borders? It is idolatry.

You guys are really getting off track. Idolatry is the worship of an idol representing a diety. Since Christians worship Jesus and God, and since they are baying the loudest over keeping God in the pledge then it stands to reason that they are not worshipping the flag. They are pledging their allegience - loyalty- to the United States as represented in the classroom by the flag. All "allegience" means is that you will not put another country ahead of the United States - what's so bad about that? If you can't or don't want to then don't become a citizen (or renounce your citizenship and all the bennies that come with it).

I don't know what the big deal is about the pledge. If athiests don't want to say "under god" then no one should make them. They should be permitted to recite the old "pre-god" version. People who are religiously opposed to the pledge should not be forced to recite it at all - they can lip synch a prayer orremain seated. The very idea that we need to cancel the pledge because someone who sits it out "might" get some derision is so beyond asinine that I don't have any words for it. Sitting out the pledge on some valid principle is the most American thing I can think of and the courage of any student who did so in the face of derision is a model American for the other students to observe and learn from. Its a teacher's job to point that out.

All this fuss for such a small deal.

A president put "under god" in the pledge and, since he was president and all, he gets to do stuff like that. Some other president is free to take it out. Maybe the Kerry supporters could encourage Kerry to make that part of his platform.

Glatt, in fact, W has the opposite opinion of his pop, mentioning lack of faith as something that has to be accepted in the same way as other faiths.

a belief in no god is no different than a belief in god. it is accepted on faith. so therefore atheism is a faith in it's own right.

Umm. That makes no sense.

Athiesm is based on an absence of faith not on faith.

atheisim is a belief that there is no god. it cannot be proven that there is no god so atheism has to be accepted on faith.

I can see we are going around in circles on this one. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

i agree. buuut. think it through. a belief in something that cannot be proven is a belief based on faith. a belief that there is no god cannot be proven, so it must be based on faith.

i'm not trying to say that you belong to a religion, merely that atheism is not a lack of faith.

Nyet.

A mouse that lives in my garage and I were talking last week and he told me that there is a planetoid exactly on the other side of the moon such that we can never see it. That is where his family lives. He seems credible and has good stash so I take what he says on faith.

Now before you read (past tense) this post, you did not (I hope :-) believe there was a planetoid of intelligent mice on the other side of the moon. Hopefully you still don't. So, I can say with reasonable certainty that your belief system hasn't changed in spite of my tale. So, at what point did it become an act of faith on your part that you didn't/don't believe in a 2nd moon?

But the atheists HAVE considered whether there is a god (planetoid) before. If the atheists had never heard of god, your analogy would work.

And then they'd merely be Heathens :p

Bald is also a hair color, and not collecting stamps is a hobby.

I still think my analogy works (can't help it - I'm stubborn :-).

My point is this. Atheists never believed in God. When someone else introduced them to the idea, they still didn't. It didn't spontaneously become an act of faith at the instant they became exposed to the idea even if they briefly considered it.

Belief in the absence of evidence is faith.
Disbelief in the presence of evidence is faith.
Disbelief in the absence of evidence is not faith (imho).

Note to self: add atheists to the list of "i before e" exceptions :)

ok now you have screwed up my day - i'm giong to be stressed out about an invasion of talking mice from outer space.
here's the thing - unless i can PROVE that there is not a planet filled with talking mice, then my belief that there isn't is a matter of faith.

belief without proof is faith. period. if you can point out to me why this is inaccurate i will alter my view. but you can't. if it was proveable it would be a fact, then you can choose to accept or ignore it. if it is unproveable then is a choice to believe or not believe - no matter which side you land on you are relying on faith.

So for you, faith is almost meaningless? I guess I thought the word had a stronger, more active implication. I've got faith in things like friends and family, not in the lack of faeries.