The Cellar - Vaccination & epidemic

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- - Vaccination & epidemic (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=20308)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 880866)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexobon (Post 880850)

Childhood Pertussis vaccination doesn't begin until 2 months of age; so, you can eliminate the <3 mos. category (13 deaths) as having been influenced by anyone's anti-childhood vaccination rhetoric. The information you provided here doesn't say whether or not they where vaccinated either, as vaccinations is not 100% effective. ...

Described are more examples of why medicine recommends all kids be vaccinated. Even infants who cannot yet be vaccinated are at significantly greater risk due to others who deny their responsibility to society. That 'screw everyone else' attitude exists. ...

The mothers can be vaccinated shortly before giving birth to help protect infants <2 mo.

Just to clarify, while that is true of the DTaP vaccine it is not true of the MMR or any other live attenuated virus vaccines. (I know tw was referring to your quote about pertussis; just didn't want people to incorrectly suppose that all vaccines can be given shortly before birth to protect a young infant.)

[Quote/] The responses to Clod's question were evasive, misleading, and not by accident. The assessment is logical and accurate. With friends like that, the cause doesn't need enemies.[/quote]
Precisely. throne. Of lies.

Still, I'll trade you tw for Jenny

Maybe tw and Jenny can do a porn flick together. Think what it would do for world harmony.

Oh, thanks for taking the time to answer my question, Ortho.

The hepatitis vaccines make sense to me. As I recall, jinx was very against Gardisil. ... I don't really remember the issues she has with it. I think she and merc went a few rounds on here about it somewhere.

I'm on the fence about chicken pox, mostly because they never got the disease as kids.

When the divorce is final, she will have custody, so I'm not sure what say I will have in the matter. .. plus she still won't speak to me about anything other than the kids schedule, so having a rational discussion about it is highly unlikely. I won't be taking anyone to court over this either, so it may come down to the kids dealing with this decision once they are adults.

I'm going to talk to them about it soon though, and take their temperature on the issue. I don't know what their mother has told them about it all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexobon (Post 880888)

I'm all for childhood vaccinations...

Me too... stab all the children, shoot 'em too. :p:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexobon (Post 880888)

...You drew that erroneous conclusion; because, you forgot to first ask (which you do a lot) which camp I fall into....

The "blame the reader" tactic when found wanting is called obscurantisme terroriste,
as in ... you misunderstood me/my... it's your fault you forgot to ask ... etc.

If it's important to know your position, put it in your posts.
For me, it's a minor issue which camp you're in.

The "spin doctoring" and "propagandize" and now with:
"With friends like that, the cause doesn't need enemies."
These are your emotional word usages, not mine or TW's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexobon (Post 880888)

Clod identified his evasiveness and gave him a chance to redress her question:

Was answered. Actual numbers are complicated by factors such as some vaccines are not 100% effective and recent discoveries that some vaccines might be losing effectiveness. Apparently uncertainty exists. Lamplighter's numbers confirm that bottom line. Numbers so one sided as to be obvious. To not vaccinate was irresponsible (ill informed) reasoning. To be angry and offensive because those mistakes were exposed is simply an adult acting like a child. His tirade (and not one fact) confirms even he knows it.

Assumed was that mothers will always nurse their children. Protection does not transfer when mothers do not nurse.

shut up, tw.

you ignore the numbers i posted. then you lie about my refusing to post them, go read back. i said it. zero deaths from measles in 1998. 60+ mmr vaccine related deaths. see below for current year info. only numbers that really mattered to me at the time. jenny mccarthy did not provide them either. your mom did.

anyway... here's some stuff I found today while bored at work:

cases (not deaths, were there any deaths??) of measles recorded in the US by year:

In 2007 there were 43 cases reported nationwide
In 2008 there were 140 cases
In 2009 there were 71 cases
In 2010 there were 63 cases
In 2011 there were 217 cases
In 2012 through Feb. 18, 2012 there were 13

check this out. it's a big chart so I took a screen shot and linked it.
Attachment 45723

I can't find YTD figures for deaths in the US from Measles Mumps or Rubella, but I did find that link above. I don't know if that's because no one in the US actually dies from any of those???

Am I reading that chart right though?

did 57 people DIE from the MMR vaccine this year?

and 696!!! from the DTP(diphtheria-tetanus-whole cell pertussis) vaccine? was there a bad batch?

what the hell?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamplighter (Post 880900)

... The "spin doctoring" and "propagandize" and now with: "With friends like that, the cause doesn't need enemies." ...

I'm glad you can see your propaganda is transparent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 880901)

Was answered. ...

Insufficiently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 880901)

... Assumed was that mothers will always nurse their children. Protection does not transfer when mothers do not nurse.

I didn't say mothers will nurse. I didn't even say mothers will get vaccinated. I said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexobon (Post 880889)

The mothers can be vaccinated...

Reading comprehension tw (or maybe that was just more spin doctoring).

Well i learned something today. So thanks for that.

Quote:

Am I reading that chart right though?

did 57 people DIE from the MMR vaccine this year?

and 696!!! from the DTP(diphtheria-tetanus-whole cell pertussis) vaccine? was there a bad batch?

what the hell?

LJ, if you go back to the link that you posted, and scroll down
below your chart there is an explanation (definition) of settlements, etc.
By no means is the data saying so many people died from MMR.
It's just how many suits were filed and how many were compensated with $.

The Vaccine Injury Table is linked here

But they list deaths. ... so you're saying that the vaccine company just settled and it doesn't necessarily prove that child was killed by the vaccine? But somebody did die? 646 sets of parents believed that the DPT vaccine killed their kids.... and strongly enough to file a suit? And that is just year to date...

I would think that would have made news? I admit I do not follow it.... what was the situation there? Is that normal? Maybe 0 of the 646 cases here have actually been proven to be caused by the DPT vaccine... This is just 646 Jenny McCarthys?

I'm actually asking that question. Not being shitty at all. Are they just 646 cases of people trying to get paid when their kid died? Like a class action suit or something? so that stat its padded.... one big case with the 646 parties on the plaintiff's side?

LJ, I am reading the chart for DPT as a total of 3980 suits made up of both Injury and Death classes.
The 1269 "compensated" suits does not distinguish between these two classes.
And I don't think the injury/death class data can be determined from your link.

For example, from The Injury Table, one "compensated injury" for DPT is deemed to be:

Quote:

... Any acute complication or sequela (including death) of an illness,
disability, injury, or condition referred to above which illness, disability, injury,
or condition arose within the time period

While one may believe such an injury or death is caused by the DPT,
it may have been only coincidentally associated at the time with the DPT.
Whatever actually caused the injury or death is not determined by the settlement or award.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamplighter (Post 880925)

... Whatever actually caused the injury or death is not determined by the settlement or award.

I got the impression that it can be determined by compensation. Compensation does not always mean causation (e.g. settlements); but, it can.

Quote:

DEFINITIONS:

1. Compensable – The injured person who filed a claim was paid money by the VICP. Compensation can be achieved through a concession by the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), a decision on the merits of the claim by a special master or a judge of the United States Court of Federal Claims (Court), or a settlement between the parties.

...1. Concession: HHS concludes that a petition should be compensated based on a thorough review and analysis of the evidence, including medical records and the scientific and medical literature. The HHS review concludes that the petitioner is entitled to compensation, including a determination either that it is more likely than not that the vaccine caused the injury or the evidence supports fulfillment of the criteria of the Vaccine Injury Table. The Court also determines that the petition should be compensated.

...2. Court Decision: A special master or the court, within the United States Court of Federal Claims, issues a legal decision after weighing the evidence presented by both sides. HHS abides by the ultimate Court decision even if it maintains its position that the petitioner was not entitled to compensation (e.g., that the injury was not caused by the vaccine).

......1. For injury claims, compensable court decisions are based in part on one of the following determinations by the court:

.........1. The evidence is legally sufficient to show that the vaccine more likely than not caused (or significantly aggravated) the injury; or

.........2. The injury is Iisted on, and meets all of the requirements of, the Vaccine Injury Table, and HHS has not proven that a factor unrelated to the vaccine more likely than not caused or significantly aggravated the injury. An injury listed on the Table and meeting all Table requirements is given the legal presumption of causation. It should be noted that conditions are placed on the Table for both scientific and policy reasons.

3. Settlement: The petition is resolved via a negotiated settlement between the parties. This settlement is not an admission by the United States or the Secretary of Health and Human Services that the vaccine caused the petitioner’s alleged injuries, and, in settled cases, the Court does not determine that the vaccine caused the injury. A settlement therefore cannot be characterized as a decision by HHS or by the Court that the vaccine caused an injury. Claims may be resolved by settlement for many reasons, including consideration of prior court decisions; a recognition by both parties that there is a risk of loss in proceeding to a decision by the Court making the certainty of settlement more desirable; a desire by both parties to minimize the time and expense associated with litigating a case to conclusion; and a desire by both parties to resolve a case quickly and efficiently.

Non-compensable/Dismissed doesn't necessarily mean there was no causation.

Quote:

1. Non-compensable/Dismissed – The injured person who filed a claim was ultimately not paid money.

...1. Non-compensable Court decisions include the following:

......1. The Court determines that the person who filed the claim did not demonstrate that the injury was caused (or significantly aggravated) by a covered vaccine or meet the requirements of the Table (for injuries listed on the Table).

......2. The claim was dismissed for not meeting other statutory requirements (such as not meeting the filing deadline, not receiving a covered vaccine, and not meeting the statute’s severity requirement).

......3.The injured person voluntarily withdrew his or her claim