^tw's sock puppet

Yeah. I need to ponder this.

Demonstrated was why shotgunning does so poorly at eliminating problems. So what has changed? As Gravedigr suggests, collect facts. List every part that was touched (not just moved- touched) when you replaced a filter. What has been touched recently? Not when the intermittent occurred. But even a week previously.

The number of possibilities is literally approaching 1000. No exaggeration. Good diagnostic procedure means reducing that suspect list to more like 100. Which is why replacing the filter only on speculation was so unlikely to be the defect. Especially if blowing in the old filter did not expose a restriction. And since a restricted filter only causes problems on acceleration - not at idle.

Imagine a wire of 32 strands. All are broken. Move that cable and some remain in contact. Move the cable and too many are disconnected causing confusion to the computer or insufficient power to a solenoid. Replace a solenoid. That new one might work with two less strands connected. But the problem still exists. Just fails less often. Only symptoms cured.

Above demonstrates what you are dealing with. Previously listed were how to eliminate some more common suspects (ie EGR valve, vacuum advance and retard system, intermittent manifold leak or defective idle control valve, partially broken cable, dirty connector that gets cleaned by making and breaking and then fails months later because the reason for that corrosion was not identified and eliminated, etc).

Well, one symptom that eliminates some suspects is temperature. Apparently (does?) temperature is unrelated to good and bad operation. Has fuel been eliminated as a suspect - were consecutive tanks from the same station or brand? When the intermittent exists, what exactly do you do to make the problem repeatable or make it worse? Do lights change intensity? Do tires make more noise? Irrelevant is a belief that tires are irrelevant. Solving intermittents means collecting all facts irregardless of whehter you believe it is irrelevant. BTW, that is a repeated concept so accurately expressed in a TV show called House.

I routinely get called when others cannot solve strange problems. Many never learn that this is critically important. Collecting facts and symptoms is completely unrelated to identifying the problem. Which is also irrelevant to what comes later - eliminating the defect.

As I said without exaggeration. Your list of suspects is somewhere approaching 1000. Getting that number down means collecting facts as Gravedigr noted. And then identify a defect long before replacing any parts. Yes, even strange noise from tires in rare cases can be the kicker that identifies an intermittent engine problem.

[bold mine]

Eloquently said.

The weather was finally nice enough yesterday for me to work on the car. Except of course, Murphy's law said that I was booked solid for most of the day with other stuff. I only had about half an hour in the late afternoon to look at it.

But I found a problem.

I wanted to start by pulling the spark plugs and looking at them so see what shape they were in. Then I wanted to get a spark tester to check that there was a good spark at each plug.

The car is 12 years old, and I was concerned that the plugs might be hard to remove. I had read about some guy on the internet who tried to check his plugs, and one broke off during removal, leaving threads locked in place in the cylinder head. That would suck, and I wanted to avoid that. So I planned ahead by switching the cars in the driveway so I could use the other one all day running errands, and the Camry engine could get nice and cold. Cold metal shrinks. I also went to the parts store to get the proper sized spark plug socket and an extension, and I got an ignition tester. I squirted a little PB Blaster down into the spark plug tubes about 5 minutes before I tried to loosen the plugs.

So it was time. I pulled the wires off the first plug, put the socket on the extension, attached it to the ratchet, and fed it down into the tube and onto the plug. I tentatively started to push on the wrench, and the plug started unscrewing with almost no effort at all. It was about as hard as unscrewing a light bulb.

I pulled the plug out. It was wet from the penetrating oil I had sprayed in there. But it looked like this:
Attachment 46540

There's a little carbon build up, but I don't know how much is normal. Each plug looks like this.

The thing that took too long to jump out at me though, is that it's the WRONG spark plug. This car is supposed to have special plugs with two grounding electrodes. One on each side. This 5S-FE engine takes the NGK BKR6EKPB11 spark plug. It's a special metal with two prongs, not your standard single prong. Plus, these plugs were so easy to get out, I think the previous owner had changed the plugs not too long ago and put the wrong ones in.

So then I checked the spark with the tester. This is basically a fake spark plug that you stick into the end of a plug wire and ground against any convenient grounding point. I'm not sure how you're supposed to perform this test. With the engine running, or starting it up each time after making the connection. Anyway, I did it with the engine running, and even without completing any circuits with my body, I was getting zapped while trying to plug it in to the spark plug wire with the engine running. I put on an extra pair of rubber gloves over the nitrile gloves I was wearing, but was still getting a shock through those gloves. It was kind of comical. But anyway I saw consistent sparks in the tester at each wire and they looked equally strong to me. But what do I know? It's the first time I've seen sparks, and I'm not sure how they are supposed to look.

So now two questions:

1. I was running the engine for a while with various spark plugs disconnected. The engine obviously ran poorly during this time, but it was nothing like the way it behaves when it's about to stall. The weird thing though is that the check engine light never came on. You'd think the computer would be pissed off about no spark in various cylinders over a 5 minute time frame, but that light never came on, and no codes were reported. It that a problem?

2. Would the wrong spark plugs with only a single grounding electrode instead of the dual grounding electrodes cause the intermittent stalling problem? The manual said using the wrong plug would result in poor engine performance, but I figured it would be consistently poor, not intermittently poor. I didn't put the correct plugs in yet. Too late in the day to go out and track them down and I was losing light. But I'm definitely going to get the correct plugs and put them in.

Oh, and the voltage was maybe a little high?

12.75 at the battery with the engine off, and 14.75 with the engine on and alternator running. Later after the engine warmed up, it was 14.55 with the engine on and alternator running.

That plug looks good, it is burning properly. I would replace the wires and plugs just because, and drive that car until till the wheels fall off. I would check the cold start injector for function. Go to the library and get the Chiltons Manuel for that car it will tell you the proper diagnoses procedures for the fuel injection and other systems. Do not use Haynes books they don't tell you anything about trouble shooting.

Thanks. It's nice to have a second set of eyes looking at this.

Spark plug tester really says little that is useful. Same could be learned by connecting to spark plugs mounted atop the engine. Crank the engine (someone else inside) while observing plug spark. Each spark will be strong and obvious.

Ceramic around the center prong should not have anything caked on it. Problem is if carbon has formed that would short the center prong to plug's metal - a path that would not create a spark. Carbon means the engine is eating oil.

More problematic would be a spark plug of the wrong heat range. You cannot test for that. Strange, but when I tried various heat ranges, it did result in poorer operation. In the days when normal was for an engine to leak oil, we would use a plug of one heat range higher. This burned off oil but also caused the engine to run poorer.

I have seen where another manufacturer's equivalent plug did cause some lesser performance. IOW I had trouble with an AC Delco equivalent. Ended up replacing the NKGs.

Since those days, we no longer replaced spark plugs. Electronic ignition and better machined engines eliminated spark plug replacement.

Since plugs are out, then just replace them with new ones. Plugs are cheap. Nothing can properly test a plug and what is important - its heat range.

Two electrodes or one makes little different. At one point, scam manufacturers were one hyping a superior design. In reality, the plug only creates a spark across one path - not matter how many other paths might exist. However using only various plugs recommended by the manufacturer has (in a rare case) proven important.

Be very careful about restoring plugs with proper torque. Over torquing is why plugs break off, strip threads, or seize in an aluminum block engine.

Why does my hemi have two plugs per cylinder?

Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

:lol:

Part of making a 70 Hp/liter engine involved the swirling of fuel inside a cylinder. So that an ignited flame did not slam directly down on the piston. But instead swirled down. This even scoured and burned condensing fuel from cylinder sidewalls.

A best way to accomplish this used four valves per cylinder. Another technique was to trigger an ignition with multiple plugs. A technique also implemented in Wankels. Some designs would even stagger when plugs fired.

None of that is relevant to his spark plug inspection.

Oh, i looked that up after I asked it. What I found said it fires the second plug during the exhaust stroke to clean up its emissions.

That's interesting. I learned from the manual that this Camry has a wasted spark system, which means the park plug fires twice. Once to ignite the fuel, and once during exhaust with the piston at the bottom. It didn't specifically say this was for emissions, but that's a fringe benefit. This wasted spark ignition system does away with a distributor, which supposedly makes the engine more reliable. The computer controls it all based on input from the camshaft sensor and crankshaft sensor.

But anyway, progress last night. Things came to a head. The car started misfiring and the check engine light came on! Misfire in cylinder 4. The idle dropped down to around 500 like it had been doing. So what I think happened was that I made whatever the problem was even worse by pulling the plugs and reinstalling them. That makes me think it's a spark plug wire. I had ordered new plugs and wires yesterday, and will replace them this weekend, after we get back from a funeral (my aunt's) in NEPA. If the plugs and wires don't fix it, it's probably the 1,4 coil/igniter. I think it was gravdigr who said way back in the beginning that it was a coil. We shall see.

It could be a spark plug wire or even electronics that drive that wire. Or a cracked conductor inside one plug.

Remove that spark plug. Leave it connected to its wire. Somehow mount it to the engine. Crank the engine. Observe spark on that plug. A defective spark will clearly be evident and diminished. A weak spark drives an engine normally most of the time. But that spark could have always been defective.

To appreciate a good spark, remove another plug to perform the same test. That spark will be fully formed or clearly diminished even when only cranking its starter.

If a clearly diminished spark does not exist, then move things to make a defective (weak) spark. Even freezing the spark plug before connecting it to test may expose a cracked conductor inside the spark plug.

Keep hands clear. Pre-electronic ignitions created only 20,000 volts. That hurt. Don't learn like I did. Electronic ignitions create higher voltages and greater current. Best is to use something like vise gripping pliers to hold or prop that spark plug against its engine block. A spark can even penetrate through heavy insulation on a spark plug wire. Do not even touch the wire.

Normal is for a computer to see a weak spark and not report it until after multiple engine restarts or some other conditions. Since reporting too many intermittents every time causes many mechanics ignore all error codes.

Cleaning up emissions is also increasing gas mileage and horsepower.

While waiting for the new plugs and cables I ordered, I went out and checked to see if the car is still messed up.

This is the spark plug wire at cylinder 4. Look at the spark shooting out the side of the wire. No wonder there is a misfire.

Yah. That's not supposed to happen.

For future reference. Inspecting that wire at night with the engine running would have identified the fault. An example of identifying a defect before it creates a failure.

I asked one of the Champion applications guys, he said exactly this.

I read somewhere that with the two electrodes, the spark prefers the narrower gap and stays on that side until the gap widens over time, and then the spark switches over to the other gap, because now it's the narrow one. It alternates like that as the gaps wear over time.

Since this plug fires twice per cycle in this wasted spark ignition system, it wears faster than in an engine that fires once per cycle, and having the two electrodes makes up for that quicker wear.

That's what I read, anyway.

There are many tools designed just for this purpose. They are all dirt cheap, and they all beat the shit outta getting hit by that ~60,000 volt jolt.

Do not grab that wire or plug with Vise Grip pliers.

Yeah. I was shaking my head at that one too.

Using a powerful conductive tool to crush a high voltage component. Damage it and get a shock too. :headshake

Necessary for testing is to hold a spark plug to the block. Also noted was to not use hands to hold anything. Why would anyone assume vise grips are held by a hand? Pliers obviously hold a spark plug to the block so that a human does not. And so that the better test will work. Obviously something that is not human must hold a spark plug in contact with the block. Why would anyone assume otherwise?

Using vise grips was a best solution that obviously does not cause damage. What was obvious should not need explaining. Something must hold a spark plug's steel body to engine block steel. Why would anyone assume a human holds anything?

Two electrodes per plug was a sales gimmick decades ago. And obviously a sales gimmick today. A spark will cross only one gap whose distance is less than defined by voltage. Irrelevant is it using alternative electrodes. Because a spark only crosses one gap with each spark - meaning it works just like a single electrode spark plug.

Scam manufacturers once hyped spark plugs with multiple contacts. It did nothing useful. More important than multiple contacts is a plug's heat range. Integrity of its ceramic insulator. And how to install it at a proper torque. Did a salesmen forget to mention other and more important parameters to make a sale? When spark plug voltages were so low (ie 18,000 volts), then a spark's gap was important. Today, we no longer need adjust gaps to within 0.01 inches.

Spark plugs once required frequent replacement since metal was of lower quality. Spark plugs are now made using higher temperature metals meaning plug wear and replacement is now rare.

maybe because they are classified as HAND TOOLS?

what tiny shred of credibility you ever had is now gone. between this and the tits.... jesus. get help

Use 2 spring loaded clips of a size that will fit the plug, some insulated wire. Clip to plug and ground. I have one in the shop I've used for years on lawn mowers. No. No photo today. :bolt:

They are vise grips because the tool is attached and left untouched. Can you be any more stupid? Please try. Is this totally justified insult of your intelligence simple enough to comprehend? Sorry. The word has ten letters. Do you understand it? Electricity has eleven letters. Apparently that is confusing.

For others: Lumberjim posts insults because he knew Jeeps are better on slippery roads. He said he knows because he feels it is true. Facts that exposed his myth make him angry. He cannot accept that myths and hearsay so easily manipulate. So the emotional Lumberjim constantly posts insults like an adult thinking like a child.

Any idiot would not hold 20,000 volts with a metal tool. Clamp it in place with a hand tool such as vise grips or a clip. So simple to grasp. But the fewest, such as Lumberjim, fear to learn. Then get angry and post insults.

Don't like "The TW Treatment" I see.

Let's try this, please post a pic of what you think Vise Grips are.

Cuz, the rest of us are talking about this;

Attachment 46598

Please to note it is a ƒucking hand tool.

Jackhole.

And if that is what you were referring to, you obviously know fuckall about tools.

So where is the hand? Not touching the vise grip when those pliers are holding a spark plug to the block. Why should the obvious be explained?

Demonstrated here is a question to answer your first question: What, do you think they attach themselves by way of magic? Mental telepathy? No wonder you are confused.

Second question addressed: Because you often appear to know something about which you post, and, at this time, you appear to be an idiot.

Leave it as you will, but, don't try to make those of us who know what we're talking about look dumb just because you spoke out of your ass about something you don't seem to comprehend. And refuse to understand.

It's right here.

Aaaaand you don't know how to post a picture.


I'm done, now.

Wow. You are so easily made emotional. Meanwhile 1) vise grips hold a spark plug to the block while the hand is inside the car turning the key. Did you think about that? 2) Vise grips clamped to the engine block mean vise grips are at zero volts. Did you think about that? 3) Vise grips holding a spark plug to the block means no hands need hold the vise grips. It is so simple that even a child can comprehend it.

BTW, be very careful to not take a piss using vise grips. Should you need that explained, then just ask.

you mad, bro?

Clip one end to spark end of plug other to ground.

Oh, glatt, I'm pretty sure tw just called you an idiot. Just sayin

The only idiot is the guy who posts insults because he cannot read. That is you, bro.

What insult?

Changed the plugs and wires, and it's working well now. Or at least for the 2 minutes I let it idle. We'll see how it does after running errands.

I suspect that the intermittent stalling problem was a separate issue, and may crop up again. But after considerable research, I suspect that the engine coolant temperature sensor is the culprit. Apparently a lot of Camry owners have had this problem and fixed it by replacing that sensor. But there's an easy test. If the problem manifests itself again, I just unplug that sensor. If it gets better, it was the sensor, and it needs replacing.

Yesterday I switched out the engine coolant temperature sensor. The car had been behaving normally for a few weeks, but based on my research and questions at a Toyota repair forum, I think an intermittent fault at this sensor was causing my stalling problems, and the bad spark plug wires were just a coincidence.

So I let the car cool off so I wouldn't burn myself on the coolant gushing out when I removed the sensor and quickly inserted the new one. And I made the switch.
New:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/02/u9a9equz.jpg

Old:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/02/zu2uqe3e.jpg

The old one has a copper washer, did the new one?

Nope. Coolant was gushing out of the hole when I pulled the old sensor out, and I didn't notice the old washer until after I got the new sensor in and saw the shiny washer had been flushed away onto the transaxle or something. I had lost roughly a cup or two of coolant, and didn't want to lose even more putting the washer back. I put plumbers tape on the threads of the new sensor, and it's not leaking, even after running the engine for a while.

I mopped up the spilled coolant with a rag the best I could, and hosed the rest away with plenty of water.

If the sensor was defective, then charts from the Car Chip for that sensor would make the defect obvious. The sensor would report engine temperatures that make no sense. Or that change suddenly.

I never got a car chip report from that sensor that also happened at the same time the symptoms were occurring. The car chip is neat, but it can only track 4 things at a time. If you pick the 4 wrong things to track, it doesn't help you. When I did watch the temperature, it was normal and the car behaved normally. That's the big difficulty with this intermittent problem. How can you study a problem if you can't recreate it consistently? After I had settled on this sensor being a problem, the car behaved perfectly, so I couldn't test the theory by just unplugging the sensor when the stalling happened, and seeing if the car improved.

But I did check the resistance of both the new sensor and the old sensor at room temperature, and they didn't match. I played with the old sensor by running it under hot water, and it was cool watching the resistance change as the water got hotter. So the old sensor did something. Not sure if it was the right thing.

I'll tell you this though. My wife was talking about selling the car if this kept up much longer. So I didn't have the luxury of doing nothing and just waiting for the problem to happen again so I could study it some more. A $30 educated guess is OK with me. Better than losing thousand by having to get rid of the car and find a new one.

Based on a few different posts at Toyota Nation, where people had this exact same problem, and the ECT sensor was the culprit, I'm fairly confident this is going to fix it. We'll know if the car doesn't stall before the end of March. 2 months is the longest it ever went without stalling. I may be eating my words. We'll see.

What!!! She wants to take away your fun?

How do you know if it's critical to replace tires if there is plenty of tread left? When we bought this car over a year ago, the tires looked like this, and we have been driving around on them since then without incident. Mostly city driving. Occasionally highway.

I'd like new tires, but 4 new ones of respectable quality will cost about $650-$700 installed, so I only want to replace if necessary.

See the good tread? See all those little cracks? They all look like this. Are they ok?
Attachment 46839

no. that's dry rot. dangerous.

get new tires.

OK, do you expect that I'm better off ordering them from Tire Rack online and paying to have them installed, or do you think I'd get a better deal just going to a tire place? Obviously, I can make some phone calls to compare prices, but if you have insight, I'd be curious.

I'd probably choose Michelin Primacy MXV4 tires because Consumer Reports rated them highest, and they are about the same price as other top tires.

I'd order them, and take them to walmart for installation. or pep boys... tire sales are the life blood of many retail service centers. I got my Nitto Dura Grapplers from DiscountTiresDirect, had them shipped here, to my work, and got them installed. I buy the 2nd best tires, unless the price drop is minor... in which case, I buy the best.

Crap... my tires look like glatt's, I didn't realize they were that bad off. How long are tires normally supposed to last? The car is only 18 months old. Is it because it came with cheap tires to begin with?

depends on your weather too... and the tires may be much older than the date they were installed. You gotta check that when you buy them... .make sure they aren't already 3 years old.... and then if you live in a hot dry place, keep them protected with Tire Dressing or Armor All or something.

Yeah, it's probably time to replace all four. Do you have an opinion on Michelin Energy Saver A/S tires? That's the one the Lamb's tire guy is recommending based on how frequently I commute to Houston and back. (I'm at just under 30,000 miles in 16 months...)

whook. that's a lot of driving. I'm not a tire expert... but in Houston... do you need an All Season Tire? what kind of car is it? year, make, model, sub model... engine type, please..

2012 Toyota Sienna, I think it's the LE--it's the lowest available package, whatever that is. I don't know what kind of engine, V6 I assume?

The base Sienna has 17" tires, but the AWD version has 18". both have TPMS.

The Michelins get mostly good reviews.... I love my Nittos... here's one for your car... no reviews, but they get A ratings...

Consumer Reports ranks the Michelin Energy Saver A/S as the best for all season mpg tires.
Attachment 46840