</cloaking device>

Gad, don't people read anymore? The Supreme Court decided this one waaaay back in 1927. As far as I know, <i>Buck v. Bell <a href="http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=274&invol=200">(274 US 200)</a></i> has never been <i>explicitly</i> overturned.

Even today, after almost 80 years the simple, eloquent words of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes ring true:
<blockquote>"It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes. Three generations of imbeciles are enough."</blockquote>

<i>*sniffle*</i> They just don't write 'em like that anymore, eh? Brings a tear to my eye...

&lt;cloaking device&gt;

Who said anything about property? I am talking about responsibility. In the event a parent abdicates responsibility for their child that child can either a) be left to their own devices or b) become the responsibility of the society they were born into. If it's a) well that's just fine, maybe we let em beg on the streets calcutta style if its b) then society ( the State) should take that responsibilty seriously.

Personally I think we are all responsible for the children born into our society;not to remove any of the rights of the parents, I am not in favour of heavy handed state intervention where it is at all possible for children to be raised without it.

If the state refuses to accept responsibilty for the children who are born into it then it stands to reason not all of those children will have the chances/opportunities for happiness and success that their more loved and wanted counterparts might have.

If we are talking about children whose parents refuse/ or are unable to care for them then I see the State and it's responsibilities as an empowering thing for society. I say this as someone who has never had a child. I would gladly pay higher taxes in order to ensure that each child in my community was given the best possible chance in life. There is no need in countries with our wealth for children *not* to have those chances/opportunities. None whatsoever.

Just out of curiousity.... are you suggesting that happiness and success are rights, and that The State is obliged to provide them?

Goodness. "Heavy handed state intervention" indeed.

Nope. I just think that we all have a duty of care towards our younger citizens. In fact I think we have a duty of care towards all our citizens. Takes a village and all that:P
There are plenty of nations in this world which dont consider they have a duty of care towards their children. You can usually tell which ones by the beggars in town and the streams of kids withtheir hands out as the trains pull into the station.

Personally, I think you're full of shit. You want kids? Fine, I even pay, through the nose, for their schools, recreation facilities and a host of other crap. But, I'll be damned if I'm taking responsibility for the care of the little bastards. Goddamned armchair philosophers love to tell me what I have to do, when they've never done a productive thing in their lives.

That's a pretty shitty attitude. Why do you think this country has gone so damned PC these days? Because dirty ol' men like you have started keeping to themselves!

Dirty old men like me have started keeping to ourselves because this country has become so goddamned pussified, or PC as you call it.:mad:

So...what the hell are you gonna do about it? You gonna run home with your tail between your legs, or are you gonna fight it?

Actually no, I dont want kids. I still feel it behooves us well to take responsibility for children at a societal level

Bullshit, that's just one more excuse for parents to shirk THEIR responsibility. Hopefully kids that are not cared for properly will kill their parents and Sidhe will execute them. That way I'll be rid of all of them.:p

I've been fighting it since long before you were born. It's your turn to fight it, I'm tired.:zzz:

And boy does it show.

I fight it every day...after all, one of us liberals has to be reasonable.

Hey succah, who you calling a liberal?:boxers:

Certainly not you.

Here we are, at almost opposite ends of the spectrum, but we have something in common. We're both on a non-porn website, on a Saturday night.:beer: