We have a mental health care problem with respect to mass shootings. We still do have a gun problem, but those often don't make national news headlines.

Oh just fucking great. Jebus Mudder of Fucking Gob.

Shooting at elementary school in Connecticutt. Multiple injuries to students and multiple deaths reported but unsure if any fatalities are children.

Shooter is dead.

This is breaking news with unclear reports so I'll just leave that post as it is for now. CNN reports no confirmed deaths; MSN is saying multiple deaths.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/14...ool/?hpt=hp_t1

http://news.msn.com/us/shooting-repo...mentary-school

Very confusing information coming in. The multiple deaths link I posted is the only one saying that.

Latest: at least 27 dead, including children.

:sniff:

How the fucking fuck am I not supposed to hate this world? I feel ill. Jesus fucking christ.

Stick your goddam heads in the sand, this isn't really happening in a world of puppies and lollipops.

that's seriously fucked up

Another report says the shooter was a parent of one of the children.

This is unfathomable. I can't even process this in any normal fashion.

LIttle kids. Kids my niece's ages. Kids the ages of some of your kids. These things can't be predicted. How can parents even let their children leave the house in this world? I couldn't do it. When does the call come that one of the schools in my (or your) area has been a target of some psycho freak?

As I said, I can't process this.

Glatt, I'm usually in agreement with you, but with this posting I am not.

I agree that "background checks" are not efficient enough to deal with the problem.
But discussing the "tactics" of which weapon is better or worse just ignores the real problems.

The Supreme Court has, indeed, made a ruling on this, but the gun debate is not over.

I've posted my belief before that eventually the US people will have had enough,
and will place the blame squarely on the NRA and it's supporters who are contributing agents.

Probably not in my lifetime, but eventually this craziness over gun rights will be reversed.
In the meantime, maybe our staunch NRA/gun-rights Dwellars will step up
and rationalize again how the events today in Connecticut are someone else's fault.

Or how if Charlie Smarley, 8 years old, had been allowed to pack heat, there would have been a lot less dead.

NBC is saying 26 dead, including 18 children.

:mecry:

Well, now, they will be screaming again for teachers to be able to carry guns in class. That'll solve it, won't it.

Maybe. I know I'd shape up if I was a student.

incomprehensible.

why can't murder suicides be suicide murders? Or just plain fucking suicides, and stop killing other people for fucking fuck's sake.

People are insane & we as a nation are more & more letting them
"Slip thru the cracks" -- b/ c fixing cracks costs $$$$$$ we are spending elsewhere.-

Just wow...

I understand the shooter shot his father at his home in NJ, then drove to the school in CT where his mother taught. He killed her entire class, apparently kindergarten, then her.

At some point he died also, whether by his own hand or the police, I'm unclear on.

I simply cannot comprehend it. My daughter will get some bear hugs when I see her later tonight.

I pray for the survivors and the parents of those who were so needlessly killed.

His girlfriend is apparently missing and one of his brothers has been found dead as well.

Tragic.

It's like everyone is so desensitized. These were little children. Little tiny children. This, to me, has much the same effect that the Columbine massacre did (you know, before everyone was all like "oh another shooting?") and 9/11 in its 'fucking why' factor.

I just can't get over it. An entire classroom of kids, families who are being notified as I type, finding out your little one was in that room.

Jesus christ it's unbearable. The world should end. I don't want to hear about all the goodness that comes out of such tragedy. I really don't. This is too much for any human with even an ounce of compassion to bear. Or, those with compassion might have to self-preserve and make light of it, remind themselves that it happened somewhere else, tell themselves it's so surreal it's unreal.

I don't think people are desensitized, my facebook feed is nothing but condolences, people questioning why/how this happened, and gun control policy. I have seen maybe one cynical post.

I heard about this on the radio just now. It's the only reason I ventured into this thread.
I'm really sorry to hear about it.
The ages of children at that school are very similar to those at mine.

I can't imagine seeing empty places in the classroom and knowing it was because of an attack like this.

Maybe it's just the people around me.

I don't do FB.

:confused: and to think that if the world had ended on 12/12/12 like it was supposed to, this never would have happened.

Oh whatever. That 12.12.12 thing is as stupid as the Mayan thing. Please dont make light of my emotions in this situation. I just have little faith in humanity at this point...been brewing for a couple days.

Any of y'all who make jokes and want to say 'too soon?' I'll tell you right now ahead of time that fucking yes it's too soon.

I'm considering that the killer may have shared your sentiment, only about something else, and acted on it to end his little corner of the world.

Right, sexo. You're a right class act, you are. And much too clever for my limited sensibilities.

What a noodge.

I wouldn't kill a fly. I would, however, like to present you with a hearty FUCK YOU. Asshole.

How about let's not attack each other.

keep spinning your tale .. get to the part where you imagine his justification for killing the class of kindergartners. I try to stretch my mind around this and it capsizes into some horror movie script.

Or, how about let's not attack each other.

I think that would be nice...but change 'us' to sexobot.

I should've known I would get flamed and insulted for showing real and true emotion. I wasn't arguing about anyone's guns. I was expressing the emotion I feel for this horrible tragedy.

That sexobon thought it would be funny to take one of my typical hyperbolic when upset comments (please to see my 'what is a friend' post and put two and two together) and use it to make fun and demoralize is, really, par for the course...and nothing I need right now.

Jesus. Fuck this.

People who can even think like this should be banned for life from ever owning a gun.

You know what? I don't give a shit about guns or knives or bats. I want these types of killings to stop. I want violence to stop. How do we do that?

I have been greatly disturbed by this incident because they were children and Addie is 5 yoa. The only thing we can do now is believe these innocent lambs are in a better place. At least that is what I keep telling myself......

Gun control probably would not have prevented this. Take away all the guns and then you'll start seeing SVIEDs (suicide vests) or SVBIEDs (suicide vehicle borne improvised explosive device). If a nut job plans on killing a bunch of people, there are a lot better options than a gun. You can do a lot of damage by driving a car or a large truck through a crowd. Should we ban all vehicles because they kill more people than guns every year?

Mental illness is the key. We must do a better job in identifying these people before they can harm themselves or others. In my state, they have been slashing the mental health budget. Most of our regional crisis centers have been closed and even one of the state (mental) hospitals. One last shout from my soap box, I truly feel that violence on TV, graphic video games, etc. have desensitized the younger generations.

Now I will prepare to be stoned for my thoughts.

Last Friday there was a similar incident in China - an effed up individual attacked children at an elementary school.

He didn't have a gun, so he used a knife.

22 children were "slashed" but as far as I can tell, none were killed.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-1...-china/4428958

Such a tragedy. I woke up to this news today and still have been trying to process it. It's almost inconceivable, except it's not. :(

I heartily agree with you there Sarge. Mental health centers/crisis centers are a fucking joke in my state. They are staffed by the most burned out, underpaid, overworked zombies you'd ever care to see. Working with the mentally ill takes a toll on a person and burn out is about five years---similar to ED workers. Add slashed budgets, stale salaries, working thru lunch, holding your bladder b/c you MUST admit one more person before you go; and hostile, over burdened workers who cannot support you emotionally, an indifferent or even evil management "team" (there's usually 5 "managers" and 1 RN for every 7 patients) and insurance co. who don't want to pay a single dollar for mental health care in this country...yeah, a LOT of somebodies slip thru the cracks. All these shooters gave clues to what they were going to do or thinking of doing. Everybody always says the same thing: I thought he was kidding. I was taught that if someone says they are going to kill themselves or another you take them VERY seriously.

I hadn't heard he'd killed one of his brothers..? He has a bro named Ryan who's been constantly interrogated since the shooting but that's all I've heard on the sibling front.

boy had mommy issues------that's pretty clear. I've also heard that he was 20 and then 24. I hope to get some good information today. It's all been so speculative. And those babies who were killed-----IIRC, they are still lying where they were shot as they process the scene. I cannot begin to imagine that.

No it's not. We can

Tell it like it is: The REPUBLICANS

Pass the doobie.

Seriously, what are you willing to sacrifice to ensure that this doesn't happen to Addie?

I guess one question is 'What is the gun designed for?'. Someone with a bolt action rifle is not going to be able to quickly kill two dozen people. What is really needed for hunting, target shooting, home defense? Who uses a 30 round clip to hunt deer?

One problem is the lethality of weapons. If someone wanted to build and own a low yield nuclear device, then told their neighbors that it was perfectly safe and protected by the second amendment, the response would be obvious. Because the lethality of the device directly impacted those neighbors, including the threat of it's misuse. By the same token, a concealed knife or openly worn sword is also lethal, but limited in their ability to inflict mass damage. A semi-automatic firearm, however, is capable of inflicting great harm, even assuming the assailant could be overpowered.

A lot of arguments about the Constitution revolve around the intent of the founding fathers. The personal weapon technology of the time was the flintlock rifle and pistol. Imagine any of the recent mass shootings being committed by someone armed with a flintlock.

Our founding fathers did not have to consider 20th century weapon technology when they considered the 2nd amendment, other than to imply the intent being a well regulated militia. This presumes weapons training and weeding out of unsuitable candidates. Show them a clip of the fire rate of a semiautomatic pistol and those requirements would have been a lot tighter and more explicit.

Switzerland allows honorably discharged veterans to retain carry permits for weapons. You don't see many mass murders in Switzerland. Of course American culture is considered to be too violent by most industrialized nations.

This may ruffle some feathers but if gun policy is going to be discussed, I think it is extremely important that we look at the issue from multiple perspectives. It does the country harm if the narrative is controlled by people who only look at the issue as black in white.

The truth is, a gun saturated population can prevent crime and murder along with increasing crime and murder at the same time. It largely depends on the decisions made by the person holding the weapon, which varies greatly culture to culture, person to person, and even at different times with the same person.

Jeffrey Goldberg recently wrote an article in the Atlantic about how we need more gun regulation while not preventing responsible gun owners from possessing guns. I don't agree with everything but the pragmatic viewpoint is refreshing. Here is his response to the massacre in Newton along with a link to the article.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...sacres/266300/


Full article:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...ontrol/309161/

Was that a typo? :eyebrow:

Yes. Yes it was. Thank you.

:lol: I would have overlooked a normal typo but that one had a big impact on what you were trying to say. ;)

Our Constitutional Rights are sacred. Think how many have fought and died for these rights. I'm willing to keep our right to bear arms, even if it did endanger my precious angel. We need to start putting our country and constitution first. To be a free country, you often have to pay a price

I think gun ownership should be more difficult to achieve. Not impossible, except for automatic/semi-automatic weapons, just more carefully controlled. I think a permit and complete background checks should be required of all permit holders. It should be revoked in the event of domestic violence, mental illness, or any felony crime. If accused of a crime, all guns should be confiscated, to be returned if found not guilty/charges dropped. It should be required that all weapons be secured and accessible only to the permit holder(s).

If you fuck up, you lose your guns.

We lose our jobs, cars, drivers licenses, children and spouses for fucking up, we should also lose our guns.

And mental illness should be an automatic block to owning a weapon. Sorry if that feels too harsh, but shit..you can't be a police officer or judge or teacher or daycare provider if you have a documented mental illness, and you should not be allowed contact with a gun either.

The permit should be required to be renewed periodically, and another full background check (including mental health records) should be done. A registry of all licensed gun owners and the weapons registered to them would be kept. Longer sentences for illegally possessing a weapon should occur.

I say this as a gun owner, and one whose (adult) son has a concealed permit and is an active enthusiast. I have nothing against guns, but they are too easy to get and their possession is too unregulated. We pay less attention to guns than we do to cars!!

f you are a responsible adult, you should have no problem obtaining a permit and retaining it any more than you would a driver's license.

That, folks, is the difference between the shepherd and the sheep.

Psshh....read what I mean...not what I type. :cool:

the constitution has been wrong before, you know. thats why we've had to amend it 27 times.

Personally, living in gun-crazy Vermont, I can say that... this doesn't really happen up here. There are the horror stories of 14-year-olds using their own personal shotguns to blow away mommy's new boyfriend (well, actually, in the case I'm referring to, the mother was either bipolar or schizophrenic, and was off her meds, and therefore was beyond being able to consent, so it was rape, and I think the kid shouldn't've been charged for warning his mother's rapist to leave, and then firing in self-defense when the rapist attacked him for the gun...), and plenty of hunting accidents, but for the most part, there are very few murders here (11 last year), and guns aren't actually used in at least half of them. There's also very little armed robbery and such.
And yet I could buy a semi-auto AK47 or AR15 today. With no planning. The background check takes five minutes. If I have enough money in my bank account I could have a semi-auto rifle with a 100-round mag by tonight. (well, i dunno if they're open weekends, but you get my point). If I were some sick fuck who wanted to mow down a crowd, i'd absolutely have more bullets than targets anywhere I could GO in Vermont, basically. Maybe the mall has a hundred or so people at any given time but its a long, thin mall with lots of exits.

Clearly, gun control laws aren't the only factor in gun crime and mass killings. But they could make it more difficult. I think it'd be perfectly reasonable to make owning a gun more difficult, paperwork-ed, and bureaucratic than owning a car. licensing, screening, basic training and certification, periodic inspection? Sounds cool to me. Surely it's worth mildly inconveniencing legal owners of guns, to help ensure that at least the most obviously unfit are weeded out?

I'd love to live in a free country.

Attachment 42152

Gender Identity disorder is still technically recognized in the DSM. Should trans* people not be allowed to own guns?
So is ADHD, and depression, and generalized anxiety disorder. Should they not be allowed to own guns?
So is obsessive-compulsive disorder. Should they not be allowed to own guns?
So is bipolar disorder. Should they not be allowed to own guns?
So is borderline personality disorder. Should they not be allowed to own guns?
So is sadistic paranoid schizophrenia. Should they not be allowed to own guns?

"mental illness" is far too broad an umbrella, unfortunately. Obviously psychopaths, sadistic schizophrenics, etc shouldn't have guns. but where do you draw the line?

I'd be much more interested in screening for violent factors like history of verbal/emotional abuse (even if not physical), racism/hate, gang/criminal affiliation, history of alcohol abuse, etc.

Actually, the new DSM-V just came out a month ago, and one of the big changes is there isn't a "gender identity disorder" anymore, because they wanted to get away from the idea that it was a "disorder." Now it's "gender dysphoria." (I'm up to date on the changes, by the way, because there's also no such thing as Asperger's or PDD-NOS anymore, it's all just "autism spectrum disorder." )

But to be blunt, yes, I think everything you listed should be at least a temporary barrier to owning a gun. Even ADHD. Because all mental illnesses are subjective to a large degree--one doc says you have adult ADHD, another says you're bipolar... All of the above should warrant a second or even third evaluation, when it comes to the question of gun ownership.

I don't think that anyone who believes that their guns are more important to them than their children should be allowed to have a gun (or children).

sheep-dip

I agree with you regarding focus on Mental Health Resources. Crimes like this have happened in countries with strict gun control laws e.g. UK

I disagree that the USA is a "free country". or at least any more free that a plethora of other countries. Ones which do have gun control among other things. And odn't necessarily have a "constitution" that is help up as sacred.

Just saying something doesn't make it so. Just because something was written on a bit of parchment eons ago doesn't make it sacred.

How many parents feel free of fear, right now, for example? And a little regulation wouldn't strip your law-abiding sane citizen of their right to own guns -just maybe a few more nutters. What is so wrong with the idea of "Gun Owners Ed" with a mental evaluation being part of the process? Shame mental evaluation isn't part of Driver's Ed.....

No matter what, though, you can't stop a nutter who is prepared to die. I am so saddened by this incident and yet, I feel I need not to feel. You can't wrap them in cotton wool and keep them at home. Or they turn into nutters. Sometimes.

shutting up

Yes.

Griff, you didn't need to edit your post. You're a citizen. Big Sarge is a citizen-soldier. Perhaps he's noticed some things that you missed. I'm sure he would have taken that into consideration. Thank you for your input, it was weighted accordingly even before it was withdrawn.

Whats the difference, these are semiautos...
http://cellar.org/2012/rifles.jpg
Other than the badass appearance of the first two they are the same, work the same, do the same. Full autos are illegal without difficult and expensive federal machine gun permitting. Some semiautos, other than the badass guns, use a detachable magazine too.

Semiautos allow you to make the second or third shot quickly and smoothly. It's not a case of you missed the first shot so no meat for you. It's you hit your first shot and if you don't make the second, the animal will escape wounded and suffering.
Permit for each gun, like license plates, or permit for each person like a drivers license?

The main difference is that I only own the last one. And it has the 19 round mag, pre-ban.

Ft3, you'll be sure to tell us if you start giving away your possessions, won't you ?