They don't make Manchurian Candidates the way they used to. :(

HA HA HA HA HA @ TGRR

They also, it seems, do not make loudmouth republican rednecks the way they used to.

Are they outsourcing, or something?

The 2% Illusion
Take everything they earn, and it still won't be enough.

Meanwhile, reality: the rich had so many exemptions as to pay equal or less taxes then the average American. Warren Buffet was quite blunt about this years ago when wackos were promoting tax cut myths and lies. Buffet was paying less in taxes than his receptionist. Such facts get lost when partisans promote their political agendas rather than first learn the facts.

Nobody who is honest can criticize Obama. Nobody has facts to justify all this criticism. The 36% ownership of Citigroup may have been necessary because wackos in Citigroup will not do what must happen. Citigroup probably must be broken up and sold off. Therefore no decent Americans lose jobs. Irresponsible top management and stock holders who failed to demand changes all lose.

Is that Obama's intent? Nobody knows which again demonstrates the foolishness of those partisan inspired criticisms. A person dealing in facts does not yet have sufficient facts to justify that hate and so much criticism.

We do know one fact. Tax cuts without spending reductions only create short term economic improvement followed by worse economic downturns. Eliminting those destructive tax cuts are necessary to restore actual productivity (and responsiblity) to the economy.

We'll know by second quarter next year.

Shit, we'll be eating bankers and congressmen by then.

At least I will be, anyway.

ummm, don't we need someone overseeing those things? they are going to be really big things to get passed, and very important (IMO) for the future of this country. I am really opposed to "czars" in general, but that is just a name. Someone needs to be heading those things, don't you think?

Isn't he just putting the taxes back to where they during the Clinton years? And you know, when Clinton raised taxes, there was all this whining by the right about how it would wreck the country. In fact, we had a pretty great economy under Clinton, and he even balanced the budget, even though, he too, inherited a deficit that, at that time, was the highest in history. One thing that did surprise me though, was the thing about charity write-offs.

And you know, if the richest people/corporations had not been so corrupt about trying not to pay ANY friggin' taxes, this might not be happening. They really only have themselves to blame. It is greed. "I have a hundred million dollars, but I don't want to pay taxes, I want to keep it all. Fuck the person making 30 grand a year and trying to live off of that. Why is he my responsibility? Even though I did make my money on the backs of people like that."

:D I like what Bill Maher said.

"And, finally, New Rule: Stop pretending that other governments have nothing to teach us. From those socialists in Sweden, we can learn how to fix a banking crisis. And from our friends in China, we can learn how to punish the jerks who caused it.

You know, the ones who took bailout money and bought private jets made out of rubies and veal. This is Dick Fuld of Lehman Brothers. [slide of Fuld] What a "dick" Fuld. He personally made $500 million in sub-prime mortgages, and he gets to keep it while you and I pay off his bad bets. [slide of Madoff] This is Bernie Madoff. Bernie stole $50 billion, mostly from other Jews. For Jews, this was the worst pyramid scheme since the actual pyramids.

Which brings me back to China. Now, a couple months ago, some greedy businessmen in China were caught spiking the milk they sold to children with melamine, a plastic-derivative which boosted the protein levels and, thus, their profits. Well, you know what the Chinese are doing to the businessmen behind their milk scandal? They're putting them to death.

Talk about lactose intolerant.

Now, am I saying we should treat the bankers who poisoned our financial markets with tainted investments the way China treated its poisoners? Please, we're not China. We're just owned by China. So, no, I don't think we should put all the bankers to death.

Just two. I mean, maybe it's not technically legal, but, let's look at the upside. If we killed two random, rich, greedy pigs. I mean, killed. Like, blew them up at halftime at next year's Super Bowl. Or left them hanging on the big board at the New York Stock Exchange. You know, as a warning, with their balls in their mouth. I think it would really make everyone else sit up and take notice.

This crisis is rooted in greed. And if two deaths shocked a society of 300 million into acting decently enough to avoid this in the future, well, they'd die as heroes. And, you know, it's not like collateral damage isn't built into our assessment of things.

Cars kill almost 50,000 people a year, but we accept that as a fair price for being able to get around without riding on top of an animal.

So, two dead bankers really starts to look like a bargain. And isn't that what they love? Bargains?"

Do you honestly think a lot of those people report all their income? They have it hidden offshore. It's not like they get a W2 like working people do.

Down girl - I just post links to articles that I thought would lead to some interesting conversations. Actually, I don't know what income the writer was referring to - do you?
If what he says is true, then a tax increase on the next group is all but guaranteed to happen.

The article says taxable income, which means reported income minus legal loopholes, deductions, and dodges, of which there are considerable if you don't need that money for awhile.

Well there you have it then. Thanks xoB.

Which is why the ONLY fair way to tax people is the flat tax. Taxes would be paid on a percentage basis, right on the spot. Nearly impossible not to pay your share.
Imagine the revenue that would be created from hidden drug monies, cash labor payments, etc. Even the crack dealers would be taxed. And fairly, at that.

:rolleyes:

Do you honestly think that individual contractors and small business owners report all of their income? I know three people who are good friends who make well over $70 a year and report only $30. In this economy it is even easier to report a loss and get further tax breaks. If all the people who ran a cash business reported their income and let it be taxed we wouldn't need to raise taxes. You have a hang up with socio-economic classes.

Anecdotes aren't evidence.

You have any presentable evidence to demonstrate that small contractors cheat on their taxes at the same rate that the "2%" do?

Excellent. So we'll have a permanent lower class.

Woot!

Translation: No argument.

No. Translation: Same ole rant without a lot of merit.

If it was anyone else I'd ask you to elaborate. However I'll spare myself the pain of your bitter life extensions today.

Plus I doubt you could get it on one line.:headshake

60%:

http://archive.gao.gov/d26t7/139722.pdf

http://www.treas.gov/tigta/auditrepo...0130132es.html

I wonder how much I could save if I didn't report 30-50% of my income?:rolleyes:

That differs from now how?

Obama's plan does nothing to change that. Well until he truely goes Socialist on us. I wouldn't put it past any of them.

pssssstttt......

We always have and always will have a permanent lower class.
Some people just refuse to rise above it.

Okay. I'll bear in mind from now on that you can't support your argument beyond whatever is on the front page of ronpaul.org.

Now, the poor just deal with low wages. With a flat tax, the percentage tax required to run the country would have to be high enough to run the middle class into the working class, the working class into the lower class, and the lower class right under the nearest bridge.

A flat tax benefits only the rich, and they have enough benefits already.

What makes you think he'll go socialist? So far, he's just more Bush, with better speaking talent.

Of course. That's why the mode income is $20k/year, and that's why you're a billionaire with 3 lear jets, that still somehow can't find anything better to do than post on the internet.

Am I right, Horatio Alger? Tell me when I lose the plot. You're one of those successful self-employed, self-made men that started off so poor you lived in a sanitary landfill, but hard work has made you the rich man you are today? Like every other laissez faire proponent on the internet?

No.
I am the motherfucker that risked my life to earn your freedom to sit on your sorry ass and attempt to agitate others on the internet.
Take a look at yourself, asswipe.
And meanwhile....... Fuck off!

Yes, because you're the only person that ever served. Quit your fucking sniveling. There's nothing more pathetic than someone who thinks their service = an argument. Drink water and drive on...or more likely, get back behind that typewriter.

TGRR,
Served when you were a naughty thought, kid.

Serve what?
Big Macs and fries?

I usually avoid this thread because most of the people who post here have so much more knowledge about this topic than I.
Maybe you should consider this option. But you won't because the internet is the only place you can argue without someone like me kicking your ass.
Face it, man these guys are eating your ass for breakfast at regular intervals and it pisses you off. It won't get better. These guys just keep getting smarter. This is obvious to everyone in the Cellar. Except you. Pussy.

:lol:

You should do something about that rage problem of yours, junior.

Damn. We agree on something.

I would disagree with that.

Okay.

My reasoning is that spending will never go down (if you can show me a time in our history where the actual amount of real spending dropped, I'd be interested in seeing it). If you set the rate so everyone pays the same percentage, the rich pay less taxes, and everyone else gets raped to death.

Well my reasoning is that if you eliminate the loop holes and deductions for everyone, regardless of how much you make or how little you make, the rich pay the same percentage of their income as the middle class, and the poor. Everyone benefits. The rich pay more taxes now and they will pay more taxes under a flat tax than anyone who makes less than them.

Also, taxes would be collected from drug dealers, prostitutes, scam artists, cash only 'contractors', etc.
Usually, the more you make the more you spend. With the flat tax, if you want to decrease your taxes, slow down on your spending.
The reason the crack /drug dealers can afford their Escalades w/22's is all their income is tax free. The flat tax is the only way to ensure that everyone pays their share.
Almost anyone can find loopholes in todays tax system to hide their income, But we should all be smart enough to know that an unemployed person can't afford the things I see lots of the 'system bums' have.
Also, this would banish the need for the IRS. It's a win/win situation.... unless of course you are an undesirable as mentioned above. IMO, these taxes should be omitted for food and utilities and other 'necessary' living expenses. Call it socialist if you want, but capnhowdy is tired of supporting derelicts. If you can spend it, obviously you've got it.

Pours another scotch and contemplates buying my fourth leer. Nah.....

With all the talk of decreasing the deductions for charitables we are going to probably put more of our income in pre-tax retirement. We gave over $8k last year to charity. That will have to stop.

Okay. What percentage are we talking about, here?

Sadly correct. But maybe with all the added tax dollars created by forcing the skaters to pay their share the guvmitt could afford to bump the charities to offset the decline... just a thought.
And by not having to fund the IRS, a good leader could divert these funds to support "worthy' causes. The reason it will prolly never fly is because the people who make the laws are some of the biggest spenders/cheaters, and they won't build their own gallows.

I don't have a clear figure, but something around 15-18% sounds reasonable. More would be to punishing on those at the low end of income earners. And 15% of a gross income of a million would be more than those at the top end pay now.

There would have to something different set up for the business side. I have looked at the "Fair Tax" plan and there is a lot of really good ideas in there. Only it will never happen. So I will have to go back to finding ways to make my money work for me.

Really? That's kind of surprising. Can you back that up?

Can you post anything but a goddam request for data? WTF are you trying to "back up"? C'mon man... don't be a dick.

And why should anyone need to "back up" their opinion?

Any recovery that does not create further recession will appear typically many years later. Once we eliminate the salesmen, honest statements based in study of other recessions define economic recover in more like four years.

Salesman (ie stock brokers) are promoting a turn around in a year or less. They are promoting sales - not honesty. The economy has been harmed so badly for almost a decade. Time for everyone to pay for a decade of welfare to the rich. This is how economics takes revenge for wealth created by money games.

How would you propose to accomplish that? Voluntary disclosure?

I found his statement to be a bit of a stretch. However, I do not KNOW this, so I asked him to back his argument. Since he posted the claim, the burden of proof is on him. Debate 101.

Now, hush. Adults are talking.

He didn't express it as an opinion. He offered a statement of fact.

Every time you buy something, you pay a flat rate sales tax. No disclosure. You got it, you spend it, you pay the tax. You don't have it, you can't spend it, you don't pay the tax. There's nowhere to hide. This is my opinion, Bruce. Like I said in the posts you must have skipped, It will prolly never fly but I think it would be fair.

Oh, got ya. You're not talking about a flat tax, you're talking about a sales tax. Sorry, I misunderstood you.

No prob. I need to stay outa this thread anyway.

And tggr ... you can have it asshole. You're trolling and you know it. You attack me and everybody else on this thread. I refuse to lower myself to your level. If you wanna troll, I'm not gonna feed you.

Um, yes. Your outburst at me for disagreeing with you, alongside your "I served. Your argument is invalid.", and then followed with your hollering at me about how I post with others constitutes trolling on MY part.

:eyebrow:

Duh. That goes without saying. Of course people don't report all their income. If people making only 70k/year are doing it, imagine how much people are doing it who make a lot more.

And I am not the one with the hangup. I just want people who make a lot of money to pay what they should be paying. They don't. You just admitted that people you know don't report all their income. You said you don't care about taxes being raised because you will hide most of your money. So how is it I'm the one with the hangup? If you're really doing that, how is that fair? It isn't.

Jesus Christ. yea, blame poor people for being poor. Read some Jonathan Kozol, please.

But I can't hide my money. It goes through a bank, which along with my employers report my income on W-2's and 1099's. I can only shield my income from further taxation by maximizing my legal pre-tax deductions and taking every other deduction I can legally take. What is not fair is that I pay for people who don't pay taxes, while 42% of my income goes to the government. Where is the incentive? The incentive under these taxation programs is to be poor and let the government pay for your needs.

The whole point is that billions are lost to people who do not report income. I cannot do that.

You won't last long here with that opinion. Everyone here wants you to back up what you say. Sometimes it can be a little annoying, but I understand why people do it.

Name one, ONE waitress who claims all her tips, or pizza delivery guy... or the furniture delivery guy or the postman who gets $10 or $20 bucks for Christmas. How bout the Deli that takes cash only? The guy you buy your christmas tree from.... C'mon are you serious? :right:
Wrong is wrong.
Kthxbai

lol - Don't be speakin' for me there, snap crackle sugarpop.
Hey Cap'n - Happy 5th YEAR anniversary?

Our nation is broke because waitresses don't declare their tips?