Ramadan
 

I changed my mind about hijacking this thread. It deserves it's own thread.

I have been following the conversation in the Fatter than God thread, and I don't have much more to add than my initial two cents worth (should that be possesive?). Anyway. During the month of Ramadan, I have been fasting, along with a friend who is a Muslim. And when the subject came up at home, DaughterofV showed interest and volunteered to fast as well. We are not Muslim, and the religious dogma that accompanies the fasting is not our principle reason for fasting. I'll describe my motivations and observations, which are largely shared by DaughterofV.

I am not strictly following the schedule. I have a copy of it, and I have instead chosen to fast during the daylight hours, and I simplify that definition by choosing 7:00 am as sunrise and 7:00 pm as sunset. The actual figures are pretty close to that, and although I gain about 3-4 minutes of eating time every day according to the almanac, I have chosen to just stick to the 7 to 7 routine.

I have succeeded completely in my fast to this point, I am pleased to say. Just as my timeframe is simple and therefore easy to follow, the rules of the fast are also simple. No food, no drink, no sex, no swearing from sunrise to sunset. This has been a very informative experience for me.

I have noticed many interesting things. First off, when 7pm rolls around, I'm ready to eat. But curiously, I'm not really "hungry". I have found that I am rarely hungry, outside of Ramadan. When I eat, almost always, it is because of habit, not because of hunger. This surprise is the one that occurred to me while reading the other thread. I have developed habits of eating that are largely disconnected from my body's needs (hunger). I have developed habits that ignore or distort my interpretation of my body's signals of hunger and satiation. I have long misread a specific time of day as "hunger" and I have long thought wrongly about "I have room for more" or "I don't want to throw that out" or "I took it, I'll eat it" and disregarded my feelings of saiety. This point, above all others, has been the most instructive insight into my own habits. The very habits that lead to the situation I'm in. And I want to be in a different situation--thinner, lower blood pressure--I must have different habits. That cannot happen without an understanding of my existing habits. This fast has thrown my current habits into sharp relief.

The next thing I observed, closely related to the first point, is the power of my mind in this situation. I am currently choosing to fast. I feel the tug of the old habits, and when they conflict with my current choices, like a cup of coffee in the morning, or having lunch, I have had the pleasant experience of being able to resist that tug. Intentionally resisting, intentionally choosing, consciously, wakefully choosing. You all may not find this as astonishing as I have. You may live very intentionally. You may have alert and aware eating habits. I have found that I have not been so alert and aware. I want to remember this newly recovered power of will. I want to remember it after Ramadan when I remove the artificial restraint on my eating schedule. I want to remember that I can successfully choose to pass up a tasty treat, that I can get by without seconds, or that the tail end of my meal can go in the trash or the fridge. I want to remember that I will not be deprived or scarred. I want to remember the longer term health benefits I reap, instead of the short term gain (pun noticed, not inappropriate). I hope I can remember, and act accordingly.

I have also found that I'm eating less. No big surprise there, but there is a big surprise for me in seeing how little food it takes for me to be really full now for my evening meal. I'm a big guy, and I have always been a big eater. What I am now having as a full meal would previously been just half a meal or so, depending. My portion sizes, no, what satisfies me, what gives me that pleasant full feeling is sooo much less food now. I found that surprising. Last night, for example, I had a mug of bean soup, a grilled cheese sandwich, a small glass of juice, a large glass of water, a dessert cup of lemon pudding, and two two-inch rice krispy balls. I was packed. I couldn't finish the pudding. I didn't scrape the bottom of the mug for the last quarter teaspoon of soup. Another lesson learned.

I have compared my zero snacking now to my previous grazing behavior. Practically none of the snacks I ate before, a little candy at the reception desk, a granola bar, bagel in the lunchroom, birthday cake every couple of weeks at the office, sometimes I'd eat my lunch for breakfast at my desk. ALL those bites contributed to my calorie intake, but mostly didn't satisfy or soothe me in any lasting way. Maybe it scratched some itch but it wasn't hunger.

I've read that a habit is a cable we weave one thread a day time. Actually, I tried checking my memory on this and found three nice quotes.

Habit is a cable; we weave a thread of it each day, and at last we cannot break it.
Mann, Horace -- 1796-1859 American Educator

The beginning of a habit is like an invisible thread, but every time we repeat the act we strengthen the strand, add to it another filament, until it becomes a great cable and binds us irrevocably thought and act.
Marden, Orison Swett -- 1850-1924 American Author Founder of Success Magazine

Habits are cobwebs at first; cables at last.
Proverb, Chinese -- Sayings of Chinese Origin

I like this last one. True, isn't it? I intend to set aside my old habits and adopt new ones. Ones I mean to adopt and keep, not just ones I've blundered into. I've got a week's worth of threads for this new cable.

You could conclude that I've only been thinking about my diet this week. That would not be true, however. I have used this artificial minor deprivation to reflect as well. I've been thinking about those people around the world and in my community for whom a single meal a day is not a choice, but a fact. And for those for whom is it not a fact, but a hope. I look at the pictures of people fighting over blankets in Pakistan, and contrast those images with ones of people in New Orleans wondering where, oh where, is their trailer from FEMA. I understand we have a very different standard of living here compared to Pakistan. And I'm not bagging on the people who've been wiped out by the hurricane. But I am aware of my relative wealth. Sure, there's a lot of ground above me on the ladder of materialism, ground I strive every day to cover. But there are far, far more people who don't have what I have. And I do myself a disservice when I don't count my own blessings. And when I don't share my blessings. It doesn't take much, and what I give away doesn't harm me or my family and is appreciated by those who receive it. I am happy to be able to be in a position to give. That is the blessing.

I have lost weight. I expect and hope there will be a similar favorable effect on my blood pressure as well. I'll give some specific numbers when I weigh myself tomorrow. To get the bp numbers I'll have to find my sphygmomanometer. (Yes, I had to look up the spelling.)

I have learned that I am not a captive prisoner of my habits, my genes, my environment, my parents, my fate. I can choose my path to a large degree. That is an enormously liberating epiphany. And I get to share the experience with dear DaughterofV. She's learning right alongside me. She's got the power to do the same for her life as I have with mine. And, delightfully, she's learning it 30 years earlier that I am. To be fair, I've known these things for a long time, but I have lost track of them. My belief faded and atrophied from disuse. I feel renewed.

You don't need religion to do all of that. That is the appeal of religion, as long as you do it for your (G/g)od(s) it's not really your choice and if you don't do it you're going to whatever appropriate bad place is. As long as it's a secular choice, the real reason for doing it generally isn't strong enough motivation.

That and it teaches capituation to someone else's will. Namely that of whoever wrote whatever religious text.

All that being said, if your post was just about the dietary aspects I apologize for the diatribe. Just don't lose sight of your real goals, good health and bonding with DaughterofV.

How old is your daughter, BigV? That's got to be pretty hard on her to sit at lunch at school and not eat. When I was in elementary school, they wouldn't let you do that; anyone without a lunch was given a free peanut butter and jelly sandwich (and the lunch monitor made sure you ate it.)


Edit to say it sorta sounded like I was accusing you of forcing her into this, which I didn't intend. I am impressed with her, is all.

This is a thoughtful, serious thread. Therefore, I feel compelled to introduce my usual disrespectful note of frivolity by saying that, once you have completed the spiritual fasting, you should celebrate by feasting on those little dry Oriental noodles. That's what they're for, right? I mean, they're called Top Ramadan, right?

following elspode's lead (by being a teesy bit disrespectful)--If I'm going to fast, I'll want some dexedrine first. Then, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo problem. :D

So you sleep days now and work nights?

Ok, ok, I couldnt resist. Yes, I get your message. This is much too long for my attention span but yes, I can appreciate your fasting and that we are confined by our habits. Most of which are not all that neccessary or heathy.

An update.

I have kept my fast intact. Two times I finished my bowl of cereal and one of the clocks in the kitchen said it was a couple of minutes after 7:00, but that's not really my point. I have been able to keep my food and drink intake restricted to 7:00 pm to 7:00 am. I have kept the fast in all other ways as well, except swearing. Maybe for Lent I'll forgo bad language. :lol: That would be a sacrifice.

Back to the diet aspect...I have not been hungry, really. I have found a few times that I would normally have a lunch or early dinner that I would like to have been able to eat. Not really hungry, but the rest of the cues were all present and I felt the (pavlovian) urge to do my part, to eat. I am really enjoying the new power I have over my habits.

And even more, I am enjoying the weight loss. Serious weight loss, well, serious for me. I will give some specific figures. I went to the doctor on 27 September 2005 for my regular annual physical exam, including my weight. In street clothes, no shoes, on their beam scale I weighed 256 pounds. Actually down two pounds from the previous year, a welcome surprise! I have another appointment at the same doctor's office this Thursday for a follow up on the Hepatitis A/B immunizations I got at the first visit. I will get weighed again. Ask me Thursday (or Friday) what the weight is. We have a plain old bathroom scale at home and I have been in the habit of weighing myself in the morning as part of my morning ablutions, and although I realize the two scales are different and I don't (yet) have a way to reconcile them with confidence, I plan to weigh myself Thursday morning at home too. So when I get weighed at the doctor's office, I can compare the two numbers. Cause I can feel the difference in my clothes, I know I've been eating less and my home scale this morning reported 238 pounds. :eek: I don't think I can attribute the whole 20 pound difference to clothes and calibration delta. *Some* of that has to be fat. At least I hope so.

And speaking of eating less, the portions with which I find myself satisfied are very small. Like kiddie meal small. The other night I had a cup of soup, and two slices of garlic bread, some juice and some water. And I was pleasantly full. If I ate as much as I used to, I think I would pop! And my snacking has dropped to zero. My junk food consumption has dropped to zero. My eating out of the house has dropped to zero. No McDonalds. That has been a big change, I used to go a couple three times a week. These all contribute to the weight loss.

When the time of fasting is over, I know my habits will change. I am thinking now of how they'll change. I expect I will start drinking coffee again. And water during the day will be nice. (Although the only time I have been really thirsty was a couple of weekends back when I did some serious yardwork pruning raking hauling sweeping digging etc. At 7:00 I was really thirsty. I downed a couple of liters of water then started dinner.) I think I'll eat lunch again. But what I have for lunch is critical. I'm thinking carrots and celery, which I liked before and I still do like. But I think change in diet that will have the most impact that I expect I can maintain indefinitely will be in portion control and pace of eating. Smaller portions, and eating more slowly. I can remember I sometimes "felt so hungry" that I bolted my food. Munch ahh chomp ahh gulp gulp aaaahhhh. Bad idea. Smaller and slower. I have proved to myself over a reasonable time that I can live, thrive with those habits. I am going to bar the door to the old ones.

When it comes to cooking, I have felt a little crippled. I am not a strict recipie follower (which says a lot as to why I am only an amateur baker--cooking may be an art, but baking is a science). But I am an artistic and competent cook. But cooking while strictly fasting has been like painting while blindfolded. I think I remember where I put that red and that green paint, let's just swipe some over here, and let's put some of this over there...all on faith.

I tried a couple of new recipies this weekend and both failed to live up to my expectations from the tv show. I made kettle corn. It was...digestible, but not really tasty, nor was it attractive. A loss, maybe the dog will want some. I made some cheese puffs (lost the dingdang name bonboules or something like that....grr ) and although they didn't "puff" up, they were delicious. They were like cookies in size, appearance and texture, but tasted like smoked gouda. Once again, not being able to taste as I go along was a handicap. On the other hand, I made some delicious clam chowder without tasting and it was delicious. I put up five pints of the soup. And the pesto turned out ok too. But it is more difficult and less enjoyable to cook without tasting.

My work colleague brings me in mouth tingling leftovers during Ramadan - they are spicier than the usual food she cooks so I think she errs on the side of plenty when she cooks without tasting.

It makes me feel like a bit of a heel because she likes to see me enjoy them, which means I reheat & eat them in front of her....

She's having quite a hard time of it this year, tired, lethargic & looking forward to Eid more than usual. I think it may be the weather - what's Houston like this time of year? (she lived there until last year). She finds it grey & damp here, despite me rhapsodising about the beauty of subtlety in a British Autumn.

If we're still working together next year I am definitely going to try it - it seems to have worked well for you & it would be an interesting challenge.

Technique
 

My wife's parents fast, and there are some practical techniques that help.

They get up and eat a heavy breakfast, something like three eggs with onions cooked in lots of butter. Next comes six glasses of water and brushing your teeth. Then they go back to sleep until 10.

They also do it at the official time which means you have to be done before twilight.

It's the not drinking part that's the hardest.

Traditionally, the first thing that you eat after sunset is dates and water.

An update.

I weighed myself this morning at home. 242 pounds. At the doctor's office I weighed myself on the same scale as last time, with the same clothes, or close to it. 252 pounds. So in one month I have lost approx 4 pounds. That's realistic. To normalize my scale at home I then weighed myself again on the doctor's scale without my belt, leatherman, wallet, keys, knife, phone, etc. All the things that added to the 252, but were absent from the first weighing at home this morning. I did have my clothes on both times, though. New doctor office weight: 248. So, there's about 6 pounds difference between the two scales, and then when I stepped off at the office scale, I noticed it didn't return to zero with the scale at zero. There's about a 1 pound difference between zero and floating in the middle of the range on indicator on the beam.

Net result? I will continue to go by my home scale figures, since I'm there much more often and can track my progress more easily. I will also account for the difference my moving my target weight downward by 5 pounds to account for the discrepancy between my cheapo home scale and the doctor's office.

Question, not to derail my own thread, but ... The weight you "are" is calculated under what conditions? naked? clothed? shod? For BMI calculations, what do you all use? Is there a doctor in the house? (Hmm.. never used that line in a serious way before. Cool.) Just curious.

Humid as always, and around 65 degrees Fahrenheit.

Consistency of conditions is really what's key in the whole scale thing ... weigh the same time of the day, same clothing (naked is best, so you're weighing yourself, not your wardrobe), and importantly, don't move the scale. If you do get on and off it a couple times and make sure that it's re-zeroed before you record a result.

Make sure your feet are flat on the scale, no bouncing about or balancing or touching the wall to change the results.

My own personal preference is to weigh after the morning dump.

Every ounce counts, you know?

It's time for Ramadan again. I'm going to make the same dietary (and other) observations this year as I have in years past. I'll post some starting numbers when I have them (like tomorrow).

I'm a day late on the start this year. Today is "ruined" by coffee, lunch, coffee, etc. But tomorrow's a new day.

How long before Britain is an Islamic Republic?

and the burger and fries you ate last night while ignoring people. Does internet sex count? BAM! ok, off the bitch mode now and on to better things.

FFS
It's a REQUEST. At a meeting which starts at 18.30, it is REQUESTED that the Councillors refrain from eating all the sandwiches until after sundown, so that they can all eat together (and some food is left).

Even the Hate Mail clarifies it later in the same article.

Still, if a request for common courtesty makes a country an Islamic Republic, then I guess it Britain already is.

Sorry for jumping in without reading the thread, but isn't Ramadan the one that killed Mothra in the Tokyo Bay?

Happy Ramadan, everyone. I'd send you presents, but I figured I'd deprive you of them instead in the spirit of the season.

The gift that keeps on not giving.

I feel so left out...

BigV- 256 lbs? you're like, what, 6'-5"?

I'll get the home scale number for you next time--I forgot to step on the scale this morning (the home scale is my reference scale...it's the same one as in the opening posts). The doctor's office scale reads... hm. Can't remember that one either from the physical this summer. I'll get that value too.

But your numbers are pretty close.

6'4", 240 lbs.

On a different note, yesterday's fast went fine. Nil orally until well after 9pm. Today I slept in and took my morning coffee and a banana at about 7:30. I'm hungry now. No, that's not really accurate. I want to eat. But if I do a gut check (yep still there in abundance), it's not really "hunger". More like.. time to eat. I expect I'll be happy to eat at "Iftar" (approx 7:45).

That is still crazy. That is PC gone wild, nothing less. You want to eat late, have at it. Don't try to everyone else to do it so as not to offend our Muslim brethern. Talk about political correctness...:rolleyes:

I'm a strict carnivore. I would like to request that no one eat fruits or vegetables in my sight.

"Two cents' worth" could and perhaps should be a possessive, but you can get away with it unapostrophized as an adjectival phrase modifying "worth." Punctuate to taste, apparently.

"PC gone wild" is a ridiculous cliche and removes you from the conversation, sorry. But pretending I haven't seen it - it's about courtesy, not offence. Don't scarf down all the sandwiches when you know perfectly well there are people at the meeting not allowed to start eating them until later. Haven't you ever saved someone a plate of food at a buffet because you're worried all the good stuff will go before they get there?
What? That just makes no sense. The council is not requesting that people don't eat. They are asking that in a catered meeting, people eat later so that everyone gets the same chance.

Look, I think all religions have silly rules - and especially about eating. Wait, what? You can't eat until 19.00 because God told you? Oh shush. You can't eat meat today or this time next week until the end of your life because God told you? You're kidding. Hang on, you can't have those two things on the same plate...? etc etc etc.

It's not up to me to agree or disagree with how someone lives their life, but I can choose whether to be respectful or not.I wouldn't sneak high fat into a meal I was cooking for someone on a diet. I wouldn't put beef bouillon in a stew for a vegetarian and I wouldn't sneak pork into a dish for a Muslim.

SG - I thought you knew better than to take something I write seriously.

Sounds like the meeting and the catering was really poorly planned. I think it's ridiculous to offer refreshments but then suggest that you'd be rude to have some until they've been sitting out a while - because of some people's religion.

Will the sandwiches all be eaten before some have a chance at them? Then you didn't make enough.

From the article: And it has also staged a Bonfire Night party which featured a Bengal tiger instead of Guy Fawkes.

As a Bengals fan, this really offends me.

Boy, was my dad mad at the Bungles yesterday! ;)

I admit it's poor planning.

I wasn't really intending to defend the council so vehemently - it's just that there's a theme in the right wing newspapers that England kow-tows to Muslims, and it's found its way onto this board. When you read the facts it simply isn't true, but I guess when you sling enough mud some sticks.

On a related but separate topic, it reminded me of a story a friend told me about a wedding she attended. They had a chocolate wedding cake (as did I) and there was a little boy who started grizzling because he wanted some. Rather than tell the child, "No means no, that's a special cake" the mother went and asked the mother of the bride if they could bring forward the cutting of the cake because her son wanted some now. And she considered it! It must be a mother thing. Her daughter (childless) said absolutely not, they would cut it at the evening reception as planned.

and then they cut the little bastard's throat before throwing him in the dumpster. i'm certain his mother will teach her other children to sit quietly and not beg for cake now.

It's likely that the majority of the catering staff are volunteers who'd like to go home before the boring meeting starts, so they put the food out on covered trays and simply ask that people refrain until the break, out of courtesy to those who can't join them till then.

I wouldn't have a problem with this request, just as I'm sure no one would have a problem with any of the diabetics in the group having a sandwich when they needed to do so either.

If you don't think it's fair to wait, then go ahead and eat. Just don't eat everything in sight unless you insist on being a real arsehole.

Food For Thought: Diabetes is a medical condition--not a choice

A lot of people are diabetic through bad choices in the past too.

i definitely would not eat the catered food before everyone else did. that would just be rude. i would, however, very loudly and obnoxiously chow down on the HUGE effing pork sandwich I brought with me. Being the nice guy I am I'd even offer them some. I'd send it around on a little tray strapped to my dog's back. Who could resist a pork sandwich offered by a friendly dog?

I personally don't do this because I tend to be more hungry during the day. It's like when you eat a big meal right before you go to sleep you wake up starving, same thing. I normally wake up and take down a gatorade or a green tea.

You're right, I have to begin fasting at like 5:00am when it's pitch dark outside and break fast at like 7:00pm when it's still quite bright out.

The first day or two most people are starving come sundown. After that like you said, you're just thirsty, and God help you if you're a smoker.

They say it's best to break fast with this because this is what the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) broke his fast with.


Concerning the whole council meeting request thing: I don't think they're asking the non-Muslims to wait until after dark to begin eating because it's not fair to eat in front of fasting Muslims. Trust me we're used to it. The real reason they're asking is so theres something left for people who you've asked to attend your meeting instead of being home breaking fast with friends and family.


On a side note I just want to say I like fasting, I don't do it because God requires it of me I do it to show my love for God. Another reason is because it's the only time I deprive myself of practically anything. If I crave something any other time of year (food, drink, smoke, sex) I can pretty much have it within hours, but during the holy month it isn't the case. The bitter makes the sweet that much sweeter.

You're saying it's best to do it this way because that's the way you've always done it? How will you ever make any progress?

Progress? Come on, this is RELIGION. Progress is devil-work!

If you don't think there are plenty of examples of PC gone wild around you are sorely mistaken, but I would never "remove you from the conversation" because of simple statement you made to express your views, but hey, that's just me.:rolleyes:

It's a horrible cliche. Surely some punishment is due...?