It's that whole change factor...many people hate change, be it the way the icing is put on their donut, or allowing gays and lesbians to marry.

That may be how they run their lives, but I resent like hell their efforts to run MY life.

The Bible isn't my book. Why do I have to follow it?

- Pie

Sure, nobody should expect the world to revolve around them. But as you stated in the first sentence gay people deserve a right to be treated decently and not be discriminated against, so if they want to marry, they should be allowed to marry.

Gotta get the hell off this computer for awhile, but thanks for the interesting conversation....even you FNF ;-)

Been lurking here for awhile now, don't have alot of time to post, but this is a fascinating place and I love the topics & images & personalities.

Later

Pie,

I wasn't saying that you did. I was commenting on the fact that someone said the Bible isn't law, when to many it is.

I don't live by the thing either, and resent when it's shoved down my throat. Unfortunately, the majority of people do live by those tenets, and take those beliefs with them into office when they're elected. (But that's a whole other issue)

Dagney

Interracial Marriage
 

Here's a comparison between the arguments against gay marriage and the arguments against interracial marriage.

Are there any arguments against gay marriage that weren't used against interracial marriage?

What a lot of the debates on gay "marriage" miss is this ...

Marriage is a religious contract that has also been given civil status. (for a modern example ... consider the necessity for observant catholics to pursue an anullment in addition to the civil divorce, or jews to obtain a get.)

As a religious contract is is defined and established as a union between a man and a woman.

I happen to agree on this one with Blue58 (hi blue) ... find some other word(s) to describe it, but it's not "marriage."

Civil Union fine ... and I'm also cool with the notion of civil union being open to heterosexual couples as well. I'm not objecting to a formalizing of the relationship, just to the use of the term.

Marriage WAS a religious contract. Yet overtime the meaning has shifted. My parents are married yet no religious ceremony ever took place.

Civil Union sounds like something friends have. Marriage seems to be something reserved for couples in love.

I think saying that heterosexuals can get married, and also civil unions while gays can ONLY have civil unions is once again, unfair treatment.

Now all of a sudden it's become piss easy to invalidate all the benifits of gay marriages. Just make it so that only "married" couples can file jointly for taxes, addopt kids etc while civil union is just that...bs.

It's like the segregation all over again "Oh yes, you're black so you CAN ride the public bus but you must sit in the back. You're white, you too can ride the bus, you can sit in the front, well also the back if you like...but thats where 'they' sit..."

There are many religions, some of which perform gay marriages. Why shouldn't those couples get a civil marriage license? Just because YOUR religion doesn't like it doesn't make it a nonreligious marriage.

Also note that it is NOT necessary for catholics to get an anullment or for jews to get a get in order to get a civil divorce. There are TWO independent types of marriage. Religious marriage can exist or be dissolved according to the rules of a particular religion, but it won't affect the civil marriage unless you file the paperwork. Likewise, you can file the paperwork for a civil marriage or divorce, but if you don't follow your religion's procedures and requirements, they won't recognise it - and you may be kicked out.

One more time: This debate is only on the subject of civil marriage. None of this affects religious marriage in any way. "Civil union" is not any more acceptable than any other "separate but equal" law, unless all other civil marriages are also renamed to the less "offensive" term.

Undertoad was raised by his mother, with no "official" father figure. If he had been raised by a lesbian couple, the only difference in his upbringing would be that the mothers were lesbians. In both cases there is no official father. I see no difference in male influence at all.

What you seem to be saying here is that you think it will promote homosexuality in children. Is that what you object to?

I hate to create another post for such a small point, but I thought I'd mention that gay men can have children. All that is needed is for said man to have sex with a woman.

Its interesting that so many people find loving gay relationships "repulsive". Maybe theyve never seen one. Strong and caring relationships give me hope. As the injustice and inequality becomes more visible, it will change. Society will demand it.

The separation of terms, marriage vs civil union...It is classic segregation tactic.
But I'll take the civil union if it affords a crack at equal rights. As fears subside, the hangup on terms will errode. Marriage is marriage. Families are families. Parents are parents. Home is home.

in realtion to children being brought up by 2 fathers, i dont see how this would be a huge problem. Its not like the gay couple who gain custody of the child will be performing explicit sexual acts in front of the child just because they are gay (straight parents dont)

I was raised by my father and became a daughter figure to a lot of his mates but i have had no female figure, being a female i wont say that some things were a little difficult to talk about, but nothing we couldnt overcome and eventually bring us closer. i have had little to no contact with my mother, and my dad has never remarried.

I feel like ive had the best upbringing i could ever have had, i'm the biggest daddies girl and i think im really well adjusted. I have great relationships with both males and females, and i have turned out just as girly as the ballerina next door did. i wouldnt change a thing. some of my friends, and friends mothers would express how worried they were about me when i was younger because i didnt have a mother around, but honestly, if you have NEVER had one around, you really dont notice at all. you adapt. it becomes NORMAL to you.

I'm proud to have been raised by my dad and his mates with no female intervention, and if i had of had even more dads, just as wonderful as mine is, then wouldn't that have been fantastic!! IMO anyway.
:D

Problem: a gay man having sex with a woman would be like you having sex with a guy.

¿Entiende?

Of course, there's always in vitro...