Choosing a university in the USA
 

oh help!!!!!

is the University of Virginia any good? William and Mary sounds quite Scary...... how on earth do we do this? A zillion websites ranking universities in a zillion different ways.

What's the planned area of study? That makes all the difference in the world. Different schools have different strengths.

The first decision you need to make is: are your kids well-funded enough that a top-ranked school is important? If not, can they pull in a scholarship that makes it possible?

The smart money seems to have it that college education right now is overpriced. From where I sit, major college debt is worth avoiding. Starting adulthood with >20$k in unbankruptable debt seems simply crazy, yet it's being sold as normal.

The most tangible benefits of college seem to me to be: calling another city/town home for 4 years; passing into adulthood with a safety net that is hung much lower than most households, yet still present; learning critical thinking, time management, prioritization, and other fundamental skills; proving to future employers that you can tackle a 4-year project and complete it.

If you're lucky/brave/wealthy enough to get a big-name degree, maybe reputation is worth something. But the point is, the tangibles are pretty much available anywhere, yet clouded by the cult of personality that schools project to make their essentially interchangeable commodity stand out. I'll concede that in some schools it's easier to fall into a community of serious-minded students than others; some places certainly have more peer pressure towards beer pong and football than study. But that has as much to do with the student in question as it does with the environment they are in.

What I'm saying is: look hard at scholarships and state schools. It's too bad you're in AA, since UMich is close enough the kids probably don't want to go despite it being almost certainly a great deal. If they do want to go there, let them move out.

Maybe the actual first question is: what do the kids want in life? Most paths are broadly laid out, anyway; the anxiety and depression come when you're on the wrong one (Johnny T. Welder goes to Med School is just as tragic as the inverse.)

Very well said !

University of Kentucky - now that you're finished laughing...oh, not yet? Ok, I'll wait - you could do a lot worse.

Seriously consider Ole Miss (University of MS). It is always rated in the top 5 party schools. Four generations of my family have graduated from Ole Miss and we all have excellent partying skills. It is always important to choose a school that focuses on the important things in life.

Will she be going Greek?? Also Ole Miss is in the SEC, the only football conference that counts!

UVA is good, but a bit pretentious. It's all "TJ this" and "TJ that." TJ is Thomas Jefferson, the founder of the school. And they won't let you forget it.

Plus, I'm bitter because my kids will never get in because we live in Arlington. They have unwritten quotas they follow.

My sister's a MD/PhD student at UVA. Very pretty campus.

If you can swing it, road trip around to the top choices. Most universities offer open houses several times a year. While a lot of it will be their sales pitch, you'll also have a chance to get a good feel for the campus and the atmosphere.

Sort by who has the program your kid needs, then visit them so you get the vibe of the campus.

NFI. She likes Latin. And Spanish. She has a 3.9something and letters of interest from colleges with swim teams no-one has ever heard of. Well I haven't. Not Ivy league anyway. Although she's actually more noted in Water Polo circles, but they don't recruit in the same way, especially up here because cali is the center of all things WP. Does that help?

Thanks guys. We'll certainly be road-tripping, but I just have no idea what's good and what's not. Is it really not that big a deal as long as you get a degree?

U of M would be fantastic were it not right on the doorstep. literally walkable. It's closer than all her schools.

Whats wrong with going to a local school?

Seriously, would it make sense to aim for the one(s) with the best swimming and water polo programs? That *might* take her to the Olympics or suchlike, and she'd still be getting a degree as back-up. Provided it is somewhere academically respectable, it still counts the same. And she'd be in the hunt for a scholarship, too.

Aside: the idea that a 16 year old "knows" what they want to do in terms of life approach (yuppie/bum/traveler/suburbanite), let alone field of study, is absurd. Some have firm beliefs, and a few of these do carry right through with it. Most chop and change and revise as they go. So, while this is a Big Decision, it's really at least half guess. Respect the things you're sure of, which in this case, seems to be swimming.

srsly?

because university is when you should fly the nest. When you're old enough to branch out and young enough for fuck-ups to be easily recoverable, and all your peers are in the same boat. That just doesn't happen if "home" is closer than the Laundromat and it'll only take a few minutes for mom to bail you out or dad to pick you up when you party too hard.

IKR -my BSC is computer Science and Math. NEVER will I use that in a professional capacity. WTF was I thinking? I'm way too claustrophobic to work I a cube

Its more or less the norm here for high school graduates to go to a uni in their home town and stay at home till they at least finish their bachelors degree.

Only the really focussed kids go out of town for specific degrees.

I can back up what Ali said - my niece in Brisbane never thought of going away to school. She lived at home and worked evening shifts to get through Uni.

It surprised me, but it is the norm over there.
She's left school pretty much without debt.

Moving away from the 'rents was considered one of the benefits of going to Uni amongst my friends, but in Leicester I met many people who'd either lived at home or with rellies while they went to Leicester University. I guess if you live in a city with a good University it does make sense.

Good luck to Hebes anyway.

In my experience, this is correct. Some schools may have more prestige, but its kinda like paying extra money for the name brand product when the store brand is the exact same thing without the fancy marketing.

The Princeton Review website has a best fit college search. I started my high school juniors there, and used it myself when it came time to choose a college.

Staying close makes sense financially but I'm with monster, kids have to get out and make their own mistakes. That said, Binghamton has evolved into an excellent engineering school drawing students from around the world so if Lil Griff was into it it'd be a good choice. For the record she's not interested in going to college as a townie. She wants to meet new people and have new experiences and start a punk band...

I went to the University in my home town,* and I can tell you that it is definitely still possible to fly the nest locally as long as that's what the kid wants. If you think she's going to try to rely on you, then yeah, she needs to get at least a couple hours out of town, but I was busy proving I was an adult and the last thing in the world I would have done was come home to do my laundry.

Being courted for any extracurricular is a big deal, even if you've never heard of those particular schools' swimming programs. Look very seriously at the quality of the schools that are trying to attract her, and see if they're good enough. From a genuine education standpoint, there's not much difference between all the upper-mid-range schools, which includes most state universities. Like I said, some schools are well-known for very specific programs, but if she's not sure what she wants to do, the main consideration should be a school that's A.) got good enough name recognition and B.) costs as little as possible.




*My safety school, to be honest, because while I got in almost everywhere, we were really thinking I was going to get more financial aid than I did. Northwestern threw me $500/year to offset a $30,000/year tuition. My parents laughed and I secretly cried. Anyway...

College is all about the networking connections you make that help you later in life. So go to a school with movers and shakers.

For example, when I was unemployed after college, a college buddy of mine said that he got a crappy temping job through a particular temp agency. So I signed up at that very same temp agency at his lukewarm urging. One of those crappy temping jobs I had turned into a crappy entry level job, which a few steps later turned in to this job. Can't say this job is crappy. Just low stress and boring and unrewarding and just barely lucrative enough to support a family.

So it's all about the high powered connections you make in college. I owe this job to that college buddy of mine. :neutral:

No offence glatt, but you dont have to go to college to network well.

I realise things besides spelling are different in the US, but i just dont see the need for all the added expense if its not necessary. I also totally disagree with the 'fly the coop' argument. I dont see Americans as a population being more well rounded (or whatever) because they went to uni away from home.

Yes its part of your culture to do so, but its not necessarily a good part.

:D You didn't read the middle bit, did you?

Actually, it's about the critical thinking you learn.

Glatt rightly said you do networking there, but wrongly inferred it is "all about" the networking.

Ali rightly noted that you can networking elsewhere well, but incorrectly implied that this is about making the kids "well-rounded". It's about kicking them out. ;)

Of course, we're all flirting with the single-factor fallacy.

See, it's about the thinking skills. Chica should study philosophy. ;)

:facepalm:

she returns.. im I had a poem called "Life on the Frontier of Dreams" that I wanted you to look at.. it a few clicks down on the creative express...

Well, you (your child) can't go to any school you can't afford. Clodfobble's story about getting a .5k token against a 30k expense is sad/funny. Ouch. Those folks who talk about the upper-mid range colleges/universities being roughly equal are right on target. It does make a difference at the level where the school is a "brand", but none of them were even a dream for me or for my children. If you're in a position to consider such schools seriously, that is super awesome.

For most folks though, cost is a/the major factor. Getting that degree (possibly the first in a series) with a minimum cost is HUGELY important. Young graduates with X tens of thousands of dollars in debt is like being born underwater. It's hard to catch your breath when you're at your weakest, professionally speaking. Reasonable people can disagree about the single factor/most important reason(s) for going to college, but all of them will agree that "to amass a large debt" is not one of them--avoid it, reduce it, finesse it the best you can, all the way through. Cost matters, **a lot**.

Beyond that, what does your student like? Not just academically, but athletically and socially and geographically, etc, etc. Those factors are just as real as the degree and the costs. I was one of the unusual students in that I picked my major, never changed it, graduated with a degree in that area (BS Computer Science) and then worked for decades in that field. Just lucky I guess :D .

What are your child's ideas about what school to choose?

Yeah, I got a $500 "scholarship" offer from Cornell. It wasn't quite enough to get me to brave their winters.

The Student Loan still has some attractive features.
The first is that most families (individual students) will qualify for some level of a "grant".
This is not a "loan", and does not have to be paid back.

I think there are 6 school-years of grant support, and my G-kids have qualified
for enough $ to cover their books, supplies, and class fees. (~$5,000/yr)

Tuitions are usually beyond the level of these grants, so it is
family decision time about "loan debt" and family "resources"

IM, where are you... you are needed ASAP !

Well, we are at the same point in the road here, and both our boys will probably go to Griffith uni which has a number of campuses, but they will most likely go to the one that's 20 mins drive from here so they can live here, focus on their study and avoid unnecessary financial challenges. Also, i think they like the food here.

JBK...read your poem and commented in thread (it's awesome)

phone posts funny sI'll try a better reply re: college choices when I can.

from YahooNews

I notice Marshall University is not on the list...I'm kinda shocked, they ain't called 'The Stumbling Herd' fer nuttin'. Their real team name is The Thundering Herd.:D

Gsheesh, what happened to Hawaii and Colorado (Boulder).

Those were the party schools in my day.

That's bullshit, every school is a party school if you want it to be.

Monster - As you know we've just been through this with the Zings. Feel free to call me if you want some free advice. It's more than I feel like typing out.

Yeah ... I had that sort of 'scholarship' from Canadian universities, including my med school. Too bad the scholarship was about 1% of the tuition.

My third son just updated me on current college 'party culture', which is to drink to unconsciousness every Friday AND Saturday. He did not attend an official party school. He bowed out of the drinking culture for his own reasons but has many friends who participated.

I have a hard time relating to that. I went to 'college' (university, in Canada - college was something different) in an atmosphere where there certainly were bars and student drinking establishments, but the goal was to become pleasantly buzzed without actually impairing your ability to think. Most of the grad students indulged in a couple of beers and then went back to the lab. That was it. So my perception of 'college drinking culture' was very different from my children's experience.

After what was possibly the worst final exam of our lives (Thermodynamics, taught by a prof with zero teaching skillz), my then-current bf, current husband, and I repaired to the Grad Students' Bar, The Downstairs John, and each ordered a double Black Russian. The server squinted at us doubtfully and said, 'Are you sure? You want - a double? You're sure?' and went away shaking her head. There was no 'drink until you die' ethos going on there.

It's been an education, learning about the American college drinking culture. So strange. It's the best argument I can think of for lowering the legal drinking age.

To get back to the point, it depends on whether your child wants athletics or academics more, monster. I think there are relatively few kids who know what they want academically on high school graduation (although I was one, and I know there are more) - but if you can find a school that will let your child swim/do WP AND pursue some respectable academics, carry on.

My personal view is that universities are for academics, period. But I know that's not a popular stance in the US.

Just avoid the 'party schools' unless you know your child will avoid the parties. That's a road you don't want to go down, at least in my experience.

I know that prof ! .... His initials were M.L., Jr. :D

He taught our course also, entitled "Physical Chemistry for Pre-Med and Pre-Dental Students".

At the mid-term, everyone in the class had a "D" or "F"
A group of us asked for an conference, where we complained (whined) about his lectures
which were almost purely the mathematical derivations of the equations of physical chemistry.
He tried to change his approach in the rest of the course, but it was still awful.
He ended up giving passing grades to everyone, but he and we all knew it was a farce and fiasco. :sniff:

In my opinion, as long as your daughter takes advantage of opportunities and remains top of her class, she will most likely be fine no matter the University or degree. However, I would just argue that some degrees and schools provide more opportunities than others.

If she is undecided of what to do academically, which is completely understandable at 16, going to a school that has a lot to offer is a good idea. It can be surprising what fields people eventually choose. I would push her to research different fields and get an idea of what she likes and is good at, which makes the decision process easier, but options are likely the best bet right now.

There is nothing wrong with going to a school specifically for sports but she must recognize that if swimming does not go as planned, her options are more limited. This is only a single instance, and I know of happier stories, but my best friend from high school went to a school specifically for football, didn't like it, and now regrets wasting two years at that school because of the lack of options.

Price tag is important. Sometimes more expensive school (private schools) are the way to go but make sure there is a clear vision if you do that. A lot of expensive private schools are very good in a few fields (worth it) but no better than cheaper schools in most other fields (not worth it). The same can be said for top state schools versus smaller state schools but to a lesser degree.

All in all, there is no single "best path" to take. Just be adaptive and open to opportunities. I know this is vague advice but I hope it helped. To give some background of where my perspective is coming from, I went to a Big 10 school (University of Minnesota) for undergrad with no idea of what I wanted to do when I got there.

Agreed. The best decision of my life was going to a school 5 1/2 hours away from home. Nothing wrong with saying close, I know a lot of people who did it, but I am very happy with my decision.

Very true. I am at the #3 party school in the country right now and it really isn't much different than Minnesota. It is all about who you hang with.

My advice on partying...be smart and don't let it control you. It is very possible to get very good grades and be ambitious while get trashed three or four times a week. However, to do that, you have your shit together and know limits. Many people are able to balance work and drinking (work hard play hard...) but other people fall down the rabbit hole. Just be careful and know priorities.

"It is very possible to get very good grades and be ambitious while get trashed three or four times a week."

~ that is to say ~

Some people are functional alcoholics in their youth.

Word. I was very skillful, got the grades, never missed a bender, and never really learned how to be. I learned late but at least I learned.

Can you be an alcoholic and then grow out of it? I'd get absolutely trashed 1-2 nights a week in college. Blackout trashed. Throwing up trashed.

I wasn't a stellar student. A bit too lazy. College was a lot of work and I only wanted to do enough work to get by. And I did.

Anyway, I haven't been trashed in 25 years or so. But I'll have a drink or maybe two pretty much every evening. Any more than that and I sleep poorly.

One of the tenets of AA is that you are always "a recovering alcoholic," no matter how many years you've been sober. But being an alcoholic means not being able to control your usage, whether it is one drink every single day, or getting trashed a couple times a week--the line is whether you can easily stop the pattern when needed. By this textbook definition there are a whole lot of functioning alcoholics in America, and a whole lot of people who are functioning addicts of other substances as well.

Some weeks I can drink a whole bottle of wine every night and then I don't drink anything the next week, then sometimes I might have one or two glasses each night for a couple of weeks then get completely trashed on spirits next weekend. Of course, I never drink when I'm pregnant, and never if I have to drive anywhere.

Sometimes I wonder if I have a problem, but then i think about the fact that I have no trouble not drinking when it's necessary or even if I just don't really feel like it. What makes me wonder is the days when the kids are driving me nuts and I'm just hanging out for when the little ones go to bed so I can crack open a bottle.

I think a big part of it is probably the ritual. Cracking one open is the signal that it's time to relax. I go days or even a week or so without drinking, and don't even think about it. It's not an issue. But then there are times that I'm looking forward to that glass of wine. Or someone mentions having a glass of wine and I hadn't been thinking about it but it sounds real good once they say it.

Anyway, back to colleges.

We stopped by Cornell when we were in Ithaca. Walked around a bit and tried to point things out to the kids to get them thinking about what it will be like to be in college. Cornell is all stone and slate roofs, so I referred to it a couple times as Hogwarts, and the kids perked up a bit at that. We went in the bookstore and in the art museum and snack bar. My dad was a post-doc there for a year or so, and my father-in-law is an alum, so we planted the seed that it was a place our family had a connection to, not just a random school. Hopefully it got them thinking. I also told them the price, and my boy didn't care, but my girl was amazed college was that expensive.

So.... I really was very, very clueless when I started this thread. I'm getting better.

I now know which schools are the Ivy League schools (that was a throw-away hignoramus comment before) ...I learned that Stanford is in California and is not one of them! I learned that a 3.9+ GPA is actually very good -good enough to consider Ivy League. Sorry for being such a wazzock before, I truly had no idea. And I learned that the ridiculous tuitions fees of the top universities are not actually what students end up paying because many get Financial Aid, not just the folk who qualify for free lunches. And that the big$$ universities often have big endowments so have more scholarships to offer.

So it turns out our first road trip will be to look at Harvard because they have a D1 Women's Water Polo Team and have been soliciting her academically after she took the ACT. Which is awesome but also very scary. But nothing to lose, right? Right? it is times like this when I kind of get homesick because I knew how it worked there and then.... but of course the whole water polo thing (and the swimming thing) wouldn't even be a consideration.....

interesting times.

Send your kid to Harvard? I guess you'll be a snob then and we'll be lucky to have you visit. Just kidding Monster, that's great news she's having these opportunities. Or should I say earning these opportunities. :thumb:

How it worked then here is not how it works now here. Good luck and remember, as my old uni department head said: "If all you've done while you're here is study hard and got a good degree, I shall be disappointed!".


Sent by thought transference

Pick a school based on two factors.

1. How do the school colors go with my complexion and usual wardrobe choices?

2. Travel time, difficulty, and cost.

Cost of the degree isn't as much of a factor. All college costs ridiculous money these days.

Outside of her current choice of major, what are her interests? Pick baseed on that. Everywhere has languages and she'll change her major at least twice before graduation.

She applied early to her back-up and just learned she's in (Michigan State)

Harvard early decision app goes in next week

then the rest in a few weeks. She has to decide her second choice this weekend (because the deadline for getting her SAT subject test results sent to them without extra charge is Monday). 3rd choice is U of Mich. I think she plans to apply to one more

After talking to her counsellor, she figured she needs to apply to Liberal Arts colleges with Water polo teams and good school spirit :)

We're being called fairly regularly by a D3 water polo coach which is incredibly flattering, but unfortunately the school is not particularly well rated academically

This is expensive. She knows my credit card number by heart. $15 to send ACT results here $3 to send transcript there.... then the application fees are $50-$75 each. nuts.

She took her SAT subject tests last weekend (then we drove like a bat out of hell to get her to an important swim meet where she arrived just in the nick of time for her event (and got another state cut) This is loony tunes.


Limey, how is it different now? They don't apply to 5 through the clearing house and accept 2 any more? Are there fees now?


the thing I find horribly different is I chose based on my major and then how the grades they typically wanted matched my projected grades. It was a double major and only a few universities offered it, so that narrowed it down easily. here/now you don't have to know your major. It helps if you know you want to be an engineer or a doctor, but if you have no idea, that's fine.....

You're right, it is nuts but be aware, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

One Cellar member, I think it was Seakdiver, said her husband wrote the book for the courses he teaches and of the one hundred and fifty odd dollars the students pay for it he gets like three bucks. But I've read most of the text books can be found as a PDF online.

Of course books are just one small expense but it all helps. I wish I'd sold my books to somebody when I graduated. They take up space in the attic, after being moved several times, and never been opened since 1964. :rolleyes:

Oh, and congratulations on Michigan State to her mermaid-ness.

I got a couple text books out last week, but I had kept those intentionally and sold back most of the rest.

Congrats on #3 hoping for #1!

My girls are quite happy at the moment. Small liberal arts for #2 professional school for #1. Both are currently comfortable in the environments they chose. Neither wanted the big school culture.

I kept my textbooks because I'm a hoarder. I bet I couldn't even give them away to an arsonist now.

Her mermaidness is liking the big school feel I think. That's why she's having trouble with her 2nd choice(s) -because most schools that fit the liberal arts/polo/rahrahrah criteria are pretty small

Any on the left coast?

@ Monster - You still apply via UCAS to I think 6 institutions at a time and they then pass the apps to the individual universities. And the clearing system still works the same way I think, if you don't have get the required grades for your original offers and so on.

The biggest changes since you left are the increase in fees and the changes to the grants and loan system. Things have got a lot more monetized and students are much more 'customers' than before. Also, the polytechnics and so forth have all been turned into universities so there isn't the corresponding PCAS application alongside UCAS (that might have been before you left?).

The drive to get 50% of school leavers to university (stupid fucking idea) has led to an increase in non-academic 'degrees' - or rather the academicising of previously non-acedemic subjects like hotel catering - and the devaluing of degrees - so jobs that used to require A-levels now require degrees, and many employers who used to employ people with a BA now look for a post grad - similarly, whereas a 2:1 or a 2:2 would get you into graduate employments nowadays you really need a 1st for a lot of those starter graduate jobs.

yeah pcas died long before left. I think it died before I went to uni -they had certainly changed all the polys to "metropolitan ubiversities" and similar tosh, so it's not really all that different, just "dumbed down" same as here where you need a McDegree to get a job flipping burgers these days ;)

Now businesses don't want to pay people while they train them, and won't hire untrained people. Catch-22.

Well there's no money to be made with high school level trade schools, but if we expand colleges, especially community, technical and online colleges, to give McDegrees, we can;
1- Make them pay for their training.
2- Make money training them.
3- Hire the now trained graduates.
4- Make them pay us back the money we loaned them for school... plus interest.

But at least all those professors we hire to train them are doing well.
Um... no. Mostly associate professors, non-tenure track, and unless it's a big name school, making less per hour than the kid who cooked your burger at lunch.
What a country. :facepalm:

she just learned she got deferred from Harvard. (this means they didn't say yes but they didn't say no either and will reconsider her with the regular pool) :/

Bummer.