Winning
 

I am not a parent nor will become a parent for years to come....but what are parents philosophy on teaching your kid about: winning.

How important is it to emphasize being the best and striving to win. I equate winning to success usually, don't think that's a bad thing to motivate me.

Are there really soccer games in America where there is no score and kids run around for 30 minutes kicking the ball? Because that reflects to absolutely nothing in real life.

You do your thing, and I do my thing. Why does there have to be a winner and a loser?

You see this in traffic sometimes. When you drive, you aren't competing with anyone. You are just going from point A to point B. If someone goes faster than you, then they go faster. So what? If they are able to pull into the lane in front of you, then so what? Even if it slows you down by half a second, that doesn't mean you "lose." You're still going to get to your destination in virtually the same amount of time.

As a parent, I teach my kids to try their best. To be the best they can be, but also to be happy and enjoy life. They are both doing well, and they are both happy. If you feel like a loser whenever anyone is better than you at something, you will always feel like a loser. There are 6 billion people on the planet. You will never be #1 at anything.

Yes, there are soccer games at younger ages where there is no score recorded, but the kids have a pretty good idea who won and who lost. In those games, the goal is to have fun and to gain skills. Not to win. If one team is really pumped about winning, they actually lose, because they missed the point.

It reflects plenty in my life, and I like it that way. Yup, sometimes success is winning. More often, in my life, success is learning new things, acquiring new skills, loving and being loved, and having fun. My daughter's soccer team (made up of a group of friends) has lost every game this season, against mostly travel teams playing in the rec leagues for reasons unknown. But they are coming off the field smiling and teams with the highest score are coming off scowling because they let one or two in or didn't beat our girls by as much as their closest rivals did. I know which girl I'm glad I'm taking home.

Quit wasting time on the intenet and go practice your violin!

ha! We quoted the same bit.

Maybe you should strive to make your life less about winning, fresh? Clearly you are questioning it in some way. What prompted the question? I have to say, in a group of people, the one who's instantly going to turn me off is the uber-competitor who makes everything a competition and must win. But then I'd proabably strike them as a feckless hippy loser.

:lol: I thought tiger-mom too

The competitive types tend to broadcast their intentions as they approach, and therefore are easy to redirect right past you and into a crumpled heap of confusion and disappointment, on the ground behind you as you walk away. They can easily be tricked into gloating over "winning" when in fact you have produced exactly the outcome that you intended. Their narrow vision doesn't allow them to see the bigger picture.

The most important competition is with yourself, i.e. self-control. Among the three key factors shown to be indicators of a child's future success in life (IQ, family's socio-economic status, and self-control) only self-control can be improved with effort.

I actually wrote tiger mom and then deleted it.

So it is true what they say, "I was just sayin' what everybody was thinkin'!"

Talking of tigers...

The Tiger cub has a fixation on winning.
When we play one-on-one games I might fix it so that he wins, ie I react slightly slower in Animal Snap, because it takes someone his age longer to process the images on the cards. In games of chance I let things happen - he's won so far but that's just luck. In games with other children either there hasn't been a win or lose situation or he has been among the winners.

I'm steeling myself for his first real Lose. I know it's an issue because other teachers and TAs have seen it. Solemn denial first, then tears, then minor tantrum.

He also wants to be first in every queue (line).
I'm working on that.
When we do Wake Up Shake Up I get him to move to a space in the middle of the hall. Previously he was door-hanging *. He is very good-natured though, and will move as directed. Now I'm trying to break about 3 other children of the habit, including an elective mute (he will speak happily to other children/ at home but not to teachers or TAs).

Sorry - a bit OT but seemed appropriate to me.

* the children exercising nearest the door know they will be first in the queue when they line up to go back to class.

Interesting points.

But if winning isn't important, why do we keep score? Why do we become fans and root for our respective teams? Competition is human nature, that's why why we celebrate the biggest stage in the world every 4 years at the Olympics.

I still think winning is very important part of life and needs to be taught to our youth. Winning drives college and professional sports, drives being an industry leader in the corporate world, is a huge reason why America is capitalistic. Winning to win is also an aesthetic pleasure, that I and many other people possess as well.

I guess at a young age winning isn't everything, but once I grew up I realized the importance of winning or at least doing everything I could to try to win. Motivating the youth to try to win, I think that's a good thing.

The difference is between winning, and accomplishing something.

Say you lost a soccer game, but you got good exercise, had fun, and picked up some pointers to improve your skills in the process--then you accomplished something. But if you played against a bunch of six-year-olds and kicked their asses without trying, then you didn't have to work out much, you didn't improve your skills, and if you had fun doing it you're a bit of a sociopath. You won, but you didn't accomplish anything.

I do understand the much-hyped fear that children today have their self-esteems coddled, and in situations where letting "everyone win" also equals not encouraging the kids to accomplish anything for fear of failing, then yes, it's a bad thing. But winning can be dangerous along those same lines, because it tells the kids they've reached their peak, there's no point in trying harder because they're already great.

Accomplishment with or without winning are both okay; winning without accomplishment is not something I ever want my kids to do.

Good point Clod, everyone wins is just stupid in my opinion. Guess that's what I'm trying to say boiling it all down.

What about giving an "E" for effort? Is that okay?

I think most of us would be lying if we didn't admit to liking the feeling of being a winner, but there are ways of winning that are good, and some that are bad. If striving to do your best causes you to win, then that's great, but if you're competing simply to win at all costs, then that's not so great.

I try to teach my kids to have some humility and to be greatful for the gifts they've been blessed with that allow them to excell in some areas, and to be supportive of others who are better than them at other things.

Competition is good for kids, not just for the feelings they get when they win at something, but also it teaches them how to deal with not being the best, which is a very important thing to learn because you're going to lose a lot more times than you win in life. That's how we learn and why we try harder (or hopefully we try harder rather than give up which is part of the lesson of losing).

This is just a few thoughts, but there's a lot more to how I feel about my kids winning and losing things. It's a really complex issue because kids do need to feel successful and know that there are some things they're good at and that they have a right to be happy about that, but they also need to learn to accept that there are others who are really good at different things or even the same things, and you can't always be the best, but it's good to try your best and learn to be happy knowing you've done your best.

wow. I don't value "winning" or "competition" at all. I wouldn't teach it to my kids and I don't think I did. I value thoughtfulness, compassion, self-realization, and fairness much more, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff ranks higher too.

I'm actually pretty appalled at this philosophy that winning=success. It certainly doesn't represent success to me. However, if it's important to you, fine, teach your kids that--we all teach our kids those things that are important to us. Maybe it's a personality thing.

Winning is important. Sometimes. But it's not the be-all-and-end-all. Some people have natural talent, some people acquire talent through hard work and practice. Both can be great, both can be winners -and the worker can end up being better than the natural player. But if they're pitted against each other and forced to have winner/loser labels from the get-go, how's the loser ever going to be encouraged to work and develop their talent? Both should have a chance -you never know who's going to end up on top. In my experience, the kids with natural talent often take it for granted and don't work hard enough to fulfil their potential. The ones with grit and determination often are the winners in the end. But if you call them losers before they really get to work, are they going to stick with it and give it a shot?

And, outside of sport and similar activities... most of life isn't a game. Treating it as such and trying to "win" is imbecilic/republican. Life is about being happy, loving, being loved, respecting yourself, and a zillion other wishy-washy hippie things. If you always strive to win in every aspect of life, you are really setting yourself up for failure.

Teach your kids your values, and to be the best they can be. But whatever you do, when you have kids, do NOT make them compete against each other for your affections. Your love, support, and attention should be given to all equally, regardless of who is the "best."

In certain areas of life, as Monster said, say sports, skill competitions, etc., winning and striving to win are reasonable goals. But in every day life, people who focus on outdoing other people just because they can tend to be arrogant assholes, or at the very least neurotic and unpleasant. No one wants to be around them. They are the kind of people who would sabotage their coworkers, belittle their friends, and fight over their parents' estates to get the bigger share. Those are my opinions, and may be beyond the scope of what you are really talking about though, fresh.

But if your values are that competition is good and winning is all, isn't that contradictory?

It wouldn't be my preference. But I have no control over what other people's values are, and I think it's a given that parents pass them along whatever they are.

I'm not the most athletic, nor the most smart, nor the most successful person for my age, hardly. And it's because of my losses, second places, a countless amounts, that I want to win all the more. It takes self determination, sacrifice, hardship, but I always see the blood and tears go in it to compete for the the chance to be victorious. And if I lose? Then I chalk it up, and get ready for my next chance to try to win.

It applied to youth sports. It applied to grades in school, it applied to getting a job over the other candidates. It applies in so many areas of life that equate to success.

I would pass down the same "hard work to succeed, hard work to win" to my children, personally. It has nothing to do with not loving or sharing arrogant values, it's telling them you need to try to win because your life will be better if you compete in this dog eat dog world. That's reality for me.

blecch. what a horrible worldview.

Thanks for the open mindedness.

I'm not sure if you were responding to me with this post Cloud, but I think you might have been.

I don't think that just the fact of winning means you're successful. I did say that I feel it's a really complex issue, but I try to teach my kids to try their best, and if winning is a benefit of that, then that's nice for them too. It's certainly not the be all and end all, but I think it's naive to think that our society isn't set up to have us all compete for things right throughout our lives. As fresh put it, it carries through to adulthood when we're looking for jobs which for most of us is a competition which is generally very important to try to win. Knowing you did your best doesn't put food on the table if you don't get the job.

So I guess what I'm saying is that it'd be nice to be all 'hippy' about things - and I say that with no disrespect what so ever - but the reality is that there are some things in life that we really need to win, and kids need to be taught that urgency so that they don't grow up to be useless.

It does apply to grades in school. It shouldn't. This is so relevant to me now.

My daughter is just about to enter high school. She's been in a public but "alternate" program all her school life, where the main difference to regular school is emphasis on co-operative rather than competitive learning. "Open" School. You are only compared to your previous performance, not to other students. you are encouraged to revisit/strengthen what you have learned through helping/tutoring others. This school regularly gets high rankings and grades when school comparisons are made, so they are clearly not failing their students. There is an "Open" High School, entry is by lottery -this year over 400 students for 100 places. Hebe is 24th on the wait list which means she has a fair chance of getting in, so I started really researching it. It has the best ranking of all the schools in the area, is consistently top 10 in the state (out of about 800) -up against private schools who select on educational merit. What makes it so awesome? Learning is not a competition. it's a challenge and a community enterprise. It's not about being the best in school, it's about being the best that you can be.

no, Ali, I wasn't responding to you

there's a difference here in my mind: On the one hand, there are things like doing your best, working hard, being loyal, being practical and responsible, meeting challenges, improving yourself, pushing yourself past your comfort zone to grow and learn, understanding your own strengths and weaknesses--these are all tools that lead to individual success.

On the other hand, there is a philosophy of winning is everything, beating the other person no matter what, the end justifies the means, keeping up with the Joneses. These things are what I am getting from fresh's words and tone. You can have the best grades if you cheat, rise to the top of a company by sleeping to the top and blackmail, have the biggest house and fanciest car with crushing debt--but this is not winning at life. That's really what I'm talking about.

I agree with all that Cloud. There are lots of different definitions of what winning is too. It just depends on the situation.

It's funny, but I didn't get the same message from fresh that you did though. I got that he's finding things pretty competitive in his life at the moment and that he's glad that he values winning (rightly or wrongly depending on your perspective). He's just starting out in life. I'll bet there are a lot of things he has to compete for.

I suggest reading The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy.

Among many other topics, it talks about setting the right goals and having the right success criteria.

To steal Cloud's words, things like winning and competition aren't opposed in any way to thoughtfulness, compassion, self-realization and that sort of thing. You can value them all. I'd go so far as to say you should.

a very thought provoking topic, I must say

Yeah, it's not a simple answer. There are times for competition, and during those times, you want to win. But much of life is not a competition, and even though you can try to turn those parts into a competition, they don't have to be.

Driving in traffic is an area where many people turn something non-competitive into a competition. Some people view work as a competition. Maybe in their offices, it's structured that way, but it doesn't need to be. Businesses compete with one another, but employees usually don't need to. Sales may be an exception here. Academically, there is only competition when trying to get one of a limited number of slots in a school or program, but once you are in that program, the point is to learn, not to get better grades than someone else.

Competition is only needed when there is a limited resource and too many people want it.

It's good to have ambition and set high goals for yourself, especially when you are starting out in life. If you want to be a professional athlete, or a high-powered CEO, of course there's going to be more competition in your life. But most people's lives and goals do not fall within these narrow areas.

I also question your use of "aesthetic pleasure" and extrapolation of the value of competition in all areas of life. I don't mean you should settle for being mediocre; I think the rush you may get from being on top is dangerous, and might lead you into ethically questionable behavior, and destruction of relationships. You wouldn't want to compete with your friends, or significant other, or co-workers, for instance--you want to "play fair and share" with these people.

Sounds like you equate winning, or competition, with cheating. Not true. I even said last night, during an intense round of Yahtzee ;) that if you cheat to win it's not really a win. You can be competitive and set on winning, but you don't have to throw your personal ethics in the trash to do it. This is what people who lose a lot use to feel better: that winners must always be cheating.

I don't equate it, no. But I think there's a correlation when your core philosophy is "winning is everything."

Most certainly. But there are very competitive people who wouldn't throw the competition under the bus. Winning is everything means just that: at the expense of everything else.

My family is quite competitive. None of us would kill the other to win a round of Trivial Pursuit, but we're going to try really really hard to beat the crap out of them. We don't play fair or share, we're cutthroat yet honest. And it's really really fun.

;)

but I don't think Fresh is talking about Trivial Pursuit or Yahtzee. He's talking about teaching your children to do whatever you can to come out on top, and I think there's some danger there.

Well, fresh himself introduced the game avenue, so I'm extrapolating. And I really don't think it's any differerent. You're either a bloodthirsty asshole or you're not, and being competitive does not preclude or demand proverbial death.

Besides, soccer doesn't count. It's whole raison d'etre in the US is to give the kids who can't play any other sports something to do: no scoring, no keeping track. It's sweet and all, and leaves to the competitors the real sports. :lol:

:bolt:

In his first post he mentions 'striving to win' in order to be successful. I think that's a very healthy trait to teach children. Its the effort that's important, and without the 'win' goal post I don't see how the effort would be expended or improved upon.

We are NOT all equal in all things. The sooner competitors and the contented learn this, the better they can function in their respective realm.

There's also the common companion to winning. That is, perfection.

Perfection is the enemy of getting things done. Getting things done is how most of us provide value to the world, thus earning our living.

I can't help but be reminded of a thread on the economy and wondering if this topic is somehow connected in FC's mind.It seems to me that someone who is underemployed is losing, if they would prefer to be fully-employed. Someone in that position might want to start providing more value to others to rectify the situation.

Sometimes winning is not being #1 but recognizing reality and making the best of it.

(I'm so damn full of platitudes lately, it makes me sick.)

I plan to teach my, as yet imaginary, children to strive to constantly improve and push themselves to the edge of their "limits." In that way you often win and achieve success in many forms. It also keeps the focus where it should be: On the things you can change.

You can always improve, but you can't always win. There is always someone who can beat you. If your happiness hinges on winning, you will often be upset. If it hinges on improving and doing your best, you will always be happy unless you betray yourself.

= my life story

“Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and enjoy working in the present toward the future.”

The world keeps score. Life keeps score.

In my opinion, winning is first and foremost achieving one's goals. And these goals can be everything. And while winning and success are laudable, they become bad things if you add "at all costs".

As a younger man (25), I entered a sports competion with the only objective of getting to the finish line. It was a triathlon, also called an IronMan. I trained for more than a half-year. I did get pass the line, was proud to have done it even being beyond the 300th place.

Success depends on the objectives you fix for yourself.

Spot on Gunmaster.
My older daughter is very competitive but always with a sense of fair-play. As an artist as well as a fencer, she sees the beauty in the action and appreciates the intellectual exercise. A while back she got beaten in a pretty intense bout and I made sure she congratulated the girl again after she cooled off. There are formalities in fencing that are observed to assist in keeping the passion confined to the strip. I had a bout go to la belle a couple months ago and I saluted my opponent as is expected. He failed to return the salute. After the bout another fencer approached me saying he was glad to see me win after my opponent failed to observe a nicety that helps people focus on respect for their opponents.

My younger daughter is less competitive but occasional successes on the field hockey pitch have helped her self confidence immensely. She is doing very well in school and is actually practicing her drums because she's learned that results follow effort.

I've seen some really bad stuff as well, but if you focus on having fun, getting exercise, and developing character, I think competition is healthy.

I hate being beat. I hate knowing that another 5% of effort from me could have made something happen, and that I stopped short. I love to win. I love staking out high peaks and getting their first.

I think a big part of my life has been defined by that drive. I wouldn't be the same person creatively without it. I wouldn't be able to sustain a career in this industry without it.

So, yes, I will be doing what I can to pass that on to my kids. I will do what I can to teach them that most of the best things in life are hard to do, and that you have to push yourself to the limit of your capacity to make them work.

I hope they love to win. I hope they aren't content with "trying".

YES

That's not about winning, more about courtesy on the game field. Yet, that attitude usually comes with winning "at all costs".

In whatever activity, if someone beats me fair and square, well, I'll try to understand why and, if possible, learn how to do it.

The ability to win or lose gracefully is on the wane. This saddens me.

I had a friend (who is older than I) once remark that a team came in second in the Superbowl. I think this remark was driven by the mantelful of soccer participation trophies her daughters had gathered.