For parties that are not in power, internecine fights over who is the more principled is about all they have to do. Parties in power actually having a responsibility to craft wise and functional policy don't have the time for it. An out of power party might do better if it didn't waste any energy over who's purer than whom and simply set out to attain office instead.

That is even more true of Bush.That is what should chill the heart of any libertarian. Bush is claiming that "war powers" justifies anything he wants to do.

But don't ya see man? YOU think that because of where you stand. YOU think that because YOU are inside a school of thought where Bush lies, is evil, scarfing up power, etc.

Clinton made exactly the same claim, except it wasn't in wartime!

The feared XO, Executive Order. I remember it. Man was I scared. But I got a dog, and it's better now.

Um, that's Drudge, you know. Neither Clinton nor Carter's orders included American citizens. To use either order, the Attorney General had to certify that it wasn't likely that American people or property would be involved.

Not that I'm particularly happy with that either, but I never said Clinton was libertarian, just that Bush makes him look like one.

Fine, let's look at the act directly instead of filtering it through Drudge.

If the Bush administration had said that

the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section

and then said that the people who could "make the certifications" included

Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, Director of Central Intelligence, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Deputy Secretary of State, Deputy Secretary of Defense, and Deputy Director of Central Intelligence

...would or would you not shit yourself? Be honest.

No, the Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, Director of Central Intelligence, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Deputy Secretary of State, Deputy Secretary of Defense, and Deputy Director of Central Intelligence under Clinton were all honorable, upright patriots. :blush:

What UT forgets to mention is that such wiretaps of government employees in his position are legal- due to conditions Ames accepts as part of his employment. Is that Drudge Report a subsidiary of Rush Limbaugh Inc? Why do they also forget such details?

From The Washington Post of 2 Jan 2006: The country must import its oil. Iraq produces less electricity than when Saddam was in power even after America spent $2billion just on the electricity grid alone.

Some years ago, the US invited other nations to a conference for rebuilding of a 'just conquered' Iraq. European nations were stunned. US insisted the world contribute more money to Iraq than what is provided to all of Africa. $20 billion. So how much did American spend on Iraq? Almost $20 billion. And still Iraq - an oil rich nation - needs $tens of billions more.

More insteresting is where much of that money ended up. A 300 man task force that goes out most every night to rescue kidnap victims in Baghdad alone. But Iraq is safer? George Jr tells us so.

How much did the US spend to liberate Kuwait? Almost nothing. Brunt of that justified war was paid for by other nations. Remember that when a recession years from now, created by massive and uncontrolled US government spending, occurs. George Sr was so responsible as to have the world to pay for a justified war. George Jr was so irresponsible as to Pearl Harbor a sovereign nation for nothing more than his greater glory and his political agenda.

Pay we must - and somehow we like it. $200,000 per annum for each private guard (Blackwater) in Iraq. Good thing we have the Chinese to buy up America - just as America once did for Europe in the early 1900s when Europe saw war and military conquests as a justified solution to national interests.

But that's not a part of the executive order.

Bush supporters need bigger dogs to protect them from the evil ones so we don't have to give up on an open society.

The problem as I see it is that we have two booster clubs willing to grant any powers necessary to their own side without realizing that the other team will always take that power and try to push it to the next level. To bring in that other thread, when you excuse Clinton's use of the ATF you are pimping for Bush.

Maybe, maybe. But Bush didn't have to, did he? He could have left that one in place, or reissued it, couldn't he? But no, he thought that that was too restrictive. Here's what his powers were when he came in:

1) Wiretap anyone with a court order.
2) If the courts are balking, get a FISA court order, which has never denied a request.
3) If you can't wait for a court order, you can get it up to 72 hours after starting surveilance.
4) If the Attorney General certifies that all parties are not US people, no warrant is needed.

He came in there, looked at those powers, and said they were not enough. He needed completely unchecked surveilance power over everyone, US or not.

I never said Clinton was libertarian, just that Bush makes him look like one.

These members of the executive branch surrender their right of privacy as part of the job. That does not mean they can be wiretapped at any time. I never fully understood the legalities. But it does permit an executive order to authorize that wiretap of Ames. A president has no right to wiretap ordinary citizens using executive order. A president must get permission from the courts. Otherwise Nixon's bugging of Watergate could have been completely legal.

A president cannot authorize domestic wiretapping without judicial approval. Nixon got (he claimed) authority from British common law where the king was above the law. Apparently George Jr gets his authority from god - because the Constitution does not give him such powers.

Meanwhile, Rush Limbaugh says otherwise. Rush Limbaugh - who gets White House talking points - says you have no expectation of privacy. George Jr, through his propaganda machine Limbaugh, says he has power to wiretap anyone he wants. Apparently from the same powers that permit him to torture as he sees fit and that told him to invade Iraq.

The XO says nothing about whether someone is in the executive branch or not.

George Jr's Executive Order (XO) was issued using a reasoning that George Jr can wiretap anyone, without Judicial approval, if George Jr believes that person is a national threat. So if that person is working for impeachment of this corrupt president, then George Jr can now wiretap that person as a threat to national security.

Nixon used that same reasoning. No other president found such reasoning to be legal. And yet Rush Limbaugh says you have no right to privacy. Rush Limbaugh, as the administration's defacto spokesman, tells the naive among us that this president can wiretap anyone without Judicial review. No other president, except Nixon, was so corrupt.

We sents Humvees mostly without armor. It took a soldier about one year later to literally ask Sec of Defense Rumsfeld - live and face to face - why American soldiers had insufficient armor. Then an Ohio company who makes that armour said they could more than double production - but Rumsfeld never asked. Extremists politicians declared "Mission Accomplished" - outrightly denied an insurgency - invented lies about Al Qaeda. Why provide armour for a problem that does not exist - according to extremist rhetoric? Same rhetoric that also left bin Laden to run free.

From the NY Times of 6 Jan 2006 that was leaked because this president only cares about his own popularity - like Nixon - at the expense of American troops: Had Rumsfeld et al acknowledged what their own studies said (and instead not have fired all those researchers all before the war started), then troops would have been provided with armoured HumVees and sufficient armored vests. Problems like this are directly traceable to an administration full of paper soldiers (including an AWOL president). But like MBAs and lawyers, these extremist politicans know they must be right. This same adminstration even called Rep Murtha a coward because Murtha told a correct and honest fact. Just like Nixon who sent 35,000 good Americans to their death knowing that war could not be won. Blame the troops for their own death? Why not if that will protect the president's popularity ratings. Same reasonings used by Nixon during his unjustified war.

An important phrase in that report: