The physics at that level aren't understood now. If we find something that doesn't fit the laws as they are understood now, the laws are changed. Happens all the time. All the rules haven't been discovered. But they still exist, discovered or not. And things either follow those rules - physics - or don't - magic.

I can empathize with you, marichiko. It's clear you desire to have more in your experience of reality than just matter. You're not alone in this. I used to be more like that myself. But now I can't be included in the "us" that stands in "awe" of stars on a clear summer night. Besides, where I live there is no such thing as "a clear summer's night;" to much smog. Although I have been in northern Quebec on a camping trip and saw the great misty road that is the Milky Way; that was cool. Meteor showers too. I admit that watching a meteor sends a little shiver down my spine.

Alas, when I look at stars I see stars. When I see a vivid sunset, I know it's because of all the particulates in the air.

My "Are we not men?" question was a reference to DEVO, the Ohio band that promoted de-volution, a topic that is somewhere on this string; I acknowledge women, men, and hermaphrodites, of course.

"for starters?" That sounds like you are some professor and I'm the naive freshman who needs direction in understanding the world.

I've read and enjoy E.O. Wilson. His Ants book was great. And Dennet is a good explicator of some of the things we're talking about. And no, I DO NOT have his robotic dog.

For the record, it's true that the only definitive thing one could say about reality is that "something exists." Perhaps we're all pawns in the dream world of some entity we've never met. I'll take my "leap of faith" into the material world. You're lucky to have faith in something greater than matter; that must be comforting.

And there is no such thing as bi-polar disorder or Down Syndrome.

Hope everybody is having a good weekend, materially, spiritually, or otherwise.:neutral:

Re: Re: Re: Antisocial
 

A sort of anal response.

Ban Vular Freudian!

There are only three RULES of the Cellar.

1. Do not try to break the law using the Cellar.
2. Do not try to break the Cellar.
3. Do not be "intolerably irritating".

The meaning of that last item is of course open to interpretation. But basically, if you are a troll, attention whore, moron, spammer, single-issue hammer, or otherwise want to hurt or "test" this community, you WILL be removed and banned.
If you post a link on your first post, expect your message to disappear, and your account to be banned. If you post a message that looks like a pitch in any way, expect your message to disappear. If you post a "real" message on your first post, and a pitch message on your second, expect both messages to disappear. We are extremely effective at this, and we are paying attention.

So, because you know it's stars and particulates that makes it less beautiful? Less awe-inspiring? Alas, indeed, how sad for you that you are not awed by the beauty of these things.

Anal? Why yes, yes it is. Ibram was describing how an asshole acts and posts.:rolleyes:

Instead of denying that it exists at all, I deny the last word. The implications of the word 'disorder' are inapporpriate in this case. It is simply a way to describe someone's behaviour. Plus, we've all seen the bizzar side effects of labeling something a disorder, it becomes an excuse and is used in cases where it doesn't apply, as if to say "well I have a disorder so there's nothing that can be done about how I behave".

Yeah, I think I agree with 9th Engineer. I think it's the actions that make the disorder, not the disorder making you not able to not do something.

I also REALLY hate it when kids my age blame everything on ADD. "oh, sorry, I can't help being a jerk, i have ADD!" "oh, whoops, I have ADD so I can do that!" etc

Every piece of information that becomes generally accepted will be used by someone, somewhere for their own purposes even if they have to twist it to fit. My response to them is, that's a shame but there's no reason you have to be an asshole too. ;)

sad
 

Yeah, I guess that is sad...no sense of awe, no sense of wonder, just ennui. I'm screwed. :(

Hey Ibram. I agree about the ADD. AADD. AAHDD. Add coca cola and stir.

. . . I said "spirituality" - not "religion"!

There is magic and wonder and awesome-ness (my kid's word) all around us, every day. Just because you've broken down the process doesn't make it any less magical, etc. I can recall sitting in a class for certification as a Hearing Conservationist (occupational health) and we went into minute depth about how the ear developed and then worked. I remember thinking, "this is a truly amazing thing! THIS proves a Creative Intelligence!" and I, knowing this feeling of awe would not last, noted it for the precious moment that it was. Science IS the magic.

Oh, and having dealt with at least three bona-fide antisocial personalities I feel confident in saying that they do exsist. I don't express myself very well, I am usually tongue-tied, esp. on this board because I don't like to confront and argue and I (to my complete undoing) go with my gut far, far too often--but! My gut has served me well--it knows things that I don't. Having said that--I have worked in some pretty horrid circumstances with some pretty horrid people. In my experience not every human is "good". I've seen the BPD, the antisocials, the devious and evil. And not just in passing, but up close, every day for hours and hours. I've been spit at, punched, kicked, taken hostage, etc., all the fun things a psych nurse goes through in the regular course of a day for about three years. I came away from that experience with the very real feeling that there are antisocial (or, whatever the diagnosis is now) people and there is evil.

Just my experience.

*mentally ill does not equal evil or antisocial, lest the more aggressively stick-poke of you want to debate. There is a clear difference between a personality disorder and a mental illness, though it is very often that there is both in one person. Personality disorders can usually be overcome with time and experience (Like BPD--and UNlike antisocial) and mental illness is just that --an illness of the mind. Antisocial is an illness of something I can't quite put my finger on but I suspect it's both bio and spirit-based. {if you dispute that premis, recall that ALL addicts are asked to surrender themselves SPIRITUALLY to find respite from their affliction and if they balk, they are labled 'unwilling' to change!}
And by that I mean that I've never found a chapter of Sober Witches or Pagan's Fighting Alcoholism in Ohio anywhere. 'course, I do live in (the sorta) Bible Belt. I don't blame you personally for this. :)

I like your posts. You don't appear tongue-tied and as far as to "your complete undoing" If I can be bravely undone then so can you.:)

You don't have to confront or argue, just speak of your experiences and the opinion you hold because of them.
That's exactly what you did here. Good post. :thumbsup:

I find the statement 'not magical' muddys the soup. [edit- muddys the water I guess is better :P]


It makes much more sense just to say "yes, it is complex, and we don't fully understand it. So my original point stands, logically - unless a rebuttal to the laws of physics is offered.


What do you define as magical? Card tricks? We are not cave men staring at awe at a lightning struck tree. ,,,,well maybe we do stare in awe but we don't bend down and worship a physical act of nature. Most people understand the diffrerence between physics and supernatural phenmenon. No body thinks that a soldier in war just goes bizerk for no reason. We know he went haywire even if we can't explain it in scientific terms.