for you , maybe...because you're not reading. It seems to me that this conversation is about personal liberty. meh.

I believe in innocent until proven guilty as a legal construct, but it doesn't mean someone is actually innocent.

I agree that under your hypothetical law, a date rapist would have the ability to force his victim to carry the child. I was pointing that out as an inevitable, and harmful, consequence of your proposal.
That's an understatement.That's what we have now. What would you change?
You don't seem to have a comprehension of your own idea. Don't blame the reader.

This is not really an unexpected outcome. Science and progress often lead to legal redefinition, and this would be particularly true for the beginning and end of life: points in time where the stakes are very high, and the science so likely to change things.

No. As long as all women honor the fathers as paramount. As long as all women consider the fathers' wishes to outweigh their own. As long as all women consider their own wishes to be subordinate to those of the men they have sex with.

Wow. You are an asshole sometimes LJ. What do they call this? A smack-down? But geez..... sometimes I really like it.

This just in: I really must be going to hell.
:sniff:

Lol!!!! Really? lol!!!
Is that really what this is about?
LOL!!!! Right..... That's a good one!!!! Oh jeez....Why is that so funny?

It's only called a smack down if you're drinking Miller High Life and watching Nascar in your wifebeater. ...because wrestling isn't on.

now, why would you choose this moment to call me an asshole? i don't really mind so much, but I'm curious about the timing. I mean....it's quite plain that you are attracted to me, but ...must you be so blatant in your overtures? my wife is a member, you know.

Is she the one who's been spraying you with Axe (Linx)?

Oh right..... You aren't an asshole....is this one of those spontaneous games where I have to guess the game?

Oh wait. You haven't denied it yet.

What? I'm confused.

Any moment isn't a good moment to call you an asshole LJ?
Do I have the right LJ?
How about now? Asshole.
lol!

I'm sorry it's a guilty pleasure- it's just so fun though- I can't stop.

Wellll......While i won't catagorically deny being an asshole ....at times.... I would say in a general sense that I am in fact, rather non assholular. That is ....I'm an asshole in the most appealing sense of the word ....at times.

Like.... you could say, "ah, Jim, you asshole...." and be smiling and I'd smile back and flip you the bird. And then shake my head and walk away still smiling.... But if you got all red in the face and balled your fists up impotently at your sides and screamed "YOU ASSHOLE!" at the top of your lungs in a crowded Library.....I might take some exception to that.


now...why don't you tell me how you really feel about me( I was just kidding about you being attracted to me, btw...i know I'm a big dork), and then we can deal with each other in an honest fashion. I like you, fwiw...I think you're one of the good n00bs.

You should be careful. I'll get typecast. You'll call me an asshole all the time, and as your star rises, others will glom onto you and start calling ma an asshole too. pretty soon, the definition of asshole will change in to a synonym for 'gregarious'. and you'll ruin the word.....like what happened to 'gay'.

worse than that, I'll resort to turnabout and start calling you something semi offensive and catchy....like......'dirty bitch'.....I know it's pirated from Anchorman, but it has a nice hook to it, i think. ya dirty bitch.

Nope, that's wrong, do you want to try another answer? Maybe you didn't read posts 241, 213, 173, 170 etc...?
Do you have enough honor to admit that you're wrong, or is that beneath you?

I haven't heard, "ignorant slut", in years.

.....I have.....that's not good right?

Dana - you may be many things, but an ignorant slut is definitely not one of them.

Not either of them.


(er, that is to say, not ignorant nor a slut)

*grins*

thanks UT - preciate it

[Sir Bedemere] how do you knooooow she's not a slut?[/Sir Bedemere]

Well for one she's English!

Absolutely









and for another I'm not Catholic....

So you are a slut - I knew it!






j/k

Hey...I'm a catholic.

One of my very dearest friends is a Catholic. In fact she's a latin teacher at a catholic girls. boarding school. She's a filthy slut that one :P She's the one the stories have in mind.

rk, if the man wants the baby, and the woman doesn't, who wins, and why, considering that your position is that the fetus is equally his and hers? How would the outcome differ under the honor system and your law? Would there be compensation for the woman, if the man keeps the baby? What if the man forces the woman to go full-term, then the woman decides to keep the baby?

:::a thousand other questions:::

No I'm just testing how many years I can shave off my life and I think the 'being attracted to you' statement did the trick. I think it probably took the little bit of youth I had left. *If you are taking me seriously- that is a whole other problem*

Ignorant maybe, but slut would be nice. And at least I would be getting some action. (with or without the permission slip from RK)
:)

Now- in all seriousness xo Bruce. Better watch it or I'm going to take my vote for you out of the nomination thread and stick it somewhere you are not going to like. Mean-spirited antics like that do as well with me as dog shit all over my shoes. For all wondering: that's not good. Oh, and if you are going to give me a nice little nickname like that you had better be able to back that up with some tangible proof or stay the hell away from me. I never disrespected you in any way, and I don't expect to be treated with any less respect because you have decided to assasinate my character on a whim. I may be ignorant of a lot of things...but I know when someone is being a bratty little bitch for no reason. Abuse someone else motherfucker. This started when you were deciding whether or not I sexually manipulate men and manipulate with kids. You are fucked up. I don't need to hear that stuff, and I don't need your projections about the state of my personal life. You aren't anywhere close to knowing me to make those assumptions and thank god for small miracles like that one. This is me- jumping on your ass..........and it's not going to stop until you act like a man rather than a little bully on an adult playground. Throw some more of your colorful terms around....maybe you'll accidentally get something right.


:) There I feel better.

I neither stated nor implied any of those.

That's how I feel about a special someone, too.

First, that is a difficult conversation worked out between the two.
I don't pretend to be a moral authority, though I admit I have come across as one in here to make a point, a mistake on my part, one I regret.
I cannot hide the fact that my hope would be for life for the child if the woman is in good health and realizes she made a choice and should live with the short term responsibility. She does not have to keep the baby if he, as I have stated, wishes full custody.
If the man has honor and I would hope if a law was in place, he would pay all costs for pregnancy and all stemming from it.
If she changes her mind the child is as much hers as it is his.

Ignorant slut?

Please share... :D

Yes you did. By suggesting that the man should have right of veto over a woman's decision to abort a baby, and by extending that to suggest that any woman having sex and getting accidentally pregnant should be subject to that veto, you have implied exactly that.

First of all go fuck yourself, you don't threaten me.
Second of all, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, because anyone with half a brain would know I wasn't talking to you or about you.

I was talking about the Saturday Night Live routine where Jane Curtain was called an ignorant slut every week, just as LJ threatened to hang a "dirty bitch" handle on you. If was a comment on his theatrics.

Get a clue, it's not all about you.

Anyway, what's wrong with being an ignorant slut?

Ok....now I feel terrible....oh.

That is how I read it. But plenty of people have misread things I have posted in jest and ended up taking it personally. Whatever.

Seems to me because you are a sexist.

Also, another cannot make you feel something... you choose how you react emotionally to your environment.

Don't worry about it, I'll give you plenty of reason to hate me later.
In the mean time, take off those shoes and get back in the kitchen.

Oh *wipes tears of laughter from cheeks* Oh rk, please, you're killing me.

I think the important thing here is that we are all aware of what cocksuckers the rest of us are. I mean, really. What a bunch of assholes you all are. bunch of oversensitive ignorant dirty bitch sluts. sexist commie fascist raping pig fuckers. I hope you all stub your toes on Christmas morning. And get an anal fissure. And I'm the worst of the lot. except for bruce. that motherfucker is appalling.

great thread everyone.

except you!

"...Good night and have a pleasant tomorrow!"

:ipray:

The base issue here is how to allot an equal amount of input and responsibility to both parties, correct? I hate to say it, but I see no practical, legal way for a man to keep his child if the mother wants to terminate. Even if we could somehow remove a 4 week-old fetus from the mother and raise it to term either in vitro or in vivo using another parent organism, the mother could not be forced to undergo the required surgery no matter how minor. Our only option as men? Keep your slimeball radar on at all times and take a really close look at who you're about to go down on, she has all the power once the lights get turned back on.
What I do see as being a legitimate recourse for men, is the right to request the woman undergo an abortion if he cannot afford to pay child support. In this case the shoe is on the other foot ladies, if your economic situation is a case for termination, then his should be as well. If the woman refuses, then she must agree to shoulder the cost of the child. Ladies, take the same advise as in the first paragraph.


The injustice I see here is that the arguments for aborting the child in the case of the woman are considered irrelevant when applied to men.

That is absolutely awesome!

That is one problem I have with the anti-choice group. They want to force women to have babies, but don't do anything to help resolve the reason that a woman would choose to have an abortion. "Have that baby, but we're not going to help you raise it, or provide for it, or help with child-care. But we're still gonna force you to have the damn thing!"

Fine, though I am not anti-choice and stated so multiple times.
Just as long as the Pro-woman-only-choice group states that by their logic men's child support is immoral, being that it is the same thing.

Quite frankly I find the idea of men deciding what women should do with their bodies quite abhorrent. I know several women who have had abortions for various reasons, and none of them chose to abort on a whim. (Not even the girl who got raped by her stepfather at 15.) At this time in my life I couldn't imagine getting an abortion, nor do I think I'd've been able to do it even as a poor student, but it's not up to me to dictate to other women what they can or cannot do.

However, I utterly despise women who get pregnant on purpose to try and blackmail child support payments. So yes, men should be able to opt out of their fatherhood. However, this would mean that they would have absolutely no rights to the child at all, and if they later changed their mind, they would be liable to retroactively pay every missed payment.

The thing is, these days a woman getting pregnant outside marriage isn't something that need destroy her life. There was a time nobody would want to employ such a woman, therefore a man who got that woman pregnant and then wouldn't help support the child was consigning both to poverty and moral opprobrium.

These days? I don't think any man should be forced to be a father if he doesn't want to be one. That said, I also believe the State should ensure that such children are not having to survive undue hardship due to poverty.

So where is the state getting the money?

From general taxation.

So you've changed your mind since 2004, then?

Actually, yes I have changed my mind on that. Probably seeing a couple of friends shafted by the child support agency had something to do with that.

Yep, that'll do it. :)

:P

Men or women? I'd love to know that I'm not the only one getting totally screwed by this AND have virtually no recourse. According to the Domestic Relations Office.

I thought you had custody, yesman? Is she not paying you, is that the issue?

why should the state have to support a child that it didn't father? If the single woman chooses to give birth to a child that she cannot support financially, why do you and I have to? I didnt even get a reach-around!