Yeah, I think that's part of my success. :blush:

that's key. my dad taught me that very specifically when I was learning. Especially true on a motorcycle. I look into other people's side mirrors and try to tell if they're paying attention too. Also, in traffic, don't look at the car in front of you... look at the one in front if it.

I agree; awareness is key. Pay attention! But you still need to check!

Local dealer called and said they are getting a Juke -- one -- tomorrow and would I like to come look at it "before it sells."

Yes. yes I would! Don't know what color/trim, but I can't wait to see the damn thing in person. Seems like it's going to be a pretty hot item, so may have to wait awhile for a decent selection and deal. Met with my Credit Union loan officer today in a pre-pre-approval interview, and I think I'm good to go! (crossing my fingers)

Saw a juke in the flesh today and got a chance to drive it! Really a perfect car for me. They are trickling into dealers slowly. Will have to wait to get the exact one I want. (black or white SL w AWD and red interior trim)

You go girl... :D

I'm pretty amazed at the crap things people are doing with their car loans in general. I'm guilty of this also--in 2001 I bought a new car with my crappy credit and got a subprime 18% loan. With interest, I ended up paying twice the amount of the car. Now I know better.

Even on forums where people are supposedly trying to improve their financial situations, I see people buying too much car (if credit is bad, why are people buying $40K cars?); putting down the absolutely minimum down payment, thus putting themselves underwater immediately, having to buy gap insurance, leasing a car which never lets them have no monthly payments, trading in cars with underwater loans, thereby still paying interest on a car they don't even own. getting ridiculously long loan terms (why would you want to be making payments for six years, for crying out loud?) and focusing too much on monthly payments and not total amount owed. (But I got a sweet ride! and my payments are lower!).

I know I'm lucky in that I've managed to save a decent down payment., my car is not dying (even though it's 9 years old), and that I've managed to improve my credit scores and financial situation enough that I can probably get a decent loan, but I'm still left shaking my head at some of the things people will do to get wheels.

I have said this often. If one needs a loan to buy a car, he probably has no business buying that car. I will never understand why people borrow money to buy a car they have no business owning.

Because they need the car to get to work and earn the money to pay for the car, which beats sitting at home with no job and no money. Buying a new car is the way to get on the road with minimum cash, especially if you are mechanically challenged.

HA HA HA stop with he reality Bruce - those who live in their self-created alternate reality cannot understand.

Actually, I agree with tw on this. It makes a tremendous amount of sense to pay cash for a car. Better to be making payments into a savings account where you will have interest working FOR you than to be paying someone else and have even higher interest working AGAINST you. If that means making do with a shit car for years while you save up the cash to buy one outright, then so be it. This is coming from someone driving a 15 year old car. Not gonna buy another one until we have the money for it. And then when we do, we'll start saving for the next one right away.

Only way I'd buy a car with a loan is if the interest rate was 0%.

Define a "shit car" please.

I'm choosing to buy a new car rather than used, and a car that's a "step up" from my last one. But this makes sense to me, in my situation and my time of life. Keep the economy moving along, yeah. not saying that people shouldn't buy new cars, or get loans--just that people (me too!) need to be smarter about these things.

there are a lot of things I could be smarter about in my life, frankly

Unless you can do your own maintenance and repairs, you'll spend more than you would financing a car, unless you can get something reliable. You're not going to get something reliable for a couple hundred bucks, so unless you can get a family hand me down or something, you have to buy a car that's going to cost serious money, at least a few grand. You'll have trouble saving that without a job, and you'll have trouble borrowing that without a job, but you need a car to keep a job.

Now the best financing deals are on new cars, even 0% in some rare cases. That's why I think it's best to go with a new, reliable car, with a warranty, so you can save for what you really want.

The problem with many people is they over buy, only concerned with the monthly nut, not the total deal. Also trading up every year or two, getting deeper in the red with every move, just because as time passes they get more credit. It's a reflection of our times and our values, the same ones that caused this recession and being owned by walmart/China.

Cloud, we are not talking about you, or your situation, we've drifted into new territory.

Well put Bruce. I think there is a HUGE difference between buying a new Hyundai versus a new Hummer or Mercedes.

I think it's fine to get a loan to buy a car or a house or anything... as long as you have a true understanding of what the loan charges make the final price of your purchase and can afford that price in the time you have specified you will repay it.

Unfortunately this is not the case too often. "Trading Up" when you still owe on your previous car -for example- often does not fit this criteria. But then, let's look at who's pushing this idea...

But -to go completely off-topic- I don't think this is the worst scourge right now. I think cellphones are the new cars..... Own up -who's family cellphone plan is more than their car payment? and how often do you "upgrade"? Hmmmm

Yeah Cloud, I'm not talking about you. I'm confident you have your head screwed on right with this purchase. You've given it a lot of thought, and I think it's a good car you are looking at.

Classic, for me, a shit car is a car that is so old, it costs about a grand a year in repairs to keep running reliably. Even at a grand a year, it's still much cheaper than buying a new car. Once the body rusts out, then it's over, but until then, you can keep a car going for much cheaper than buying new.

Bruce, you're right. The hard part of what I'm talking about is getting that first car. I inherited my grandfather's car when I started out, and got a few years out of it. Enough time to buy my first real car with the money I had been saving.

The other option is to spend a couple grand on a car that will cost a grand a year to maintain. Many don't have the funds for that.

Yes, a home equity loan also makes no sense for same reasons. Rare exceptions may exist due to abnormal events. But we are not discussing the abnormal. We are discussing a majority who foolishly and repeatedly buy cars with loans.

Why would the exception need a car loan? To never waste money on car loans in the future. To get out of debt and never need a car loan in the future. An exception.

One can buy a Honda or Toyota for $4000. Why apply for a car loan for a $25,000 car (or a $41,000 Chevy Volt) when the owner can only afford $4000? Because he wants to pay more money for every future car?

Consumer Reports is full of inexpensive seven year old cars that are reliable.

Borrowing money to buy something that does not depreciate makes sense (ie a house). Borrowing money to create an income source makes sense (ie a business). Borrowing money to only remain in debt on something that loses value quickly makes little sense.

Why do so many have balances on credit cards? Same 'need'. Makes so sense. But then many (is it a majority?) also do that mistake.

Ironically (and this never made sense to me), many know this is illogical. And still do it. Why borrow money to almost double the cost of a product?

Once I got rid of a new Ford, I never put anywhere near a grand per year into any car. That even includes the Chevy that required a new timing belt every 40,000 miles (+/- 500 miles). Driving a car for 12 and 14 years has been routine.

Probably my biggest maintenance expense was new exhaust pipes (and then a cement truck took out that car). BTW, did you know insurance will reimburse for recently replaced parts?

A grand a year? I wish. I've put over $2000 into my (college student) daughter's "shit car" just in the last few months. It cost about $4000 when she bought it a couple years ago. (without my consult)
If I look at the numbers now, I think I would have been better off spending more and getting a loan for a better car. There would have been far less worry about her safety. The "shit car" is now breaking down more frequently and needs more repair than she can afford. The money saved for the newer car has already been spent on repairing the "shit car."
Conversely, I could have had and planned in advance for a fixed payment instead of having the "shit car" breakdown and/or need repairs at inopportune times where it requires large sums of money on hand to fix it.

The grand a year is an average. You might put 2 grand in one year, and just have to do oil changes the next. You also have to be intelligent about it and not buy a Pinto, for example.

And monster, nice try with the attempt to go way off topic on cell phones. You're absolutely right, or course, but that's too far of topic.

I don't know that it's realistic to require everyone to pay cash for a car. Most people do not have 25K they can slap down, even if they save for years. Especially since i think it's more important and essential to have an emergency fund of a few months' expenses. With that you can walk away from a job if you need to ("fuck you money") save yourself from being homeless, pay insurance deductibles and medical expenses if you're injured, etc. That should be everyone's first saving goal. You don't want to spend your entire wad on the car.

Unfortunately, in most places in the US, a car is a necessity. I know I went without one for 5 years, taking the bus to work everyday in 100 degree heat in the summers--absolutely miserable! I finally bought a car through a windfall. I'm better prepared now, thank FSM.

In addition, not everyone can handle the stress of dealing with "shit cars." I'm terrible at car stuff, as you guys know. I freak out whenever my car's in the shop or unavailable. I live alone. Having an up to date, safe, and reasonably reliable vehicle is a requirement.

I hear you, glatt. I was giving my experience. FWIW - I've owned a grand total of 1 new car in my entire life. I will never do that again without money to burn. (which will be never, given my new life situation)

I can still see where it is basically impossible for some/many to buy a car outright without a loan. Too many do NOT have the discipline to force themselves to save that monthly amount either. I'm not saying its right, just that it is.

And I think monster is more right than not. For example, I know of a family that spends over $600 a month on their cell phones and a couple hundred more on their TV/internet. They have the latest phones all the time and even their youngest kids <10yrs old have phones.
Yes, between phones internet and tv, they spend about $1000 a month.
They are losing their home. The foreclosure should take place mid December.

Oh, there is no requirement, and there never should be. I'm just talking about what makes sense in a perfect world. Every situation is going to be different, and everyone is going to have different priorities.

That is the point. One should be saving for many years so as to slap down $25K.

The emergency fund is not a bank account. The emergency fund is credit cards. Just another reason why no one should ever have a balance on their cards. Otherwise they have even spent their 'emergency fund'.

If one does not save that $25K for a new car, then the new car ends up costing closer to $40K. And that one remains a debtor his entire life. I have friends who love this. Therefore they do little work. And reap serious incomes from so many who never learn how to save that $25K over many years.

We can all appreciate your experience with a 'shit' car. But in your case, it was not the car. It was a mechanic who could not think for himself - kept replacing a perfectly good computer rather than the obviously defective valve.

I do have an advantage. I learned in the early 70s by not just fixing the cars. But learning why failures happen and how to make sure my mechanic has basic intelligence. Your bad experience was directly traceable to a mechanic who did not know how to think. Not due to the car.

One solution to a bad mechanic - never have a car that fails. Therefore start in places like Consumer Reports.

Absolutely, positively NOT! Credit is great to have in an emergency, but not as your sole resource. Plus, you need to have some extra cash for periodic and expected expenses that are not emergencies; vet bills, new tires, gifts. Why pay interest on this stuff? I'm sorry, but I don't think that's a wise strategy.

furthermore, you cannot expect to get credit cards if you pay cash for everything. It's a screwed up system, but that's the way it is.

http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2010/...mergency-fund/

One does not pay interest on those daily, weekly, and monthly expenses. Vet bills, tires, new exhaust system, etc are normal expenses also paid for in cash (or in less than 30 days on a credit card). One must meet those expenses while saving $25K for a car. Those are not emergencies. Those are normal obligations that everyone must meet while also saving money for a new car.

Emergency fund of last resort is credit cards. Other emergency funds may also exist - investments. Which is why some investments must not be locked in - must be liquid.

One who is meeting his financial obligations meets those daily obligations while also saving $25K for the next car. Anyone who cannot pay for a car is simply paying for the car twice - and will always remain a debtor. Those people need car loans due personal financial mismanagement.

Exact same problem with credit card balances. If one cannot pay for it, then one did not need it. Or it is an 'emergency of last resort' meaning that all other luxuries - a deli sandwich for lunch - are no longer permitted.

Brown bagger – the guy who does not want to spend $50K for a $25K car.

I suspect that most people need to buy their first car on credit. You need a car as soon as you start work and probably don't have the cash to buy even a clunker.

But if you buy a decent car and don't extend the loan payment out forever, then you should be able to buy your second car for cash - if you've been putting the same money into savings once the loan has been paid off.

that's the best way--in theory. Has anyone here actually done that? I'm pretty proud of myself that I've managed to save up nearly 50% down in cash.

The $300 brake job is not an emergency. That is a normal expense in life. We just don't know which normal surprise will happen. But we know a $300 surprise will often pop up - normally. Because I never have car loans, I now have cash for those other routine obligations.

Looks like I will be spending $hundreds soon to fly to a funeral. Also not an emergency. Just another daily obligation. Some days, life costs $10 a day. Other days, it costs $hundreds. And none of those expenses are an emergency.

Meanwhile, I also must be saving $25K for the next car while meeting all those other obligations.

A credit card is an excellent emergency fund. A second function: it also replaces checks and money clips. But only if paid off in 30 days. It not paid in 30 days, the expense must be a real emergency. A $300 brake failure is a routine obligation in life. We don't know which surprise will happen but we know these surprised will occur routinely - another normal obligation.

I have very few (if any) friends who have car loans. What Pete has posted is what most everyone I know did.

Saving 50% for the next car is a good start. Then the car after that is paid for without any car loans. The car after that is easily bought AND your have another $25K of spare cash. Maybe it takes longer. But the ultimate goal is to always buy a card without any loans. Some can do it on the next car. For others, it may take two cars. But to have money means owning cars without car loans.

well, you have richer/smarter friends than I do I guess. I'll be satisfied with an arrangement where I start out not upside down in the first place, get a low interest rate, a short loan term, and am able to pay it off as quick as I can.

Yup. When I was young I read in Consumer Reports that the best way to get the most for your money with a car was to buy a good one new, and then run the wheels off it. So that's what Mrs. Z and I did. Every car after the first has been bought for with cash.

Cloud battles the Cartels.

yep; I like the donut one better tho!

are you a cop?

no. I'm a Valkyrie.

Do you use/need a center armrest?
 

Interesting debate among prospective Juke owners about the center armrest. The lack of one, that is. Some are ruling the vehicle out because of it, I'm left scratching my head, because I never even use mine unless I'm on a long trip.

After some thought, I realized:

--80% of my driving is within town, not on the highway
--I'm right handed, and live in the States where the wheel is on the left side
--My right hand is either gripping the wheel at the top (12 o'clock); or gripping in a more relaxed hold on the center spoke of the steering wheel (3:00)
--Therefore, I'm not resting my right hand or arm off the wheel
--if anything, I'm resting my left elbow on the door, while my right hand does most of the steering work
--My present car is an automatic (so don't need my right hand down by the gear shaft)

so it's not really an issue for me. Maybe if I had a long highway commute it would be. Would the lack of a center armrest put you off?

I don't use it, except to hold papers and shit. If you find out later you wish you had one, you can add an aftermarket item. But it sounds like you wouldn't use it anyway.

I use mine as an armrest on long trips and, like Bruce, to put crap in. I'd prefer one, but I don't know what other storage options there are. It certainly isn't that big a deal to me.

I think it completely depends on the angle of the seat. In Mr. Clod's compact car, I don't have one and don't need one. My arms are fairly bent and held upward a bit to be on the steering wheel. But in the minivan, the steering wheel is lower, and farther away, as is typical for a larger vehicle. My arms are held almost straight out. In the minivan I can't drive without the armrest.

I use the center armrest in my Avalanche all the time, but I have long arms and usually need to rest my elbows on something to prevent fatigue. Also, I store all kinds of stuff in it, from drinks to cell phone to my notebook and pen and crap like that.

The Avalanche isn't designed too well with regards to cupholders, no ashtray (I quit smoking anyway), no keyway on the passenger door or tailgate (cheapskates!), no power receptacles in the backseat or rear cargo area and generally poor dashboard layout. I still like it though.

I agree with clobble.


If the seat is upright, like in a cube or a juke, you may not notice it not having an armrest. In the Altima, where you're pretty well reclined, it would be really weird if it didn't have one.

Many neat features in one car become distressingly obvious once the 'new' car had been driven a while.

For example, there must be someplace to properly rest the left foot. New Pontiac became a problem after many days because there was no left foot support.

How headlights are turned on in Chevy's would always get me confused. Headlights and highbeam flashing must all be on one control.

How a radio is setup. That Pontiac had so many buttons. Could not find the volume control without taking my eyes off the road and searching radio buttons. Same for station selection - not the preset controls - how to tune any frequency. At night, I would just keep pushing buttons until something worked.

A C300 Series Mercedes drove me crazy. Everytime when signaling a turn, instead that lever activated cruise control. Recently was asking a new Mercedes owner (her previous car was a Volvo 60 series) what she did not like. Exact same thing. She also kept turning on that cruise control because it was located to be confused with turn signals.

A light to focus on a paper (or map) before you? Often the newer dome light can be too dim. A map reading light that so many do not notice until that one dark night.

Adjustable steering wheel so that you can see every light on the dashboard.

Can you find the window switch (or handle) without taking eyes of the road? Or one problem I so hated in one of those Pontiacs. It would lock all doors as soon as the car started moving (which I did not want). Door unlock switch was buried up front on the door behind the dash board. Could not be seen. Had to go feeling for the switch.

Dash board up so high as to obstruct vision of items in front of the front bumper. A problem often found in cars with lowest performance engines (ie V8s).

Rear window visibility obstructed. Well, Volvos even have a dashboard switch so that rear seat headrests drop down. A kludge solution to a bad body design.

Tinted windows - or how to get into crashes because other drivers could not see your eyes.

Put the car in neutral. Without using brakes, how does the car come to a stop. Only better cars will roll to a stop so gentle that you cannot feel when wheels actually stop spinning.

Superior cars have engines so quiet that sometimes you do not know if the engine is running. With the engine running, try to start it. Only better cars will not engage the starter motor if the car is already running.

If a stick, then get moving without ever touching the accelerator petal. How easy determines quality and performance of the drive train.

Close each door only with your pinky. Superior cars that end up costing less money and last longer will close with less push from that little finger. One of the worst cars in this category was a Jaguar.

Some simple tests to categorize any new car.

the Jukes are few on the ground so far, and most of the ones in so far are not the ones I want. So I "ordered" the specific car I want from my closest dealer. No deposit, no obligation, but it's in my name--and obviously no chance of big discounts or incentives either. But, I'm still happy if I get the exact car I want by the end of the year. (supposed to come in December).

A top level trim Juke SL CVT/AWD, white, with black leather seats and red interior trim. ooooooh! (pic from HonestJohn so it European plates)

Congratulations! :)

not counting my chickens yet though!

no, but you made the decision and went for it.

Crazy question, I know, but what's the listed gas mileage?

depends on the drivetrain, but EPA city 25/hwy 30. it's a turbo, so takes premium fuel tho

We'll probably be looking for an AWD vehicle of some sort to replace my wife's Subaru within the next year or so. That get's about 26 mpg, so it's in the same range.

It looks very good in white, good choice. :thumb:

headlights from hell!

Did you get the rear roof spoiler? I saw that today and it looks cool.

well on the one I pseudo-ordered, yes I did. I sorta got talked into it, so I'm glad you think it looks good.

Why spend $400 on something that has no purpose, obstructs vision, and says the owner is so easily manipuated as to ... well I also remember fashion designers said guys should wear four inch platform shoes.

Everytime I see a spoiler, I see someone who can be manipulated even by Karl Rove.

yeah, but you're a wanker with zero social skills, so who gives a fuck what you see? No disrespect, of course....

Perhaps. But I haven't spent a dime yet, and am under no obligation to buy from these people. You want to see what I WON'T spend any money on, and what I told them I wouldn't even consider? I'm aware the spoiler is non-functional, but this crap? $2000 worth! (shakes head)

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y10...b/b345d5d7.jpg

ADM stands for Additional Dealer Markup

no shit.


and tw.... the spoiler makes the car look better esthetically.... and therefore serves a purpose. when you sell this car, it will have more eyeball, and hence more value.

it also gives you something else to tie your Christmas tree off to.

That won't fly with tw's Mr Spock routine. :haha:

the back end of this car is kind of squashed, in comparison with the front, so I think the spoiler gives it a more balanced look. I'm quite capable of refusing if I didn't want it. I wouldn't say it's functional in an aerodynamic sense, because I strongly doubt it.