You've said you thought it through thoroughly and spent a lot of time getting to the point you did in order to ask for the commitment of marriage.

Apparently, she did not put the same effort into her answer.

I think, if I were you, that I would have very serious doubts about a future with this person, even IF she were to change her mind (once again). :headshake


Stormie

dis, I think no matter who you talk to, they'll have scars. I really don't think the people here are anything out of the ordinary.

What makes me think you're probably not going to get lucky and have her running back to you is simply that you seem to be in different places emotionally, and regardless of whether she's the right one for you or not, it's obviously the wrong time for her. I'm not really of the mind that there's someone else. I think there could be many reasons for her not being ready to commit to you, and maybe it'd be nice if she would share those reasons, but it doesn't seem like she's about to so far.

You never know what might happen, but how could you trust what she says in the future after the way she's treated you now? Do you think she'll ever be ready?

I think that's what people have been trying to say.

I know if I'd met my husband even just a few months before I did, we'd never have ended up married because I just wasn't ready then. It can happen like that.

aliantha: It's a salient point, but I started this thread the night after I last saw her and we're at just over the two week point now. The rush to "Yup, she's over you/you should move on" started within hours.

It's not like I sat stewing on this for six months first.

Maybe I'll be more amiable to joining the "move on" crowd at the one month marker.

Fair enough. I think it's fine to give yourself and her some time anyway. From my honest point of view, I think if you ask someone to marry you and they're not ready for it, they probably never will be. I only say this because I think that when you meet that person who's right for you, you just know it almost from the start even if you do take time to actually go through the formalities.

I hope that makes sense. I'll leave you to it now. I think you're doing well. I'm still sorry things didn't work out how you wanted them to. You seem like a really nice man. For what it's worth, she must be crazy not to see that.

dis, why did you post originally? did you want guidance or sympathy? You asked for guidance -we came through. If you just wanted sympathy, you shoud've said....

It is over, you know it now. You surely didn't expect the cellar to sugar-coat that?

And thus is the nature of my hope, right or wrong, it seemed like we were both on track for marriage from a very early state. The more we talked about it and the more we let all those external doubts in, the more complicated it got.

I chose not to mention that she'd turned to her family a few months back, and they piled on all sorts or religious material (catholic, mostly) to get her...er..."prepared"?, and so in January when she said "Hey, it's really important to me that we be chaste from now on until we get married", I said "Ok, I don't understand it, but I'll respect it" (Seriously, I'm supposed to say "Hey, you don't get a say in that.")

I'm having to sort that all out in my head. Various friends, associates and cronies have expressed some shock that I didn't walk away from the relationship then, but I thought I was doing the right thing, and her insistence that we were preparing ourselves through her ritual was part of what made it so easy to blind myself to any negatives.

Granted, significant midstream religious change has already been added to my list of future warning signs, but I had this mountain of "Yeah, this is clear to both of us." which got held back by a sudden "Um...well....let's wait", and then it felt like the tidal wave was back on...of course it was easy to think we'd passed a minor obstacle and were back on track. And as I told Tiki at least a few times in this thread, I really got blinded by that. Avalanche, avalanche, small ridge, avalanche....we broke through some wall to fall off some cliff.

So yeah, I'm having a really hard time with this, and while some of the crowd might be right that she's stringing me along for her convenience, I just want to hang on to it for a bit longer. Because this wasn't a vetting process like some interview. Because this wasn't me trying to trick her into long-term commitment.

I'm a little lost and confused and right now I can't see whether or not leaving a door open or moving on is the best thing to do.

I'm glad that everyone here has offered their opinions. It's well appreciated, even if I've not been agreeable to all of them, and even if I'm still searching for a little more clarity.

monster: I'm just looking for any voice that can help me make sense of this at this point. More guidance than sympathy, I'm just saying the guidance has been largely one-sided. Maybe that means something, maybe I've not given enough background information, I don't know.

That's more common than you would think and I don't think it's necessarily a red flag, because I've seen it happen several times and after the wedding they just reverted back to their old selves.

I could even be she got cold feet, not about you, but the prospect of the religious aspect her family heaped on the wedding.

well, I guess, in fairness, I didn't really specify much when I said "rough patch". Maybe that'll color things a bit? Maybe it'll give some fodder to tell me I'm blind.

Couple months into the relationship: Some offhand word's got her convinced I'm looking to part ways. I admit to her that I'd been thinking more about a lifetime together. She tells me I should wait at least until the one year mark. Ok, then.

One year mark comes around. She gets a bit tossed during our anniversary date. I take her home and go back to my place. Next morning she shows up early freaked out about how I'm taking that.

A month or so later I figure I'd been asking lots of people about marriage, but not talking much with her about it, and it dawns on me that it'd effect her more than anyone else, so we have a serious conversation.

January hits and she hits me with the "let's be chaste"

March comes along, we go out to dinner for her friend's birthday. Some guy is hitting on her. I'm uncomfortable, but amongst all her friends, decide that she can stand up for herself and I'll not be the loudmouthed jerk. On the drive home, she indicates I chose wrong. Day later, we're talking and I ask if it bugged her so much, why did she keep talking to the guy? Argument.

Don't talk much for the rest of the week. Meet up that weekend, talk some things out. Marriage is mentioned again in passing.

Things get better, for a time.

Stupid arguments start becoming more frequent. She doesn't come over to my place anymore, citing the chastity thing and "temptation"

Serious conversations happening all the time now. She finally tells me that she doesn't want to go on the weekend away that we'd been planning as "THE WEEKEND", says it was like we'd broken up a few weeks ago and were just dealing with the aftermath. I tell her "What if we take the pressure off the table and just have a nice weekend away?"

Suddenly things are like the best of times again. I get stupid. I'm on the phone with my friends every day trying to figure out what to do. All pieces of advice sound good. Freak out thinking that I should just go through with it and stop whining so much.

And here we are.

That'll probably reinforce some opinions that it's time to move on. It's just hard for me to see that right now. Maybe I missed something. Maybe it's some dumb test to see if I can give her her space. I just don't know.

I don't like to get to involved in relationship reading. Wtf am I to know about successful/unsuccessful relationships, right? But, I have to say, my hackles rise reading this one. She sounds either confused (run, run for the hills) or a games player (run even faster). Dis, I don't know you. And no matter what you type here, there is no way you can ever fully explicate what went on, not in this medium. So, please forgive me if this out of line:

You deserve better than this. She has played (consciously, or unconsciously) on your emotional state in an extremely controlling way. You got it wrong at the party? Sounds like you assessed that she was amongst friends and could handle herself. If she was having difficulty with the guy she coulld have easily moved across to where you were in the room full of people. You failed a test, clearly. Tests are like that. They're testing. Do you really want to live under constant testing? Perhaps she wanted you to be jealous? Well, jealousy feels awful. Why would she want you to feel awful? Perhaps she wanted your protection. But, from what? Must you always be on guard for non-dangerous threats which might provoke this need? The end result, whatever the nature of the test, is that the person being tested is regulating their behaviour and responses to accord with the other person's plan. A party is supposed to be a pleasant and relaxing thing. Convivial and fun. Not an assault course or an examination.

The onus on you to fall in with changing expectations is not fair. Nor is it conducive to an emotionally equal relationship. It is, unfortunately, the basis of a lot of relationships. At some point the person being tested has to make a choice. Either they dig in their heels and say, this is who I am; these are my natural and instinctive responses, take it or leave it....or they must alter who they are and establish new patterns and responses in line with the other person's expectations.

Be careful with yourself Dis. Be wary of giving up yourself in order to gain someone who will absorb you. You are worth more than that.

I've already voted game player, but I'm willing to consider batshit insane. Batshit religious insanity is still batshit insanity.

Physical intimacy forges a tighter emotional bond. Lack of it tears a couple apart. To suggest you should not be intimate is a deep betrayal to the relationship.

It also suggests that she is not capable of serious intimacy. It's not that she's not that into you -- she's not that into anybody.

How is her relationship with her father?

Very good reply Dana, you should delve into this stuff more often..

Dis - One piece of information I haven't seen. How old are you guys? From your last two posts she seems emotionally immature, but then again, I'm an old fart.

Post #6.

thanks Bruce. I missed that. Seems about right. She is not mature enough. I know some people her age who are more into partying and that whole scene. Could be she just isn't ready to settle down, afraid of the totality and finality of marriage, getting overwhelmed by the thoughts of marriage/house/kids..... The influence of her family and their religious views/customs/expectations...
All that being said. I'd still walk. She seems to be jerkin your chain.

Lemme put it this way. Focus on you and your life and what you enjoy and all that for a bit. Just get in tune with "you."

This is much more clear than a "rough patch" to me. When you wrote you had a rough patch it could have ranged from anything from "I beat her" to "we both had the flu and it made us ornery" to "Working out cold feet"

What you are describing is a recipe for failure. I know. I know. I am coming off as one of the many nay sayers in this group, but I'll clarify:

Why I understand the request for chastity was based on some deeply held religious beliefs, and, most likely, a healthy dose of guilt, it strikes me as a very bad idea. I agree that physical intimacy creates bonds hard to describe or quantify. A brief break from sex in a relationship can stoke a fire or make things more exciting. But I think a long break from intimacy when intimacy was previously had just causes tension, confusion and in the end eliminates one of the main bonding activities a couple engage in, with frequency.

I am going to be generous and assume her desire to pursue this path with you was of pure intention, with the intent to make your eventual nuptuals more "special". It was probably not meant to be a game or a tactic.

But in the end I suspect this change created a mounting wall of tensions that could not be dispelled and probably hurt way more than it helped.

I also suspect that this girl is insanely confused and incapable, at the moment, of really knowing what she wants and believes.
She is a romantic, as well, from what you describe, which can beautiful, but also can create difficult and volatile situations.

I guess what I am trying to say is: You need to take a long long time to say goodbye. This will be true whether she provides perfect closure or never speaks to you again. I am of the mind that this girl, while possibly right for you in some ways, is not ready for commitment in any way. That being said, I am also of the mind that this probably will not pan out the way you wish it to.
But that doesn't mean, 2 weeks after the end, you have to be ready to move on. Ofcourse you aren't. Hold tight, process on your own, if you can afford it, maybe see a relationship therapist on your own to process your feelings so that you can move on to your next relationship with less baggage, or in the event this pans out in some way, work with her in ways that provide clarity and avoid this outcome again.

My final thought is also this: when you posted your initial posts things were too fresh. I suspect you were looking for absolution and a certain level of reassurance that you had done all you could and that she might come back to you.

Nothing is ever as cut and dried as that.

So here is my version of that, as this situation is still super fresh.
You acted like a human being in love with someone who had mounting levels of confusion presenting. You wanted to believe that if she saw how good you were together (on your weekend, which seemed to be going well) that realization would overpower her intense confusion and make her ready for marriage, but it didn't.

I think, very simply, it wowed her with it's romance (did I mention she was romantic) but once that overwhelming moment was gone, it also made her finally realize how very not ready for marriage she was.

I'd like to believe that this understanding, coupled with the realization that you were very ready, was probably the impetus to break it off, ultimately. That while she might have felt betrayed or blindsighted, what she really felt was shock and fear that she was involved with someone she loved but would continuously hurt if she stayed involved with them.

There.

It's because we all forget. Everyone can look back in their lives and see their own scars, and see how your situation is similar. We all forget just how blinding and hard it was to be in the situation at the time, so the advice given may come off as callous and too cut-and-dried. But even if everyone gave their advice as gently as possible, it wouldn't change the content of it.

Look at it this way: it's not that all of us want to crush all your hopes and dreams--it's that no one here has ever had an experience like yours that went on to become a successful and happy marriage. Like, if someone asked for advice over whether or not to date a coworker, a good number of people would say, "oh HELL no, that's a terrible idea," but at least a few would pipe up and say, "Hey, it worked for me and my spouse, happily married now for X years." Each of us is only providing advice based on what we've experienced in our individual lives. And if no one in a board with thousands of mature, rational adults has ever had a positive anecdote of this nature to encourage you with... well, that's the trend you're trying to interpret, isn't it?

Clodfobble, daff0dil: I hear that. Already it's getting hard to process the good times in light of the wounds (scars to come, I'm sure.) I'm supposed to keep waiting here, for what? Urgh...maybe I don't like that line of thinking just yet. But it's been made clear to me that I'm supposed to do something. What that is, not so clear. She was always very forceful about how she wasn't into tests. "The relationship is the test.", she'd say. The longer the strife went on, the more it felt like her admonitions to that regard weren't sitting right. It might not have been "a test", but it sure came across as one.

So now, I don't have the answers, I'm somewhere between feeling like that stupid kid in class that realizes the test was real and should've been paying closer attention, and some hazy idea of "Wait a second, why the hell am I being tested at all?" There's probably a third (or more) option, but I know I already failed one of her big tests: During one of the serious conversations, she asked if I believed her that she'd never test me, and I wasn't able to give a clear and honest answer. (This failure of certainty was brought up again at a later serious conversation.)

Tonight's new idea is "Holy $#!^, I've ended up in the same relationship again. Someone that's still not quite sure if they could live their life this way, and will (sooner, this time) get busy in the interest of reinventing themselves! Crap!" I'll have to examine that a bit. I'm still reacting to that idea right now. (This isn't sour grapes, but on the surface, there's something that doesn't sit well with someone who on our first date pointed to a building and said "On that roof is the strangest place I ever had sex!" or "Oh, I had counted wrong, you're actually my 21st!"....and then later deciding chastity suited herself better religiously. It's like I got walked into (or caused, who knows) the last day of her "Catholic Girls Gone Bad" period.

Undertoad: Her relationship with her father is crap. I can't blame her for that, as my relationship with my father is crap, but I can see how that doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. I will say that in the latter days, she was more and more upset whenever I'd become exasperated with my father.

All: Thank you all for the replies. I've kind of monopolized the section for the past couple weeks, and I appreciate the input, even if I'm still a little lost. I'm going to go reread the thread myself to see what today's perspective on things changes what any of you had said prior.

As for the last test, I don't know. Am I supposed to pursue her and win her back? Am I supposed to give her the space that she wants? I don't know, but if she was right that "The relationship is the test", then what's it say that she was ready to walk away first?

As was said before, the one who loves least controls the relationship. Truth, there. But if she's in control and I'm supposed to act next, then Undertoad (and others) are right that she's nothing but playing games.

I'm sure I'll be bugging you all with my loneliness and screwed up self-confidence soon enough, but I'm having a harder and harder time seeing that there's anything left to wait for.

My reading : Test: say you believe me when I say I will never test you.

If my reading is correct, there is NO POSSIBLE way to answer this without calling her a liar. In fact, the very question shows she is, frankly, nuts. It looks like manipulation for the power thrill, putting you in an impossible situation to watch you twist desperately to find a way of answering without either lying or hurting her.


No problem, we need things to talk about, if we'd got bored we would have just stopped posting. It's your thread. (except the drift bits, but you get that).

I actually dropped past to post, maybe the reason she said she "couldn't marry you" was due to family pressure to marry someone of the "right" religion. But, reading more, I doubt that.
And anyway, the more I read, the more I think you've dodged a major bullet. More of a white phosphorus grenade really, this one would burn for years if it got in any deeper.

Dr Zengum (a notorious quack, BTW) recommends you delete her number from your phone, remove all traces of her from your home, spend a month or two resolutely single, then with luck, hook up with some other woman - maybe some previous ex-girlfriend, or some new acquaintance - for a quick fling.

If you find yourself wondering about How Things Might Have Been, read Big Sarge's update thread. I reckon you have got off lightly.

She = Fail.

You are seeing the light now. Good sign. continue.
There isn't, the truth is slowly seeping in...another good sign.

Hang in there - it gets better.

Whoa. ZenGum already covered this better than I can, but that's just not right. Not only did she test you, but she brings it up at future dates to rub your nose in it?

Well count me as pop psychologist #423, but her relationship with her father is the basis for her relationship with all men until she has a good bit of life behind her (and maybe not even then)

If she has a loving caring dad, who plays with her and hugs her and is happy for her, she has normal healthy relationships. If there was a lot of chaos in her house, then she will be inclined to create chaos where there is none. If dad beats her, she may become sullen and withdrawn. If dad beats mom, she may become angry with all men. If dad sexually abuses her, she may become a stripper. If dad emotionally abuses her, she may become bulimic, or a "cutter". And so on.

If dad is loving at Christmas, but shitty the rest of the time, maybe she becomes that testing person, wondering whether there is love and endlessly testing for it.

She doesn't even know she's doing it, because it's "normal" for her.

That is no way to live...in fact, it's horrible. It's not love, and it's not respect.

I take back that she just couldn't let you down easily. ;)

Listen to what you hear, here. A lifetime of reliving every little thing you've done or said "wrong" isn't what you want or need. It's not for anyone. Been there, done that...after time it really messes you up.

Yeh really - look at all of us.

OR a promiscuous drug abuser! don't forget that one!

That explains a lot.

Or if Dad is loving and caring, but stepdad is an emotioally abusive dick, she may spend her early relationships in constant terror that the seemingly loving, caring boyfriend in front of her will suddenly turn out to be an abusive dick in disguise, and will shield herself accordingly.

You know, hypothetically speaking.

Part of me wants to move forward, part of me thinks there's still something to hold on to.

Her "give me more time and have a little patience" thing tells me either she thinks I'll eventually forget to call (or more precisely, putting it off until some later point at her convenience), wants to see how long I'd stick around, or wants to keep me around for some reason. The last one sounds the closest to positive, and even it doesn't sound that good.

So now I've got to figure out how to move on. I've just got this itchy sense that it's not terribly noble to let go yet.

...or she wants to keep you around as insurance (plan B) just in case studly do-right doesn't fall for her BS like you did.

classicman: yeah, I was kind of alluding to that possibility (even if it's some future studly do-right) as the last reason.

I'm a little mixed up right now. Many signs point to "Just let go already so you can mourn and heal!" and I can't tell if my reluctance is born of doing the right thing, or playing the martyr.

Nobility has no place in this. Now is the time to foster self-preservation.

Hey dis, are you a pack-rat by nature? a hoarder? I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just curious...

Used to be...after the previous relationship went south and I found myself carrying armfuls of crap out to the dumpster, I've been a lot more selective about how much stuff I keep around.

Why do you ask?

because I'm a packrat type and way back when I was dating I found the clean break thing hard

I think this is less me being sentimental and more being a romantic sap. It's hard to let go after spending so much time soul-searching trying to figure out if she was the right one.

But, I've got creeping thoughts around the periphery like "You sure it's not because you hope she comes back and you can be happy so you don't have to take all those dating risks again?"

dis, I think if you have to do soul searching to figure out if she's the right one, maybe she's not.

Of course, this is coming from someone who was engaged twice before being married on the third go. lol

I was the one kid in elementary school whose parents were divorced. It was something I grew up with and a central theme to a lot of my early life. So I told myself "If I'm going to go down that road, I'm going to do it right, and hopefully only once."

So in that context, I thought serious consideration was necessary first, and I don't think it's that much of a symptom for the way this one went down. (Though maybe a symptom of my greater sense of being screwed-up in relationships in general.)

heheheee, I'm a packrat because I'm lazy and I hate anything domestic-like. :p

Seriously, I still have boxes of crap at my ex-h's house. Eh...it'll keep. When I die it will be a veritable treasure trove of college papers, pictures, cookbooks (double HA)...put it all in a time capsule and let the people of the future know that we didn't have a Rosie the Robot to clean up after our dumbasses!

ssssshhhhh. people will cotton on it's my undomesticity rather than eccentricity -I think I currently still have them fooled. a little.

lol. We musthave been separated at birth.

So dis...how're things going for you now?

I've not heard anything from her.

I'm currently working on the "Grand Unified Theory of WTF? What Happened", and I think my current working model is this:

Her parents' relationship is screwed up. Her mother dealt with it by being super-religious, her father dealt with it by starting a different family. Even though she's getting close to 30, her longest romantic relationship before this one was six months. As much as she's got herself convinced that she understands everything, I'm of the mind that there's some things you just can't read from books, you've got to live them.

Not that I'm any sort of expert, but it's one thing to read about love and another to experience it.

So the big theory right now is this: She didn't understand how the relationship would change once she broached the idea of being chaste. So while I was thinking we were working towards one thing, I became "just a friend" in her mind. So faced with the solidity of a proposal, she freaks out thinking about being committed to "just a friend", and retreats. Her primary source of advice being her mother (who hasn't really had much in the way of adult relationships outside of being committed to her religious belief) and her divorced friends, I'm sure it's been tilted towards not actually communicating.

But I don't know, not having heard anything, I'm filling in with speculation.

For me, I started the countdown clock. I'm going to be a weird guy for a bit, and maybe at the end of the summer I'll think about dating again. It's a good time for me to clean my own house.

-dis

Well hang in there dis. Sounds like you're doing ok, and that's good.

Maybe you could try redecorating.

zengun: clearly, because I need to find ways to be more repellent towards other people =)

Yeah, not exactly a chick-magnet babe-lair, is it?

Au contraire, what you need is a harem. :haha:

Hey, dis! I'll be thinking of you.
(When you're finished at your place, do you want to come over and clean up mine (nothing improper here, just cleaning on offer!).
Be good to yourself!

Be well Dis. Time will take you far from this.

I think the silence is deafening actually. She is saying an awful lot by not saying anything. If she really cared would she leave you hanging in some sort of sick limbo like this for all this time? Would she let you dangle there knowing how you feel?
I think she is clearly saying that she doesn't care enough to cut you loose and allow you to heal and move on.
Thats what I hear, but as my tag line says...
"Hey, my views aren't popular, they're just mine."

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think you're the only one she's stringing along. Been there. Been done like that. Learned fairly quickly. A one lesson course, so to speak. Graduated at the head of my class.

Lucky you. She must have found some other guy willing to let her drag him face down through the mud.

For some girls, that's their idea of a relationship.

beestie, capnhowdy: I guess that's what's changing in me. Not so much a "Gosh, I hope she hasn't found some other guy", but a "I hope I learn from this, whatever it was."

We all hope so too. Life is too short to go thru that shit twice.

She sounds broken. Don't waste anymore time or energy thinking about what went wrong. Put your energy into fixin yourself and get back out there.
Trust me I am a doctor.

So I was sitting at a coffeehouse this morning reading a book, looked up and saw an attractive lady in a sundress walk by. So I smiled at her and thought of this place.

A brief update:

I bought a bicycle a couple weeks ago and have been riding like a fiend. 30 miles this weekend alone. I figure I've spent enough of my life sitting on the couch, plus it gives me time to think and an outlet for all the emotional crap that's been stirring. Besides, what's the worst that can happen, I get in shape?

I've not heard from the ex, nor have I tried talking to her. I'm moving on with my life.

Thanks to all of you for the words.

-dis

Good move Dis.

Good for you, dis. You'll do just fine.


Thanks for the update.

Yep. You got it now. Good luck. Keep us posted.

post a picture of yourself