This is exactly what happens when America did not do nation building in 2002. And then virtually surrendered to the Taliban in 2003. We still don't know by how much we were defeated because of that blunder. The same blunder by the same people in 1991 - Desert Storm. And the same blunder committed by the same people in 2003 when Baghdad fell in Mission Accomplished. When even the Iraqi national museum was ransacked because they did not plan for the peace. So uneducated as to insist that America must not do nation building. All but protected bin Laden.

This is their legacy we must live with, And pay for. The current recession is a $1 trillion debt we are just beginning to pay - Mission Accomplished. At least another $2 trillion in debts yet to be realized. It does not include the bills for Afghanistan. And the $billlions given to Pakistan so that our Army is not trapped in Afghanistan (think Stalingrad or Syracuse).

No. This happened when we tried to give a country ruled by religious zealots democracy. They couldn't handle it.

You mean god cannot teach his followers democracy? Well he sure is good at teaching pedophilia. Why is teaching democracy harder?

IMHO, Afghanstan was never rebuildable as a modern democratic nation.

Democracy is hard to teach becaues it requires patience, self-control and accepting that you don't always get what you want, even though you could just do what you always did and go out with some guns and take it. The fruits come slowly.

Like I keep telling you, we need to mumblemumblemuble immediately!

Nope, some people are just too ignorant.

well said. They have to be able to grasp the concept. They are generations deep in ignorance and despair, without basic needs nor education and beaten down by decades ... err ... centuries of dictatorships.

Actually, I was thinking, the problem is that they've had a variety of incompetant govenrments, periods of anarchy and civil war, and occasional religious nutter dictatorships. What they need is a century of a single, solid dictatorship (such as India had under British Colonial rule) to get them used to the idea of obeying the government. Said dictatorship would foster education and gradually - over a few generations - introduce democracy.

You Yanks would be happy to supply 50,000 troops for 50 years and another few trillion bucks to pay for it all, wouldn't you? :right: We'll send a few guys with a flag and a sharpened boomerang.

Ha!

Oh I've heard these things can be done "on the cheap"... :D

Rumsfeld is long gone.

Afghanistan (and Pakistan to a lesser extent) has never had a true central government. Rural regions are mostly on their own - autonomous regions.

Most regions did not like the Taliban. Even Iran hates them. But most regions no longer trust NATO either. Now that America reneged on promises too many times. See the end of a movie called "Charlie Wilson's War" to appreciate when trust was first poisoned. Fool me thrice ... shame on ... no way. Nobody is going to fall for it.

Worse, Karzai and his peers regard corruption as normal or essential. Not sure which. But corruption makes respect for a central government difficult as it also was in S Vietnam. Furthermore, they are playing a game of brinkmanship because they do not even know what will exist in the next years (see four paragraphs down).

To many parts of Pakistan's government, Afghanistan is an enemy. The Intercontinental Hotel bombing in Kabul was by Pakistan.

We must get out. NATO is trying to do that while minimizing the damage. Currently missing is something that must exist before going to war. An exit strategy that was, if it every existed, perverted when we all but protected bin Laden seven years ago.

Meanwhile, what is never publically discussed is necessary to have a successful exit strategy. All violence is only for getting to a peace table. Only honest leaders talk to everyone - especially the enemy. Something that extremist leaders before 2008 refused to do.

Talks started by Holbrook have been ongoing. Talks that may also explain why Karzai sometimes appears to be stabbing America in the back. When, in reality, is it part of those long ongoing negotiations. An essential exit strategy that never existed before 2008. That was not possible when diminished and foolish leaders said they must earn the right to talk to us.

The negotiations, after 2008, for an exit strategy exist. It’s just not clear how much leverage we have left. Extreme damage was done in 2003 when somebody decided that a complete lie called Mission Accomplished was more important. After 2008, an actual solution has been in the works.

I have to agree. The country of Afghanistan has not really had an effective central government, ever. Unless they understand what a generally more participatory government can bring to the table they will always return to what they know best, a feudal style of tribalism, a system that has worked for them for hundred if not thousands of years.

Or perhaps it could break up into smaller countries and form some type of union.

Can't, the acronym is already taken.

Seriously, you want to see the United States of Afghanistan at the Olympics? :lol:

... and get them used to corporations reaping (or raping) the countryside for natural resources.

Oh look, here come some Chinese men dressed in business suits. :rolleyes:
.

Okay, here's the plan.

We pump a few million barrels of oil under Afghanistan. Then we "discover" it and get all excited. Then the Chinese get interested and we do a deal with them that they take over maintaining security in exchange for access to the mineral rights. We bugger off, China gets to bleed out in the mountains for a decade.

Whaddaya think?

well now THEY know

That is a freakin awesome idea!

Oh, no problem...we just have to kill everyone who looks at this thread. Now, where is that mod at??

:bolt:

Relax, infi, it took damn near a decade to get Bin Laden, and we knew his real name! :devil:

The irony in this whole thing is that the Commie Chinese will go in there and build market based relationships with individual tribes after the self-styled Captalistic Americans abandon their attempted military imposition.

I wonder what changed his mind. Without double checking, I thought even as recently as mid 2011 he was optimistic about our chances of effecting lasting good.

"We led the horse to water."
"there is no value in pretending that Pakistan is an ally."
"Time to come home."
Agree, agree, yup.

DejaVue Nam. History repeats itself. These military types who view everything from a battlefield and tactical objectives were gun ho. That changed after 1970. Even Army officers in draft boards would tell inductees that they would do everything possible to get each rejected.

Nam was obviously in 1965 a defeat. But America had to sacrifice so much before even the military men realized what was well understood in "Making of a Quagmire" and "A Bright and Shining Lie". Even after the lies were exposed in the Pentagon Papers, still, so many so hated the American soldier at to remain gun ho.

We surrendered to the Taliban in 2003. That made victory over the Taliban difficult - probably impossible. But America had to sacrifice even tens of thousands of soldiers in Afghanistan until bin Laden and his supporters were killed or captured. Addressing the strategic objective in Afghanistan did not start until about 2008. And is now done.

The other part - conquering bin Laden's supporters was possible in 2002. And probably impossible now due to fundamental military doctrine from 2500 years ago that includes many concepts such as nation building.

Top brass hate to admit to defeat. But no way around it. George Jr surrendered to the Taliban in 2003. The legacy of that mistake cannot be rectified without doing even more and major harm to the American economy. Military men are some of the last to realize those costs.

Yon apparently appreciates what was the bigger picture back in mid 2000s. As so many in Nam also refused to admit until after 1970.

Military men spending too much time viewing the tactical are some of the last to grasp the strategic. DejaVue Nam.

The U.S. glass is half-full... and it's a start that has to happen sometime.

Reuters
Missy Ryan
Feb 16, 2012

Afghan peace push brings rare chance, risks, for U.S.
The article goes on to discuss some of the history of dealing with the Taliban.

Following on further allegations of the burning of Korans, we have a spree killing.

Poor bugger. Looks like he served - or was used - until he burned out, and now they're probably going to have to hang him.

Three families murdered, a nation outraged - again - and a messy problem made a little worse.

This is sad. Sad for the families and Afghans. HOLY COW if this is not the worst timing, there is never a good timing for this sort of thing. Not going to bode well for our policy decisions in Afghanistan. I feel bad for the other Joes who will have to deal with the consequences of this guys flipped out decision.

Yep. In this country the closest thing they have to justice is tribal payback. Retaliation is bound to come.

Give that soldier to the Afghans and let them try him.

Just made a bad situation worse.

I thought they were going to start doing better at assessing some of the bonker yo-yo's hanging around in the service.

I am constantly reminding people that the all voluntary service is nothing more than a slice of society. We can't eliminate all the crazies.

No, no more than we can predict who might come in here and shoot the place up. But we're not a matter of national security.

Maybe 4 tours is too much? Why would someone volunteer for 4 tours? Is that normal? I'm asking, because I really don't know. Wouldn't someone say "you know, you've already done 3 tours and not only are we concerned about burn-out we're concerned about why you keep wanting to go back."

Do they get more money each tour? Are there not opportunities in other capacities? Again, I'm asking, because I don't know.

That would only serve as punishment. As a deterrent to others, turn his children over to the Afghans as part of a cultural exchange program.
Yes, some repeatedly volunteer because they do get more money. Some repeatedly volunteer to get away from other domestic issues like a troubled marriage. There are other opportunities; but, as with civilian jobs the person may not be qualified and/or may not be released from their current position due to a shortage of replacements. A shortage of people to fill those positions is why they don't scrutinize repeat volunteers too carefully in the first place.

Thanks sexobon.

Yeah, that is what concerns me. In matters as important as this I think a bit more oversight is in order. Like, Mr Tour Number Four 'Cause His Wife Shut the Door could probably benefit from some extra counseling.

So it seems they're doing nothing to better assess the bonker yo-yos, just throw them back in and hope for the best.

Who runs the services, an MBA?

Yes, but it seems Lewis-McChord got more than their share.

That would lead me to believe there have been problems with internal leadership and unit culture driven by personalities. For instance there are many, many guys in my work area who love to sport "infidel" stickers, patches etc...then wear this paraphernalia around on deployment in front of our local hosts. Most of them have an attitude of "fuck the muj" and really could care less about the end state where we are deployed. One of our CSMs banned the patches/stickers and made a clear statement of what is acceptable in deportment and behavior. If this kind of action is not taken by our leadership then the troops think that anything is o.k.

They are also pleading a brain-damaging injury. Details whenever, I guess.

Doesn't really matter UG. The details on his TBI from a rollover accident in Iraq in 2008 have been out.

LA Times
3/15/12

Taliban suspends U.S. talks as Karzai demands NATO troop pullback

Once it became obvious even to the soldiers that the war was lost, then these same problems existed in Vietnam. Ie My Lai massacre.

Most famous massacres were first covered up by the brass. My Lai in Nam. Haditha in Iraq. Even Bradley Manning started due to a coverup of murder. We can easily conclude many more such atrocities existed and were successfully covered up.

Worse, in every case, the murderer was exonerated. In My Lai, those who tried to stop it were ignored or disparaged for multiple decades. Only recently honored for their bravery.

One can expect such murders by learning from a similar situation in Nam. Where the American army had already been defeated. But the brass was not willing to admit it.

BTW, that similarity was a reason for so much conflict between Karzai and a very informed Richard Holbrook.

You volunteer to join the military; you non't necessarily volunteer to do everything they have you do.

I don't know whether this guy in particular volunteered for this tour, but I remember lots of people being called up for extra tours for Iraq, past what a "standard" alotment was.

With the drawdown in Iraq, maybe we have enough forces that people with several tours under their belt already only go if they volunteer, though.

Yes, which makes me wonder again about the other questions.

I've heard from friends in the service that they are really paying a lot more attention to the mental health of our servicepeople (which is a good thing: I can't imagine not being affected by the things they do, and I value them for their service.)

So if this is true I think a couple things may not be happening that should be, or are not happening enough, or...just like in anything, someone fell through the cracks.

1) Extra 'allotments' shouldn't happen (within reason.) I mean, 4 tours? Eh, we need warm bodies. Joe Schmoe just got back, let's send him in again.
2) If someone is volunteering for an awful lot of extra 'allotments' some assessment needs to happen.

I think we're doing a better job of understanding the trauma of combat. At least, I've seen organizations devoted to getting veterans, especially veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, together. That they are 'not alone.' That even these tough brave people are human.

One of my friends did a tour in Iraq and a tour in Afghanistan. This guy is straight up the epitome of a Marine (great guy.) But his g-friend tells me he does have issues resulting from his experiences.

So either way, I'm skeptical that 'better' is being done.

Happy, I know I've been a dick and an arrogant ass lately. I am not coming from that space right now. I just really need to let you know that we do indeed volunteer to do everything asked of us when we join the military. Man, speaking as a former Drill Sergeant, it takes all of the nine weeks of Basic Training to get this idea out of the heads of new soldiers.

Reg Joe, I think you and HM are actually in agreement, witha slight miscommunication.

When the recruit volunteers, they are volunteering for whatever the military will subsequently require of them. (your point).

When the big wigs decide to invade somewhere, they do not go amongst the troops and say, "okay, who wants to volunteer for the invasion of Fubaristan?" The initial act of volunteering for the military is deemed to cover that already (HM's point) and if the powers decide to send you, they send you.

I believe this is not quite right, and that service-people can and do put themselves forward of additional tours if they feel up to it. This might count as "additional volunteering".

Is this right?

Anyway, back to the recent incident. What was the guy's supervising officer up to? His base commander? Medical staff? Even his buddies? Did no one notice any warning signs that he was losing it? :eyebrow: IMHO, that is where the responsibility lies.

Definitely sign up for in or out, no menu choices.
Karzai want coalition forces corraled, but don't leave just yet, in case he needs them to save his sorry ass, plus keep the money and shit flowing.
I assume you read Mike Yon, Joe.

Agreed... from the moment I heard of the incident.

He'd just been through psychological evaluation and sniper training before this tour.

Well, his shooting ability is beyond question... (going straight to hell)

Oh I don't know, it was like fish in a barrel, eh...(following Zen straight to hell)

From da Beeb: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17395066

It's a goddam shame. :headshake

It could have been worse: the guy could have burned a Koran.

Right. What I was saying was that people going on multiple tours weren't necessarily volunteering for each tour individually. Once you join, you're volunteering to do whatever they lawfully require.

But in this case, I'm got impression from one discussion on NPR that he had in fact volunteered for the fourth tour after having trouble in civilian life after the first three. But I only caught part of the discussion.

For what it's worth...

KOMO 4 NEWS and the ASSOCIATED PRESS
March 16, 2012

Suspect in Afghan massacre identified as local soldier

Yeah, I heard that on NPR on the way home...

New Zealand have just lost three more soldiers in Afghanistan, bringing their losses to ten.

The bodies of the fallen were received back at their base by a giant haka or ceremonial dance. This video shows it very well, not too intrusively, and with absolutely no inane commentary.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-2...mrades/4225346

Spine chilling.

That is exactly what my country is missing. We beat each other up in parking lots for backing the wrong team instead.

reminded me of this:

The haka was awesome. I wish we had something similar

I was thinking, what would it be like here if we brought our soldiers home with such passion. Instead we bury ours under a cultural love affair with apathy, greed, selfishness, embodied in such things as fake reality tv shows and fake politicians.