The Cellar - "Shoes Fly, Don't Bother Me" soundtrack to Bush's (R) latest visit to Iraq

The Cellar (http://cellar.org/index.php)

- Politics (http://cellar.org/forumdisplay.php?f=5)

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman (Post 594177)

Which is it? Rare or not rare?

Start with the first time I made the point and I think you know what I meant:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redux (Post 594126)

While we know it was the rare exception, rather than the rule, it happened and locals respond emotionally.

And no, you still cant FUCK ME.

I wouldn't fuck you with Tommy's dick. Sorry to disappoint you.

I think its comical how you guys just lost it completely at the end here.

I honestly thought that trying to understand the emotions (right or wrong) of some Iraqis might be helpful to understand the shoe throwing act and the later "rewards"......not justify it or condone it...but understand it.

IMO, its still important to understand that resentment, as long as we have one troop on the ground there...where they face potential backlash every day from the average Iraqi citizen who may have a grudge against the US.

Merc and Classic aren't interested in gathering greater understanding of them. Just as they aren't interested in gaining a grater understanding of why someone might choose to commit a crime. It's not such an unusual stance. Understanding requires empathy; which can easily be confused with agreement or justification.

Rapes by US soldiers (and by UK soldiers) have happened in Iraq. They happen in pretty much every conflict, why on earth would you think that US soldiers are unique?

Quote:

A former soldier received five consecutive life sentences today for his role in the rape and murder of an Iraqi teenager and the slaying of three of her family members.

What the defendant did was horrifying and inexcusable," US District Judge Thomas Russell said in sentencing to Steven Dale Green, 24, of Midland, Texas. "The court believes any lesser sentence would be insufficient."

A civilian jury in western Kentucky convicted Green in May of raping Abeer Qassim al-Janabi, conspiracy and multiple counts of murder.

Green shot and killed the teen's mother, father and sister, then became the third soldier to rape her before shooting her in the face. Her body was set on fire March 12, 2006, at their rural home outside Mahmoudiya, Iraq, about 20 miles south of Baghdad.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-1785694.html

Quote:

Detail of the content emerged from Major General Antonio Taguba, the former army officer who conducted an inquiry into the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq.

Allegations of rape and abuse were included in his 2004 report but the fact there were photographs was never revealed. He has now confirmed their existence in an interview with the Daily Telegraph.

The graphic nature of some of the images may explain the US President’s attempts to block the release of an estimated 2,000 photographs from prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan despite an earlier promise to allow them to be published.

Maj Gen Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.

“I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one and the consequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy, when we most need them, and British troops who are trying to build security in Afghanistan.

“The mere description of these pictures is horrendous enough, take my word for it.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...show-rape.html

I made light of it at the end of this weird exchange but at a deeper level, it is very troubling that there are folks out their with such unwillingness to acknowledge the less than honorable actions of our government (and of a very small number of military personnel) without casting aspersions on the patriotism of those who believe it is always in our best interest to be open and willing to discuss such actions and incidents.

And to further understand why there are many around the world who no longer hold us in such high standing.

We, the US and UK, are supposed to be leaders of the free world. Not just the governments, but the people as well. One can only wonder why some are so afraid to allow us to display our warts along with our empathy and compassion for others...and to demonstrate that we are just simple human beings like any other in the world.

To be fair, Redux, a lot of that comes from people who have an emotional investment in the forces.

To put it in a lighter context, I can get very defensive if people diss a show I have invested in emotionally:P Magnify that by a huge factor for people who've experienced the incredible unity and emotional connection that comes from serving in the forces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt (Post 594090)

Shoe thrower is about to be released to a hero's welcome. He's being showered with gifts, including a brand new house and brides.

So what do you get when you call the President a liar?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC (Post 594193)

Dana, I accept that and agree completely, particularly regarding other Cellar folks and their personal connection to the military, of which I know very little. Just as they know very little about my support for our men and women in uniform.

But there are many out there for whom it is an ideological war and to question their agenda or the actions of the government somehow makes one unpatriotic.

Oh, I don't doubt that for a second, Redux. But the thing about ideology is it's usually founded on a set of beliefs and assumptions which are central to the individual's sense of self. It goes deep. That's not to say some people haven't manipulated the landscape a little to make it difficult for people of a different set of beliefs to question/criticise the actions of a government/party/military action. But for most people, ideology is at least as much an emotional commitment as it is a political one.

I dont expect the ideological differences to end. It is the stridency of the "debate" and the venomous personal nature of attacks that, IMO, is a relatively new phenomena.

Or maybe I am just getting old.

*chuckles*

Maybe a little of both :P Times have changed. In many ways politics is less respectful, and less 'gentlemanly'. But I think it was always filthy behind the scenes. And people have always got very heated about politics. Look at the McCarthy era. Look at the ordinary, child-rearing, loving mothers and fathers who screamed hatred at the civil rights activists. Those weren't all 'bad' people. But they were reacting, at least in part from a fear that their society was going down the pan. We've now had several years of heightened sensitivity to the threat of terror and the 'islamist threat'. If people feel that their country and way of life is under threat then they are likely to react emotionally rather than seeking a deeper understanding: others wanting to seek a deeper undestanding become a part of the threat.

Not a reason to stop making the case of course.

McCarthy? Hey, I'm not that old!

I worked in the US Senate during the Reagan era and while there were significant ideological differences, there was civility.

Then again, we dont have anything like a weekly Prime Ministers Questions...but I want it!

I think the sheer availability of 24 hr a day news coverage may also be a factor.

McCarthy brought back memories.

Time for a personal story :)

My great uncle was a victim of McCarthyism. He has been recognized as probably the greatest harmonica player of the 20th century and spent much of his life in the UK, where he performed for the royal famiily and as a backup on a couple of Procol Harem tracks.

His bio in cartoon!
http://www.procolharum.com/99/larry_adler.htm

Ahhh....now I see why you hate America! :P