Down to the bare metal
 

I'm soooooooo tired of the performance of my laptop. It takes about ten minutes from power on to cruising altitude.

*Yaaawn...*

Just thinking about it makes me really yawn.

So, I intend to take it down to the bare metal. I'm going to re-fdisk the hard disk, reinstall xp, all the service packs, office, and about 30 different applications I wrote down. I hope I don't reinstall the crap that has accumulated from the many months since the last time I went through this.

I will be incommunicado in the meantime, so I have a strong motivation to get myself back online. I don't reckon you'll all miss me much but I'll miss you. Who knows, maybe I'll be back online today. Unlikely, but possible. Hmm. Maybe I'll reinstall Firefox first. But then I may never finish the rest of the system. Oh well.

See y'all soon!

Yes, I do this on all my winboxes every so often. Reformat/reinstall. In the NT days it was every 9 months, with XP its more like every 2 years.

Break a leg, dude.

you did a defrag first?

I'm only back online long enough to confirm that the first 20 dingdang restarts and failed reinstalls aren't because I hosed something. Just getting the stupid thing to boot from cd is a challenge.

Oh, and my Dell supplied silkscreened labeled cd that says "Reinstallation CD for Microsoft Windows XP Professional Including Service Pack 2" is really XP Home. No sh*t. I did it twice. And that was also one of the things I wanted to double check on this restart. Yep. True. So, it appears I don't have a XPSP2 disc, and can't install usiing the gui. Whatever. I'll beat this *%@!^)^ into submission. I may find myself down to the local Fry's for a new 100GB 2.5" hd and I'll really be starting fresh.

Defrag? Waaay past the time when a defrag can be efficacious. I think I'm going to be depending more on outboard storage and less on *only* using the internal hd.

Or, maybe I'll just get so fed up with this process and get a new laptop. That's an (remote) option.

Ok, back to the grindstone.

Good luck with all that.

I suspect that laptop has been nuked before this warning will be read. Responsible manufacturers provide comprehensive diagnostics with their machines. Diagnostics (BTW) that should be loaded on the hard drive BEFORE formatting and installing the XP partition.

Unfortunately, the shotgun method is being used. Everything performed only to fix the problem. Very wrong procedure. First collect facts. First establish WHY the problems exist. Do not change anything until first the facts have been collected.

So many sources. For example, what did those comprehensive diagnostics report? What does the system (event) log report - valuable information destroyed by the 'nuke and pave' option. What is ongoing in Task Manager?

A system that takes minutes to boot will either be contaminated by promiscuous users (ie worms) or have hardware problems. What makes the problem even harder to solve? The human who tries to fix a hardware problem by reloading Windows

Shotgunning is why some problems are not solved. Its a well proven concept that applies to everything - not just computers. Break the problem down into parts. Then solve those parts one step at a time. In this case, we can draw a big line right down between hardware and software. One does not fix software when hardware integrity is unknown. At least does not IF one wants to fix it the first time.

Dell provided comprehensive diagnostics AND a program to load those comprehensive diagnostics on a new drive. The event logs could have long ago been warning of the failing hard drive - providing one with plenty of opportunity to transfer to a new drive without data failure and without wild speculation. Just another example of why problems are solved first by breaking down a problem into parts.

Well, we'll just have to have a gentlemen's disagreement here. Typically, the Windows Registry gets so screwed up it's hard to repair and optimize. Then you have all the malicious stuff on top of that. I don't bother finding problems. I create a pristine environment from first principles.

I always build my own desktop computers so I don't even have any Dell tools anyway.

Sometimes I can avoid the clean rebuild by using System Restore, which actually works on XP.

Recently found the defective part, and replaced that IC in a Gateway power supply. Why? Clearly not to save money. Clearly not faster. But I learned. I learned why power supplies fail - and even that Gateway power supplies are missing essential functions. A problem also found in so many clone computers. Those who are considering a new machine - Gateway power supply was found missing essential functions.

Been using Windows NT on systems even before Windows 98 was marketed. Never once saw problems traceable to registry - except viruses. And yes, I have even cleaned a virus by deleting and modifying files - to learn the hows and whys. A rare case where the registry was part of a problem because the registry kept reloading the virus. More often, the registry is too often blamed for problems elsewhere.

If a system contains no value, then a 'nuke and pave' may work. But defined is a problem more often directly traceable to hardware - which means the 'nuke and pave' would only make things more difficult.

Meanwhile, what does a clone computer builder not get? Comprehensive diagnostics. A first thing executed when hardware integrity is suspect. Therefore clone builders rarely recommend diagnostics since such was never available. It explains why shotgunning is so often recommended - a technique that even auto mechanics no longer call acceptable.

Always start by not trying to fix the problem. Fixing comes later. First collect facts. NT based OSes (unlike the unreliable Win9x systems) make that easy. If problem was a failing hard drive, then that too would be obvious in system (event) logs. (his symptoms are consistent with a failing hard drive but facts are not yet provided.) Then step two - the repair - is done right the first time.

No, the Win Registry is a well known single point of failure in desktop winboxes.

Registry defragmentation performs physical defragmentation of the Windows registry file. After defragmentation your registry will acquire linear structure which will reduce application response time and registry access time. Do not worry if sometimes after defragmentation the registry will become smaller only by 1-5%, the key is not in size but in its linear structure, hence it determines access time.

http://www.majorgeeks.com/Registry_D...ion_d4004.html

I built around 20 PCs and had about three hardware problems in five years. I have had a lot of success renewing systems. I have to debug my complex code at work, I don't need to be screwing around with OS problems.

TW I'm with you all the way about MBAs, But I don't agree with this statement. Do you by chance work for Dell? "Meanwhile, what does a clone computer builder not get? Comprehensive diagnostics." Are there not 3rd party programs to do this? To get this Comprehensive diagnostics. I have to talk to someone from who knows where.
A hypo problem. I use Yankeeclipper for copying & paste. What's wrong is some times it doesn't copy? If it screws the pouch I just exit and restart, but sometimes that does work, I reboot. I know that I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, But I've been playing around a little while and have built a few. bb

In general, tw, I agree. When debugging, I always look for the root cause of the bug and not the symptoms. But in this case, I gotta go with Rock Steady and buster. Sometimes it's just too much trouble to pick the fly shit out of the pepper.

In other words, Dell or Gateway will sell you a crappy machine, with a few bundled debugging tools to help you figure out what is so crappy about it. Did the tool help find the bad power supply tw?

5 minutes to collect information is too long? Rock Steady will spend hours rebuilding a system without any reasons for that work to be successful. Without even knowing why he has a failure. He is assuming a software problem when the problem is probably a hardware one.

For example, let's say the failure is a bad disk. He has spent how long reloading that bad disk only to have it still fail. Meanwhile, in five minutes, the system (event) log from the original system could have reported the problem. Information he destroyed because he did what so many do - shotgun.

The Dell diagnostic (available to everyone without wasteful human intervention on a phone, also located on Dell disks, and also provided with my system on a CD) may have also reported the problem. Both information sources in five minutes would save Rock Steady hours of wasted effort.

Responsible manufacturers provide comprehensive diagnostics. Such diagnostics are not provided by Gateway and not provided by clone computer manufacturers. Yes one can download numerous, individual diagnostics from component manufacturers. That takes longer.

Meanwhile, the 'nuke and pave' option takes longer, destroyed user data on the drive only on speculation, destroyed any hope of learning from XPs diagnostic information, and then still may not solve the problem.

The highest failure rate computers were, far and away, clones. I basically undermined an alternative source of income by getting these victims to replace those disasters with brand name systems. In at least one case, the adult was so stubborn that the kids finally had to demand change. The adult considered those failures as normal.

Meanwhile, you tell me. The computer does not power. So why would I execute diagnostics? Obviously, one might waste time shotgunning the power switch, power supply controller, and power supply. Or again first collects facts. In but under two minutes, the power supply was identified as reason for that problem by first using a standard diagnostic tool. It took longer to remove the problem.

And what was that standard diagnostic tool?

"Brand name systems" what a joke.

We run one of the largest ad networks on generic dual AMD Opterons running Open Solaris. Peak, our decision server hits 6,000 requests per second. The application uses 12MB of main memory.

I repeat, I have not had many hardware problems. I always buy good parts, Asus MBs, Antec Cases, etc, much better stuff than the so called name brands, which use crap parts and short cuts.

Hardware is reliable. Software gets fucked up.

We we're talking about that at all. We were talking about Win/XP becoming so ripe that it can't get out of it's own way.

"The adult". That sounds like a household in trouble with PCs. I've been programming since 1971, I think I know what I am doing by now.

I've got the Dell diagnostic Discs but haven't a clue what to do with them.
I'm neither a software nor hardware geek, just a PC user. :confused:

Diagnosing OS-related problems on Windows is extremely difficult because it is closed-source. There's simply not enough information about the components to dig down deep into the problem with. I think this is one of those situations where one thing is good in principle, but in reality, another thing is way easier. Still, there are a whole host of things you could have done first to try to prevent spending so much time reinstalling. Such as:

Disabling all the apps that load up at boot time (msconfig and/or hijackthis)

Ensuring that DMA is enabled on the hard drive.

Ensuring that you have enough RAM.

Running the hard disk diagnostic tool (obtained from the hard disk manufacturer's website).

Checking the RAM integrity (memtest86+)

Of course, keeping this from happening again is a whole other list.

How do you do this in XP?

A short list though. Simply,

1. Don't use Microsoft Windows

(I can't help myself, sorry.)

I think you go into the device manager, into the properties of either the hard drive or the ide device. A quick google could provide more details, but that's usually where I go.

Yeah, I've done it a couple of times, and IIRC XP does say they are DMA enabled, but some program I have keeps complaining that they aren't. I suspect it's the program's fault.

Personaly , when i blank , reformat , and repartition a HD , I load windows , get that setup and stable , then load the newest version of Norton i can get my hands on , get that setup and stable , then start with all the updates , service packs , virious deffanitions , etc,,, then scan , scan , scan , test test test , benchmarks and all
THEN I load other software , and see how it is doing and Then tweek it to the way I like it ,

In my experence service disks from some PC "manufactures " load CRAP !!! Some if not ALL DELLs will create a small partition on your HD for diognostic and admin stuff ,
in the older days this could be a problem , if a prog was looking to read from drive D: and drive D: was said partition , or Scusii cards had problems finding drive letters for various things , or network cards and soft ware freaking because there was 2 drive D:'s , weird stuff that would make you PULL your hair out !!!!!!!

Yep, that's basically my routine too. Except, just before the "THEN", I do an explicit System-Restore SAVE and name it Stable-1 or something. Maybe do another S-R SAVE every 5-6 app installs.

Nothing like a clean system.

You can also use Norton Ghost to create an image of your clean system after you've done all that. That way, when it inevitably crashes and burns again, you can just restore it from the image.

I'm baaaa-aaack.

Well, I took today off from work, that's probably why I haven't posted recently. Wait. That sounds kind of embarassing and incriminating.....anyway.

Rather than quote you and argue with you tw, since I disagree with you on several points in this thread, I'll just hold forth on my own.

1 -- I know what I'm doing; I'm making my machine run right. "Shotgun approach"? Naw, more like dynamite, bulldozer, and professional re-construction.

2 -- When you have a malfunctioning capacitor, do you unsolder the can, unroll the inside, and locate the break or short before you run the forensic diagnostics to determine if the source of the problem was an overvoltage condition, a thermal failure, or the result of shoddy workmanship sue to the shortsighted workforce polices of the dunder-headed MBAs who foolishly decided they needed to support the stock price as the quarterly reports were coming due so that their bonuses tied to the company's P/L position would be (selfishly) enhanced, or after?

3 -- This machine, my main work and pleasure machine (computer, you doofus), is well protected against malicious assaults from the internet, but is subject to some hard duty. Like Pasteur, I often experiment on my own system before I install a program for others. Sometimes I uninstall the program, sometimes not. I accumulate A LOT of cockadoodie and I was simply tired of it. Unlike successive coats of paint, these additions to my system don't always affect only themselves. Think applying the second (or third or thirtieth) before the previous coats were dry. The applications get mixed up sometimes. And that's for the well-behaved applications. Sometimes the stuff I install is crap, and doesn't install nicely, and uninstalls even less nicely. I was tired of hauling around all that baggage. Buh-bye.

4 -- You were totally right on the part about being off the air by the time I read the post. Good call.

edit: I corrected my science history. Pasteur, not Lister, famously experimented on himself.

Glad to have you back, V. How's the computer running now that it's squeeky clean?

Well, I *did* load Firefox first, (third, after MS Office, Symantec AntiVirus Corp Ed v10). I loaded XPSP2 from cd, and after a couple of warmup trips through Windows Update, I am making a Microsoft Update haul of 43 updates at >100 MB. *sigh*

I think I overlooked the step where I exported all my bookmarks from Firefox, but so far, so good. The system is way, waaaay faster just getting on it's feet. It was really a case of picking the pepper out of the fly sh*t in my case. That was fairly funny and dead accurate.

I haven't installed many old apps yet, including the wirelessness for the home network. It feels weird tethered to a network cable on the couch. Old skool. But many of the preliminary updates have required a restart, which is normal, and the system comes right up right now. It feels like a whole new system. I hope to keep that lovin' feelin' as the apps get installed.

But as of now, I'm a very happy camper.

That's nice. But what failed?

Nobody cares.

It appears not to matter. What is relevant is that the system is healthy. If he installs something that makes things bad, then he has found a problem, and should do a System Restore to get the system healthy again.

For the machine I am typing on now, I did the reformat/reinstall on July 24 and things have been great ever since. I am a remote employee and depend on this machine for my work. I handcrafted it about two years ago with parts from NewEgg.com

Nothing failed, tw.

Do you wear socks? When you take them off at the end of the day, they haven't failed, I mean, you could wear them again tomorrow, right? But you might decide that they're just too stinky and toss them in the wash. Voila'! Good as new. Not really new, but cleaned out from the bad stuff that accumulated as they we put to their designed use.

Now if you wear a hole in the heel, you might darn them and wash them (or wash then darn, I guess) Then you might say they had failed. But that's not the situation here. It was running like crap and I gave it a very thorough tune up. grant and RS are right too. It doesn't matter, because I don't care. Perhaps it is/was knowable what was causing it, but to me, it was the cumulative weight of loading app after app after app. So, I guess that failure was what I corrected. Too many crapplications.

I'm reminded of an old Calvin and Hobbes cartoon I love. Calvin asks his dad how do they determine what weight to put on the signs at the ends of the bridge that say "No trucks over ## tons" . Dad replied that they drive trucks over the bridge, each one heavier than the last, and when the bridge finally fails, the weigh the last truck to successfully cross the bridge, make a sign with that weight on it, rebuild the bridge exactly as it was before, then post the sign. Mom complains from off screen, but so what. It's not the only way to know, but it's one way. When this thing breaks again, I'll back up one notch and avoid that mistake in the future.

Amazing when one has no idea, then they must post insults to mask ignorance. BigV - you had a failure which is why the system required repair. You had a failure and still have no idea why the problem happened.

The question was "What failed".

BigV's answer is, "I have not a clue so I will discuss socks. Then may be no one will notice."

Holy Christ, using a sock metaphor is now an insult? You're way too sensitive, dude.

Yeah, he sure looks like he's worried about people noticing his ignorance, tw. :rolleyes:

I understand what you mean, tw. But it is far more practical, at least with Windows computers, to take the quick route that will get you pretty much what you want, rather than the "correct" route of finding the exact problem and fixing it (this is true mostly for when you can actually sit down at the computer with virtually unlimited tools at your disposal, however when doing tech support over the phone it may be somewhat true).

#1 rule if a computer (Windows-based or even Linux-based) has been compromised (most Windows machines experiencing slugishness have been, one way or another), is to completely format it, wipe it clean, and start over (or restore from a known good backup). You don't know WHAT has been changed, replaced, removed, mangled, or corrupted, as such whenever you "clean" a computer, you never really know it's clean/working properly (you just gauge the cleaniness/proper working order by using it and make an assumption). Unless you want to go line by line through each plain-text or encoded-text files (not to mention you can't really do this effectively with binary files, even with all the text files you can't)? Now, I understand most machines probably won't have problems this deep (most compromised windows machines have been automatically compromised by a virus or trojan and are being used as zombies in a network).

:cool:

Here's to Asus motherboards! :beer: :beer:I own two, one's in my server and one's in my main PC. Nothing like the Opterons you're running, the main PC has a Mobile 2400+ (was the best bang-for-the-buck at the time, overclocked to 11.5 x 200 mhz fsb, 2.3 ghz total), the server is a XP 2400+ (Thorton core, 13 x 133 mhz fsb, 2 ghz total).