Clearly the only real option is to set up re-education camps where fascist sympathisers like m'self and the good lady sugarpop can learn the true meaning of freedom.

So the whole torture thing is "punishment"?

Ha, ha, ha.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/cap...riefed_on.html

I have no cites, but the new last night said that multiple documents recently released corroborate that.

In typical political fashion she will simply wait a while to let it blow over and/or until something else grabs a headline and the attention of the people and all will be right back to normal. The fact that she is a bold faced liar, just like most of them, will soon be forgotten... business as usual.

This would be the only right thing to do.

continues:

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/...009-05-08.html

Now that'd be interesting.

Yep, thats the kind of transparency we should have.

So prosecute her, too.

Clean sweep. Investigate the hell out of it, and start tossing the bastards in prison.

In this case yes. Expose her duplicity.

In this case? Oh, sorry, I forgot. She's a democrat.

Seems nobody's hands are clean on this.

This may be why nobody is really pushing for hearings or for an independent investigation. I believe there should be a very THOROUGH investigation, and let the chips fall where they may. People should go to jail for this, but so far, the only people to have been punished are GRUNTS way down on the totum pole.

There is a very serious divide in how people at the top and people in the middle and at the bottom are treated with regard to wrongdoing. We always say we are a nation of laws, but when people in power or people with money get caught, nothing ever happens to them, or if it does, it is the exception rather than the rule. We really need to END that practice. We are not a nation of laws if the people who truly need to be punished never are. And laws were very clearly broken here. I want Cheney to go to jail. He's all over TV blackmouthing Obama. Let's get him first. I am fairly convinced he ran the whole thing anyway.

People are not pushing for an independent investigation because they understand that procedures were followed and that the torture memos are evidence thereof. They were asking the department whose job it would be to investigate, comprehend?

Me: Hey, Mr. police officer. That STOP sign is bent over and has been for two years. It looks like somebody decided it wasn't valid... they haven't replaced it.

Policeman: It sure does.

Me: So look, because the sign is broken, I'm just going to go through this intersection without stopping, OK?

Policeman: Yes. I've looked in the county records and there is no legal STOP sign at this intersection. You may definitely go through this intersection without stopping.

Me: (goes through intersection)

Policeman: You are under arrest.

Me: What?? But I went through a procedure where I asked you specifically about this sign!

Policeman: The fact that you asked is proof of your guilt. Also, sugarpop is "fairly convinced" you're guilty. Fairly is good enough for me. Off we go.

So, Undertoad, you're saying that an investigation is the same thing as arresting people without an investigation???

TGRR,
Isn't sure what you're getting at.

Try harder man. It's not that difficult.

Duplicity? Wacko nonsense that only a George Jr lover would post. Once the briefing was 'classified' she could say nothing.

In order to hide torture, torture was classified. Not because it was secret. Classified so that they could continue to lie to Americans. Lying – which is routine from wacko extremists who also love torture. Anyone briefed about American torture (that George Jr said does not exist) could not discuss it or challenge it.

Wackos who love torture forget to mention all facts. Briefings were classified so that nobody could talk about it or could challenge it. Then wackos accuse Pelosi of doing what everyone who knew she had to do. How convenient. Wackos again forget to mention all facts.

Half facts - another way that wacko extremists routinely pervert reality. No wonder Colin Powell is a flaming liberal.

Arrest the police officer.

Why? For what?

Okay, never mind. I thought you were seriously debating. My bad.

Yes, at my house... with lots of naked calisthenics.:right:

you're a bad man Bruce.....but I like it

In order to get to bottom of this and find out what truly happened and how it happened, we need an independent investigator, someone who is truly unbiased but who understands the rules and laws that were broken. We need to know if there was conspiracy, how far up or down the chain it went, and who all knew about it. Who ordered it. We broke laws, and someone needs to pay for it. I think it should be Cheney, and perhaps Rumsfeld, and the lawyers who twisted the law to fit what they wanted.

We also need an investigation into the financial markets. We need another Pecaro Investigation so we can get to the bottom of that as well, because if we don't, nothing will get done in regulating these institutions and taking apart the ones that are too big to fail, because we can't have that anymore.

entrapment.

And if Pelosi covered up her complacency and approval.

Hell yeah. This whole thing is Pelosi's fault. First against the wall, that's what i say. There surely can't be anyone else more heavily implicated or worthy of anger.

Forgot your /sarc tag.

You can't hang one group and not hang the others involved.

Then it should be the DoJ lawyers who are prosecuted.

I don't use /sarc tags...I rely on context :P

And anyone else involved in approving it.

FTFY, the law is a messy business.

On related news this was interesting. This site has some great posts.

http://www.fas.org/blog/secrecy/2009...ensorship.html

I'm not particularly clear on how someone is "entrapped" into constructing legal loopholes in the torture prohibition. These are the guys who were bending over that stop sign and making sure it stayed that way for two years.

How could she possibly have covered it up? Really?

And I have no problem with that. However, I believe it goes much further up the chain of command. I think Cheney is ultimately the one who orchestrated the whole thing.

When classicman asked why you said to arrest police officer, I said entrapment. What would have been your reason for arresting them?

I don't see how the whole analogy fit to the problem at hand anyway. If the police officer is supposed to represent the lawyers who constructed the documents legalizing torture, then I don't know what the charge would be. I think torture is pretty clearly defined by international law and also military law. They tried to rewrite it, and they did a pretty poor job of it IMO. One could argue collusion to commit harm or something, or perhaps conspiracy. I don't know. I'm not a lawyer.

UT said the cop was entrapped.

And I agree, the analogy is a bit tortured (get it?) when it equates torture with running a stop sign. More- with running a stop sign that isn't clearly marked. There's not much that is more clearly illegal than torture. I don't think the torturers should be exonerated. At the very least, they should have to plea bargain by testifying about their superiors.

I do have some grudging sympathy for the actual torturers, though. The classic Stanford Prison and Milgram experiments show how otherwise ethical people can be influenced into doing awful things when an authority gives them permission. That excuse, however, thins out the higher you get to the top.

Milgram is no excuse. I'm sorry, but it's not. When you're given an illegal order, you are legally bound NOT to follow it. If you DO break the law and follow the illegal order, that is on YOU. But I agree that more blame lies at the top than the bottom.

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/...050100328.html

http://cellar.org/2009/bangmisuntorture.jpg

There were gasps in the audience at a press conference by female North Korean defectors in Washington, D.C. on Wednesday when Bang Mi-sun rolled up her black skirt and showed the deep ugly scars in her thighs. The event was part of North Korea Freedom Week.

As soon as she was asked to recount her life in a North Korean concentration camp, Bang (55) stepped on a chair and roll up her skirt. Various parts of her thighs were sunken as if the flesh had been gouged out. She also walks with a limp.

Bang had formerly been an actress with the propaganda squad of the Musan Mine. She fled the North with her children when her husband starved to death in 2002, but soon fell victim to human traffickers. She was arrested by Chinese police and was sent back to the North, where she was tortured. In 2004, she escaped again.

Bang testified that one 21-year-old pregnant woman who had fled to China and been forcibly repatriated was killed when she refused to have an abortion. Forced abortions of half-Chinese children apparently aim to prevent the proliferation of "unclean" stock due to the North's archaic obsession with the national bloodline.

She called on U.S. President Barack Obama to make sure no more North Korean women are "sold like livestock in China. Please raise your voice in the international community so that North Koreans no longer receive this subhuman treatment in prison."

Wow - thats awful.

Agreed. Excuse was the wrong word.

I don't see where he said that, but no big deal.

And yea, there is evidence that otherwise good and ethical people will resort to the worst kind of human behavior under certain circumstances. Like Lord of the Flies. Everyone isn't influenced though. Some people are strong enough to withstand mob rule or hive mentality.

classic, there is now evidence that they were torturing people to try and make a connection between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussien. Which they never got btw.

Post 329, he modified my quote.

That was old news a month ago, but thanks for the update. It also has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Seems Sergeant South was correct. :haha:

That is frigging hairlarrious. Mancow was in the idiot category of, "wish I would have just gone to breakfast."

Wheeeeee the wheel goes around again

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...T2009082804015

Would that be a catherine wheel?

Excellent article UT- very interesting read. I need to digest it a bit more...

I was wondering why you were bringing up fireworks in this thread, but wiki provided the answer.

I wouldn't have had any reference for Catherine wheel at all if it weren't for the Moody Blues Eternity Road.

*grins* what can I say. I have a bleak sense of humour.

Oh good god damn.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...rding?page=0,0

RebuttalFor each genius who says no another says yes.

The last part from LO123's link

What I hear: "The end justifies the means."

And I still don't believe it.

As far as I recall, beyond the legal questions, the CIA IGs report raised questions about the effectiveness of torture

But you can read it for yourself.


IMO. the ends dont justifty the means....we are a nation of laws...or we are no better than the enemy.

If you I am causing you discomfort and you believe I may escalate that into the downright painful and possibly lethal, do you think you would be more or less likely to answer my questions?

But its no good if the person just doesn't have any information to give. Of course, then, they will make it up to survive. I wonder how many people we tortured who were in that category? How often did we really get the right people to torture?

<sarcasm>shoving hot needles under their fingernails would probably also work. Or we could use an iron maiden. That would please the heavy metal folks.</>

The results don't matter if the methods are reprehensible.

What is acceptable, Pete? - seriously.