Ending God's Tax Exempt Status
 

Does anyone know of an organization trying to end this abomination?
I would very much like to get involved.
I've searched but not found one.
Also, be a good discussion.

I have no issue with charities that provide 75+% of their income to actually doing charitable works being tax exempt.
Churches are not charities, not by a long-shot.
They are clubs and clubs are not tax exempt.

I am also for taking exempt status from any charity that falls below a pre-set line (sure if they need to "get their house in order" for ONE year and send in a letter showing why and presenting their books IN ADVANCE I could see a one year ride) and removing their exempt status.

The last study I saw showed the average church use 3-5% of their income for charitable works, and THAT definition is VERY liberal.

This needs to end yesterday.
Church is a business and only a business, they need to pay for the infrastructure like everyone else.

rkz - I agree completely. I feel exactly the same way about sports franchises.

A church can qualify as a charitable organization by providing a number of certain services, not just by giving a certain percentage of their income to other charitable organizations.

Also, a church has to be run as a non-profit to even be considered for tax-exempt status.

How many churches are actually run as for-profit, other than COTWP?

Run as non-profit and existing for growth to spread a "message" (man that was hard to type) are contradictions.
I feel the ONLY organizations that should be tax exempt are charitable ones that meet a specific standard for a minimum amount used for administrative/infrastructure costs annually.
Yes, that includes private schools. Profit is profit, as for churches, growth is profit.

So every organization that spreads a set of ideas and seeks to enlarge its audience is therefore, by default, a for-profit enterprise? And what would your suggested minimum amount be? Are we talking a percentage or total funds delivered?

I think they should tax all people standing in water. oh!
http://www.mwscomp.com/mpfc/tfgumby.gif

I'm not a big fan of organized religion, but I don't necessarily agree that churches are a business. It doesn't make sense to me for churches to be set up as for-profit entities.

Are they taking in money for growth? If yes then they are a business.
The percentage is toward charity alone for tax exempt status.

why does money for "growth" = business? All charities fundraise to expand their services. Also, many clubs are tax exempt, and all churches operate charities.

Services for others, not expanding infrastructure and administration.
Again, if a charity spends more of its funds than 20 or 25% for administrative costs instead of their charter they should lose their tax exemption until they repair the issue.
Still, constantly repeating myself in here.

but . . . (confused) . . . infrastructure and administration are necessary components of providing services, whether for-profit or not.

I mean, I get what you're saying here; it just sounds a little ingenuous to me.

i used to work at Denny's

sometimes, I would give one of the cooks a ride in... He lived in the project in Coatesville. (scary area) a couple times on my way there, I'd be behind a big black Cadillac with a Clergy sticker on the bumper. The area was a horseshoe of row homes that had junk in the yards, bigwheels in the street, shutters hanging down...et friggin cetera. The Cadillac parked in front of one of these units. No difference visible on the outside...I bet the inside was a far cry tho.

non profit my ass.

I have family that are "clergy", they are live FAR above the income level of their constituency.
Business/scam.

and I know a bunch of priests, who by no stretch of the imagination are living rich. They are all actively involved in numerous charities serving the poor of this town, of which there are many.

So what?

There are bad clergy and good clergy; bad church administrtors and good ones. Just like all people. I do not see how this relates to their tax status.

Do away with $8,022,000,000 in agricultural subsidies.
And with $23,000,000,000 in foreign aid.
Don't forget the $418,000,000,000 in Medicare/Medicaid.
Not to mention the billions and billions in lost taxes on forest, farm and open space land that don't pay the same rate as Joe Homeowner.

Now who else can we spew a little hate on?

Off Topic.
Also, I am not talking about government spending I am talking about more government money.
Hate?
No emotion here... at least not from me.

Cloud, it relates to their tax status because they are exempt for what reason?
Seriously?
Why are they exempt?
They are not charities. Studies show that churches use 95%, on average, of their funds for "administrative costs".
There is no reason for them to be tax exempt.
In most states they own more land and investments than any single industry.
They are a business, nothing more, and we should treat them as such.
I am not saying they should not exist, I am saying that unless they are a charity and use the predominance of their funds for charitable activities (preaching is not charity) they do not have any reason to be tax exempt.

I work with non-profit organizations all the time, as well as religious organizations, and I would like to point out that your definition of non-profit entities is too narrow. Non-profit entities legally comprise more types of organizations that just "charities." So, your premise that if an entity is not a "charity," it should not be tax-exempt doesn't wash.

What is being a prick about wanting to end the free ride religion gets in this nation?
Please be specific.
If they are non-profit just to self-exist they should not be tax exempt.
If they provide a service like an educational foundation, charity school or museum then standards must be met. Income to service percentage vs. administrative costs being the determining factor.
A church exists just to exist, though most invest quite a bit and exist to grow.

Again, having to repost something I have already written, sad.

hey, it's a DORK!

nothing.

the prick thing was about you and bruce pissing at each other again.

oh, and editing a post from one line.....( 'Off Topic') to a whole three paragraph post is kind of lame.

So you want to do away with separation of church and state.

Nope.
Tax does not tell anyone what to do.
Pure income to tax ratio like ANY business.

Or, BETTER YET, they can DO the charity the actually CLAIM to do with the money you give them.

ok, that's 2 posts in a row that you have changed drastically after a reaction was posted.

you suck

you can go fuck yourself with your redundant condescending tone and stupid nonproductive whining. you're a malcontent. you have too much time on your hands and all you do is regurgitate shit you read somewhere else.

dead to me

Tax exempt non-profits in my zip code, look up yours here
ADAM MCGUGIN MEMORIAL RESEARCH FUND
ALLENPOWER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION
AMERICAN LEGION
AMERICAN LEGION POST 190 STEVENSON BAXTER
AMIKE UNITED ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA INC
ARCHDIOCESAN SENIOR CITIZENS COUNCIL OF PHILADELPHIA
BETA CHI ALUMNI ASSOCIATION OF LAMBDA CHI ALPHA
BIG HOUSE PLAYS & SPECTACLES INC
BROOKHAVEN FIRE COMPANY
BROOKHAVEN FIRE COMPANY NO 1 RELIEF ASSOCIATION 04
CHESTER CHRISTIAN SCHOOL AKA THE CHRISTIAN ACADEMY
CHESTER CITY HEALTH ASSOCIATION
CHESTER UPLAND CITIZENS FOREDUCATIONAL PROGRESS INC
COLUMBUS QUINCENTENNIAL FOUNDATION INC
COMMUNITY GOSPEL CHAPEL
DELAWARE COUNTY ASSOCIATION OF BOROUGHS
DELAWARE COUNTY FIELD AND STREAM ASSOC
DELAWARE COUNTY INTERFAITH HOSPITALITY NETWORK
DELAWARE VALLEY MENSA
FAMILY AND LIFE ACHIEVEMENT CENTER
FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE
FREE & ACCEPTED MASONS OF PENNSYLVANIA
FREE & ACCEPTED MASONS OF PENNSYLVANIA
FREE & ACCEPTED MASONS OF PENNSYLVANIA
FRIENDS OF CALEB PUSEY HOUSE
GARAGE INC
JOSEPH J BARRETT SR MEMORIAL ALL-STAR GAME AND SCHOLARSHIP FUND
KOINONIA FELLOWSHIP OF CHURCHES
LIFEWERKS INC
MENS INTERNATIONAL PEACE EXCHANGE
ORDER OF AHEPA
PANHELLENIC ASSOCIATION OF WIDENER UNIVERSITY
PARKSIDE SENIOR CENTER
PENN-DEL ARCHERS
PI LAMBDA PHI FRATERNITY
RESURRECTION LIFE CHURCH
ROYAL ARCH MASONS OF PENNSYLVANIA
SHORTWOOD WILDLIFE ASSOCIATION
STUDENTS IN LEADERSHIP PROGRAM INC
TALL CEDARS OF LEBANON OF NORTH AMERICA
THETA CHI FRATERNITY INC
TOASTMASTERS INTERNATIONAL
TREE OF LIFE MINISTRIES
UKRAINIAN NATIONAL WOMENS LEAGUE OF AMERICA BROOKHAVEN BRANCH 2
UPLAND BAPTIST CHURCH
UPLAND FIRE CO NO 1

harsh, Jim!

You calling me a malcontent, condescending and a prick. PRICELESS!
I am so happy right now!

Bruce, thank you for making my point so vividly!

It's tw's brother!

so, you've got churches, clubs, fraternal organizations, community organizations, scholarship funds, welcome wagons, international organizations and --surprise--charities! As I said, too narrow a definition.

fuck him. he just made my ignore list. coffin dodger.

Woohoo!!!!

The welcome wagon nor a frat should be exempt if they pull in enough to pay taxes.
Scholarship funds, they provide far more service than they will ever need admin to break that threshold... no problem.
I don't see the issue.

Dude...mellow man. Go make another captain and coke.

Among the non-profits in my Zip...La Leche League...hooray for boobies!

(ducks to avoid flying bodily fluids)

Exactly, their message is immaterial.

the messages may be immaterial, but the purposes are not--at least according to the tax code.

Their purpose is their message.

I personally see no reason whatsoever that a church should not have to pay taxes. I see no reason why they should pay more in taxes than any other organization that draws in the same amount of money... but I see no reason why they shouldn't have to pay.

Which is why they buy all the land and invest so much?
Yeah... sell me another one.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...perity0909.jpg

At one time, recently, the Mormon Church was (if ranked) the third largest business in the US.

I think it depends a lot on which branch of the Church you're dealing with.

If you are talking about the Evangelical strands of Christianity, much of their development included concepts similar to the Methodist faiths: that to work hard is Godly, that to acquire a better standing in the community and business world was a sign that you had worked hard and were therefore Godly. Now, that may well not be what's going on in the Evangelical sects now...but from such a base it's easy to see how gaining wealth and 'doing well' was not and is not seen as contradicting their faith.

In the Catholic confession, however, whilst it was always acceptable that The Church gain status and wealth, in individual terms they had more apostolic assumptions of their clergy.

rk, I am as hostile to religion as the next dwellar (especially if the next dwellar is you :P) but we need to be careful not to make assumptions of the whole, when it's a much more fragmented picture than that.

Across the world, your own country included, much of the charity and outreach work that helps some of the world's most vulnerable people, is conducted by well meaning Christians, with their Church as the organisation funding, managing and providing that exercise. Those are genuine charities. There are no doubt churches which are run like businesses and preachers who have made themselves wealthy. They are not charities. But by the same token, there are secular charities which are scams and yet get tax breaks.

I do think churches should have to prove their charitable status like any other organisation. (though you wouldn't be able to impose that on the Catholic Church without causing a massive worldwide argument).

Churches sell redemption, forgiveness of sins, the path to Heaven. They should be taxed.

I would have more compassion for churches were it not for how those who attend weekly service, but don't "donate" are treated.

If churches were taxed this would be the natural outcome?

I can't see it either Ibram. Except for homeless shelters and Salvation Armys here I see no community benefit. I figure 30% of my income to the government is enough of a give that even before I left the church I stopped tithing my babys milk money away.

You are so full of shit, Spexx. First off, the Catholic church used to sell indulgences. They do not anymore, and the Protestant church never did. So your assertion that churches "sell" redemption is a stupid metaphor at best. Secondly, no church I have ever been in treated those who did not tithe any differently than those who did. The whole thing is very anonymous in fact--and even moreso nowadays, when any church of moderate size allows giving to be done online if the churchgoer prefers.

Rkz, I'd like to know if you see any differences between a non-profit community theatre troupe and a non-profit church. Should the non-profit theatre troupe be taxed as well?

I believe there are several churches whose expenditures may be questionable - most of those are larger churches, as in 500 & up in congregation. However, smaller churches, most of the pastors have a secular job to help support their families, because "the giving" pays just the basic bills. As stated earlier, you can't possibly group "all" churches or even other non-profit organizations into one lump sum - they are not all the same and as such are not "run" the same.

I can't speak to how non-tithers are treated, but online donations are much less anonymous than collection boxes, or even baskets.If a church would qualify as non-profit under the same rules as a theatre troupe, then there's no need for the religious component for non-profit status.

hmm. Perhaps a more rounded education might help? Churches are active in youth organizations, disaster relief, immigration assistance, senior care, education, victim assistance, family counseling . .. the list goes on.

I'm not saying there aren't abuses of the system by churches. I'm troubled by the attitude that seems to be prevalent here that "religion is bad; churches should be abolished." I don't like organized religion myself, but that's because my spirituality is private--between the gods and myself. But I mean, come on-- to say they serve no purpose or provide the community no benefit is inaccurate.

If it turns out they are making a profit, FUCK YES!. As an actor I have seen this happen and people getting rich off of actors who do not get paid... it is disgusting.

I have said before, I am not hosile toward religion as long as it does not break the three: Do not break the threshold of church and state IN ANY WAY (that includes lobbying your mythology to any laws)
Do not abuse children with ideas about eternal torture, child abuse of any kind should be prosecuted by law at all times.
Do not go door-to-door or phone unsolicited, this should be illegal for anyone, not just religion.

The tax thing, honestly I poorly worded the title of this thread now that I see that churches are only about half of those that need their tax exempt status removed.

Being "active in" and qualifying as an Actual Charity are two things that do not meet anywhere in the middle.
I have been active in charity my whole life.
I have also BEEN a charity, for three months out of the year for three years in a row... trust me... they are NOT the same thing, not by a LONG SHOT.
And their taxes would reflect that.

Why the attack?

Then what does a church do? On Sunday morning, you goes in, you pays your money, you're forgiven and on track to heaven. I wasn't talking about indulgences, I was talking about fee for service. You pay your donation, and in return, you get......what?

Our church gave us a statement of our donations at the end of every year, so it was by no means anonymous, and they printed the previous week's total take in the current week's program.

I don't understand your first statement about a rounded education.

You should be aware though that the Salvation Armys and homeless shelters are Christain organizations. I've done plenty of missions in my youth where we helped out in shelters.

Exactly, even though the Salvation army and some of the foreign aid organizations have had their problems, most of them, now, have very good books and would have any issue with this.

I agree, and I'm honestly not sure how the rules are different. I'm merely pointing out a logical conclusion of rkzenrage's assertions that all non-profits should give a provable base percentage to charity. There are valuable social services that many non-profits can provide without being direct charities.

Unless as a nation you are prepared to do what it takes to resolve problems like homelessness, drug-abuse, poverty and assorted other ills, I suggest you allow some of those churches to continue their outreach work. They take up a lot of the slack in the system. There are no doubt many are deserving of greater scrutiny, but just as the Church has historically been a force for obedience and acceptance, it's also often been the one organisation that has sought to ameliorate some of the worst conditions for poor communities.

Just look at Jim and Tammy Fay Bakker.

What if they use the extra money to grow--to buy better costumes, rent a bigger theatre space, put out more advertisements to get more audience members?

Because your comment seemed flippant and directly intended to offend. I didn't realize you honestly had experienced such things in a church.

No offense, but your church sucked. Printing the total amount given is very different than a list of who gave it. In most churches, less than 50% of the regular attendees give any money at all. But those who do give want to know their money is being used accountably, which is one reason yearly budgets and giving amounts are published--not necessarily to guilt people into giving more, but to show where the money's actually going.

The "fee for service" is actually a valid idea--you are paying for the weekly comfort, the marriage ceremonies, the funerals, the marital counseling, the childcare while you participate... you are also contributing to some amount of direct charity work, though how much varies widely with each church, as rkz has been pointing out. But forgiveness is absolutely not a function of church attendance or monetary donation, in the Protestant faith at any rate.

Was there something about "showing that they are using the funds to provide the service intended" that confused you?