they're outdated

In what way classicman?

They seem to create more problems than they solve. They drive up the costs of everything and make products virtually non-competitive in a world economy.

Is that because the cost of manufacturing products rises when workers ask to be paid enough money on which to live?

Here it is all to common that the "Union system" is being abused. I am not against a fair wage and don't intend to say that I have a better plan, but I've heard too many stories to the contrary.

While we watch GM plants shut down all the time. The industry can't keep up with 40 dollar an hour wages. And, I know many people who have worked in these union high-paying shops and many have said they really don't work very hard. Sometimes they play cards.

The Honda plants around here have a much better model, imho. They pay really good wages (25/hour is typical), have no union, the employees work their butts off, and everyone is happy. They tend to not need lay-offs and shutdowns.

The stories are never a complete picture, only the highlights, that are cherry picked, to make the storytellers point.

Which proves that American workers are willing to return a days work for a fair wage. If they are not working, ie playing cards, then it's definitely a management problem.

...and as we all know 85% of all problems...

True, but I've heard them from both sides and the topic of conversation was not about this subject. Workers being paid $30 an hour versus $30 a month put are at a severe disadvantage in a world economy.

Trained, equipped and motivated, $30/hr workers, can certainly compete with $3/hr unskilled workers, by being more productive and producing better quality.

There is no union shop where a bum can't be terminated for not doing their job... none.
There's always contract language that requires management to follow a set procedure, to prevent termination at the whim of a supervisor, to make room for the wife's nephew, or without just cause.
You may not like him, but you can't fire him if he's doing his job properly.

I have, however, seen too many cases of terminated minorities/handicapped, going to the Labor Board (government) claiming prejudice, then being reinstated when in fact they were a bum. This is not an option for the rest of us.

I agree, I think you might've overreacted a bit, but if your experience with agnosticism has been negative that is understandable. Agnostic is a pretty general term though, most agnostics seem to have different reasons for and different resulting beliefs. Generally we just believe in "the possibility of something else." I'm not hedging my bets, I just have hope. Maybe its selfish or silly, but I don't want this lifetime to be my only one, there is so much I won't get to experience. So hopefully there is reincarnation, or at least a super awesome heaven. Like you've said though, we haven't found the evidence for it, doesn't mean it isn't there though. Perhaps we just haven't looked in the right place (try that rock over there!) or our minds still just can't comprehend it. I don't know of any agnostics who try and convert or push their ideals onto others, so why let it bother you? I don't care what you do as long as you don't insult me (which you did unintentionally so no harm really), or try and make me like you. Its just all about the hope for me.

If someone gives you a gift and you don't accept it, whose gift is it?

I thought that they shut down the GM plants for trucks to make fuel efficient cars. I didn't know it was a Union thing.

Crikey DanaC you have done me cold.
How did you know I thought Atheists were less intelligent than Agnostics.
I guess you probably also know I think believers are dull non thinking cop outs.

You see its thing like this (your mind reading ability ) that keep me Agnostic

Tell me where I said that.