exactly. i grew up attending a baptist church. although it had issues, it was a good church with good people trying to follow new testament teachings. because of the asshatery of phelps and his ilk, "baptist" is a pretty big insult these days.

Yeah, I know that. I wasn't accusing 'America' or 'Americans' of arrogance. I was accusing Urbane Guerilla of arrogance in thinking that his Nation is somehow uniquely placed to resolve the world's ills and bring about enlightenment. I fully realise that his view is not shared by the majority of sane Americans and that he, in reality, speaks for nobody but himself. I was meeting him at his model. He keeps telling me America's cause is humanity's cause and I say he is an arrogant fool for believing that.

Fair enough. I may have over reacted to your comments. My bad.

Thats true from what I've heard. The most anti-war people I know don't protest because they just see it as a way to feel good about yourself and not actually change something.

The anti-war people turn to the Marine base because the president, vice-president and the nominee for the Republican party are not listening.

Protesting to the president wouldn't do anything anyways. It is still going to accomplish nothing besides making one feel good about oneself. There is not enough will to create a mass protest that could do something and these protests aren't going to open anyone's eyes about the issue.

I find it ironic that the marines die to give them the right to bitch err protest, yet they choose to protest the very people that gave them that right to protest.

When was the last time a marine died protecting our rights?
oh yeah, thats right, the 18th century. maaaaaybe 1945, if you count japan as threatening our rights.

that said, while I (for the most part) don't support military action in any situation that doesnt involve specific risk of invasion, and certain humanitarian/peacekeeping missions (and since what someone may view as a peacekeeping mission would be an invasion and occupation to someone else...), I harbor absolutely no animosity to the actual members of the military (the top brass, maybe not so much, but thats just me hating authority), coming from a military family myself and being very familiar with many, many military families and servicemembers.

Hate the organization, not the people... just like you should for any other group, movement, organization you dnt agree with.

Ibby, I have so much to say to that, but I think it will be said and taken much better by Reg Joe or Merc. All I can say is you have absolutely no perspective.

I do not believe, in the slightest, that any of our overseas involvement ever (except, like i said, maybe japan) has been in defense of my or any other american's freedom. Sure, maybe 1812, spanish-american wars... but they were on home soil, not overseas. Thats not to say there weren't good reasons for them - taking on germany in WWII, n. korea in the fifties, both of those were fairly okay - but certainly not lately by any means. Meanwhile, the military is the only organization completely free, legally speaking, to discriminate by gender, sexuality, any prettymuch whatever other factor they wish, as well as the only organization in the united states that completely deprives its members of their rights (effectively turning almost all rights into privileges, and since they can arrest you for disobeying an order and can order you to do anything that isnt illegal)...

but mostly i don't believe the argument that theyre 'defending our freedoms' because every single immediate threat i can see to my freedom is completely within the USA. Theocrats, neocons, right-wing hate groups... all actively trying to take away my rights, or keep me from gaining them. You can't say the same about anyone else in the world. Just cause fundamentalists and extremists and communists want to take away my rights, in a broad eventual sense, theyre not actively doing so. Theyre all a lot more occupied at home, for one thing.

Gee I wonder why? Lemme think on that a bit.

Its not our military, as anything but a deterrent. Which once more brings us back around to, i'm against the idea of using the military except in cases of actual invasion. Reduce it to a national guard force, not an international police force (or, alternatively, armed gang).
They arent doing it for the same reason we aren't forcibly making china a democracy. Its a pipe dream, a fantasy, not a realistic short-term goal.

and how exactly did our military become a deterrent?

Who was the last nation to invade switzerland?
oh, thats right, nobody.
whos the last person they invaded?
oh, thats right, nobody.

Wow. Classicman do you really believe there's an external threat to your way of life right now? Do you believe your freedoms are under threat from an external enemy?

That's scary. That's really scary.