bastard probably scarred his girlfriend for life. Darwinism at its finest.

      Ya know, referring back to the main discussion, to hell with them. Faith in their honesty? What about faith in your own honesty?
      Frankly, to my mind this is all crap. Some problem in the relationship the cheatee isn't admitting too? So freakin' what? I really don't care. I've been cheated on, it's not that I stopped trusting that person to be honest with me, I stopped trusting that person to be honest with herself.
      Just for clarification, I once had a huge fight with a girlfriend and was so pissed I didn't trust myself to be civil in what I said, so I dropped her off at home and left. I had every intention of ending the relationship the next day, and in fact, I did. That night, after the fight, before the breakup, I past on a chance to sleep with a chic I'd had a long term crush on. I did this knowing I'd not get the chance later. (She was leaving, going into the Air Force) I still didn't do it. Not out of a sense of loyalty, I was done with the g/f. It was because of me. My sense of morality. I didn't do it because it would be cheating. Even though it was over in every sense except the official one. It didn't matter. I wouldn't cheat.
      My point, to hell with love for the S/O, show some love for yourself and do what you actually believe is the right thing.
      On the other hand, what do I know? I'm single.

I communicate blunt and honest. I am not politically correct. This does upset some poeple - especially those who need everything politically correct. As a result, my closest friend are fully trustworthy, tolerant, benchmarks of honesty, and well respected. Shallow people are the first to run when confronted with blunt honesty.

Have been here long enough that 'how I communicate' should not need be explained. But it works. Adults do not need things politically correct. Children do. Good people are quite tolerant of diverse opinions. Good people don't have to lie. Yes, if the subject needs be discussed, then don't hold back and don't lie. If one has to lie, then the relationship was not worth 'beans' anyway.

The number of divorces among my closest friends is almost zero - well below the 10% level - after numerous decades. You may not like what I say, but I am going to say it anyway. Only better people have no problem with blunt honesty. The most popular people cannot and don't do this. But then what is more important. Your popularity or the quality of your friends?

I agree with all of that. I agree with your idea of the morality and having a little pride in yourself and doing the right thing. To be unemotional about a very emotional subject, cheating simply makes the cheater look like an asshole. Now, some people don't care if they look like assholes. They want gratification, of physical desire, of ego, or whatever. But the fact that they don't have enough pride in themselves to do what's right IS just disgusting. You wonder, how can someone think so little of themselves that they're willing to demonstrate how untrustworthy they are, and to the person they're supposed to care the most about, no less? If they'll treat their SO like that, damn, what would they do to someone who's merely a friend?

But there IS the emotional aspect to it. If you've been married to/with someone for years, and your investment of love in this person is deep, then you may not be willing to just throw that away. It's easy to say "kick 'em to the curb," but it's not always as easy to do. You just can't stop loving someone....well, I'm sure some people can, but I don't think that most people find it that easy to just turn love off. Sometimes there ARE underlying problems. I'm not saying that makes cheating right, acceptable, or excusable....but if the cheater is truly sorry, is willing to do whatever it takes to regain trust, and both are willing to work to make the relationship better, then I say go for it. Everyone makes mistakes, some more contemptible than others, granted, but a second chance is not out of line if both partners truly want to make it work.

Sidhe

I guess if I was in a long term relationship and I had never strayed before I would have to ask myself why I had done so. If the answer was just too much to drink I would avoid getting into that sort of situation again, get myself checked out at a STD clinic and get on with my life. The mistake can't be undone and why hurt your partner when the answer you would probably get is "why did you have to tell me". If you have children the emotional damage that can result could have a profound effect on them for life ( I speak from personal experience ).

If the reason was something else I would have to reconsider my position in the relationship and see if the time was not right to make a break but I don't think I would still confess to the indiscretion just to the feelings that got me there in the first place.

woody allen

Ok, think about this...

Hypothetically of course, lets say that you had the absolute truth about God, the afterlife, and everything. Now imagine you walk up to a devout Christian (or Buddhist, whatever), and told them that you would tell them truth about the Universe, if they would like. And there are only two answers for them, either God exists EXACTLY as they believe, or he does not exist at all. And this person knows and fully accepts that you do know the *real* answer, and will tell them the truth.

Should they ask you?

If you tell them that God is 100% accurately described in their faith, then they go on believing/praying. Their life doesn't change. But if you tell them that God doesn't exist, and the afterlife is just a dull nothingness... suddenly their life is pointless. Everything was just a big waste of time. That love/happiness/comfort they felt in Church is washed away.

Would it have been better to have never asked? If they never asked, they could go on living their life happy and self-assured in their faith.

So, in the case where life could go on normal, happy, and trusting by *not* knowing the truth... and simple knowledge would ruin all of that... I'd rather not know.

And I'd like to believe that if my S.O. was a liar & a cheater, then I would eventually learn anyhow, and the relationship would end. But if it's a one-time thing and life could go on... why ruin it by learning the truth?

It's the same reason why I will never try heroin. I actually have a friend who used to be a heroin addict. I've heard her describe the feeling it gives you. And life AFTER heroin is hollow. Food doesn't taste as good, sex doesn't feel as good, everything pales in comparison. But if you never try it... food still tastes fine. Sex still feels great.

Ignorance truly is bliss.

Right, there's no problem a couple can't fix with a threesome.;)

If only more cheaters would feel the same way, by which I mean, asking themselves WHY they did it. If only they'd stop themselves BEFORE they did it, and think, "WHY am I considering cheating?"

I don't think that most people really think about it on a conscious level. Or perhaps they do, and find it easier to cheat than to work on the underlying problems....cause, come on....if you're happy, you won't cheat. You won't put yourself in a position to cheat...or at least I think that would be true in general.

However, I think I, personally, would want to know. I think it would hurt worse to find out years later, after thinking that my partner had been faithful, that my partner had cheated. I'd always be thinking, "Was that the ONLY time? How many other times has he done it that he's NOT telling me about? Is he doing it now? Is he planning on doing it again? Why did he do it? If there were problems, why didn't he SAY something, so we could work it out?"

I mean, that line of thinking may be unwarranted; he may HAVE only done it that once....but it's not really something that's easy to think logically about, I guess. I just think I'd be able to get past it faster if my partner admitted what he'd done, and promised to work to make our relationship better, than finding it out later. I'd feel like I'd been lied to the whole time he hadn't told me, that the relationship had been an act or something, and that he was having his cake and eating it too. I think finding out would hurt more than being told. One is up front and honest. The other is sneaky and underhanded.

It's easy to say what you'd do when it isn't happening to you, or hasn't happened to you, though.


Sidhe

Exactly the point when I said Some people are so shallow as to worry about what another will think now; instead of addressing the long term relationship. This applies to both members of that relationship - the cheator and its victim. IOW it is rather important also to be blunt honest even about other things. Blunt honesty creates strength; or eliminates the shallow person in advance. Blunt honesty, no matter how much it hurts, either builds children into adults or drives off those children who fail to grow into adults. Situations such as this would be easier for both to overcome; especially if the mistake is confessed to immediately. If one cannot be blunt honest (immediately) about cheating, then the other must ask (if not assume) how much larger that iceberg might be. Blunt honesty is critical to trust.

Clearly, if the relationship is important and if the 'other' is of that 'quality', then confession up front and immediate is the only recourse. Yes it is hard - and risky. It might drive off your partner. But then only a 'quality' SO will remain - if you are of same stock.

One must have great respect for Hillary Clinton - having gone through everything and still writing in a last paragraph of her book how she still loves the man. Regardless of one's emotional response to Hilary, still, only real people can do what she did - and then publish the admission.

So your saying if your wife said "Man I'm starting to look old." you would say "yes you are."?

Honesty is important in a relationship but there is a point where you cross the line. You don't tell your partner who has just spent 2 hours cooking a romantic meal that it was horrible. You don't tell them that the birthday present they got you (that they spent a week looking for to make sure it was perfect) was the worst thing you have ever received. Forgive me if I am wrong but this seems to be what you are telling us. You seem to be saying that if I tell my husband I loved a gift when maybe I didn't, that it makes me a shallow person. It's not shallowness to want to protect the person you love from emotional hurt, and frankly if you are always saying "well it could have been better" or something to that effect MOST people will eventually start hearing "nothing you ever do is good enough for me" and stop trying all together.

I applaud you if you have found a mate in life that finds your honesty on everything OK, but not every person is in that mind frame. I prefer my husband to tell me he liked something I have put an effort into even if he didn't, yes I know its lying but I still wouldn't have it any other way. Its not shallowness no matter what you might think.

Well, honesty in the big things is important....now, honesty isn't ALWAYS the best policy....sometimes little white lies are called for. For instance, if your best friend says, "isn't my daughter cute?" and you think the child was hit with the ugly stick, you don't SAY so. That's needlessly cruel. There's no point in being needlessly cruel.

But when it comes to major things like faithfulness, I would prefer honesty. It would imply to me that the person is willing to own up to what they did and then we could start talking to find out what to do next.

Sidhe

Hmmm, maybe that's the problem.

I don't say the meal was horrible because if I could eat it, then it certainly was good. I'm just not that picky. Especially if you ate my cooking.

Very close friends recently bought a new shore house. His wife keeps asking me how I like the new digs (which she so loves that she bought it first and told him second). I tell her its comfortable, it practical, its friendly, its a nice house, it will be good this summer. (I also kept telling her when every hurricane was approaching). And then we move on to what it needs. Its not queen victoria's castle even though you might think it should be at that price. She does have some interseting ideas (too much time on HGTV). Not real good ideas yet because I have not seen them - and I say that. But a good compliment must really mean something; is not handed out like penny candy. On the other hand, they also know me.

Her house has a staircase that I fear will cause bodily harm someday. Every time we discuss this house, that is first comment. Some might immediately take offense at such a negative comment. More than anything else, I fear that one stair will create a broken leg - or worse. Am I talking negative? Not about a person. And she does not personally associate herself with that house. She doesn't personally take my staircase comments negatively (but that staircase should feel very insulted). Again, no one is hurt, or attacked - except that staircase that deserves a negative response.

I get this comment often - "when you say you really like something, then you really mean it". It goes the other way as well. With some aquaintences, I regard their compliments with no value because they compliment repeatedly. Some people's opinions don't mean squat - positive or negative - because they compliment with wild abandon. They could be politicians, or gold diggers, or whatever you want to call them. I just say they are OK. After all, they are not attacking someone for no valid reasons. They are different which makes them interesting. They are nice. It was nice to have them around. And I mean that. I don't tell them they will not make my inner circle. No reason to discuss it. No one insulted. No one hurt.

"Nothing you ever do is good enough for me" is just not what I say. As we live together, its good to be together. Maybe some would jump to the above quote if used to being complimented. But I just don't have those people regularly in my world. Again, I am not trying to be popular. Just a few good simple people is fine with me.

White lies? Unfortunately when I catch someone in a white lie, then the person is suspect as shallow. Nice person. Can be nice to have around on a big weekend so they can laugh at my bad jokes. Just not someone who will make my inner circle. And yes, some people do feel insulted by my demeanor - I suspect because they don't even bother to seriously ask for an opinion.

For a special people, I say "I love you" ... and they know I *really* mean it. They know how few get that comment. I guess I would not make a very good Hollywood star. It makes for a rather secure relationship.

But if caught in such serious situation, I tell it all. Others have said, "why did you also say that?" Maybe its my nature. But those in the inner circle must not be deceived.

I should add one additional point. A large group sat about one morning nursing severe hangovers and coffee. Rather surprised me. Everyone excet me had, at one point or another, cheated on tests in school. In hindsight, I guess I should not have been surprised. This may provide perspective to what I have posted here. I am no saint as demonstrated by a recent discussion between Lumberjim and myself - and a few other things you don't need to know. Furthermore I don't want to be a saint. But some people, because of who they are, deserve better consideration. That means telling the truth up front and now. If I did not, then I did not deserve those people. It is my obligation to them. As painful as the truth may be, it is my obligation.

      I'm with TW on this one. It's easy to indulge in a "few white lies," but when are the lies no longer white? Tell someone their cooking is good when it blows and they might serve the same foul dish to their mother-in-law or someone else who might be looking for a chance to be insulting. Plus they might make again for you some time ...       Actually, I'd be more likely to say, "Hey, at least we look old together." I make such two edged comments frequently and usually get a slap (typically on the shoulder) and a smile. Point is, you don't have to lie to be polite. You don't have to lie make someone feel good.
      In the example of the ugly kid, I had to deal with that last year. In spades. I mean this kid just wasn't cute at all. Yet her parent thought she was the most beautiful child ever. I didn't agree, but I also didn't see a need to go "What are you stoned? You got one butt-ugly kid there." No point. Yet never once did I agree either. When pressed I would make noncommittal warning responses like, "No one has ever seen a more beautiful child than their own." Sounds enough like a quote I never got pressed further, and enough like I might not agree that the subject was dropped.
      No, you don't have to lie. If you have to lie to protect someone's feelings then that person must have some serious issues. Or maybe you do. Don't know, never found myself in such a situation.