Interesting read. I value a truth that can be logically validated above a desired ideal, i.e. political correctness. We are taught that all people are equal. That is a stupid concept.

I've been told, from someone who worked extensively with Saudis in the circa 1980s oil business, that they never consider a signed contract to be the final word. If they want to change things at the drop of a hat, it doesn't matter what your previous arrangement was.

The blog you've linked to explains a little more about why that is. Footnote: Does anyone cringe at my use of the word "they" as a generalization? Sorry, we can't function in the real world without stereotypes, which exist for a reason.

And ultimately, that is how our brains are designed. We are estimation machines.

I suspect and hope that I am digging a hole here that someone will take exception with.

This section and the corollary following it were the most illuminating to me. There have probably been any number of graduate papers written on the cultural effects on the slave-owners from living in a slave state--but if there aren't, there ought to be.

There have been quite a few historical studies looking into the effects of slave ownership on American slave owners in the Ante-bellum South.



[eta] There are other aspects to Arab culture and different variations on those themes. I have a good friend who spent several years as a VSO worker in a few different places. I also have some friends who are regular visitors to the West Bank. The idea that they don't view obligations as running both ways does not correllate in anyway with anything that any of those friends have reported back. Far from it. What comes through from their anecdotes is a complicated network of mutual obligations and a cultural leaning towards individual and familial generosity: not at all unusual for a family in the West Bank to offer what little hospitality they can and the last or best of what they have to these western visitors. It was the same in the Sudan when my friend Les was there in the late 80s.

If you read the blog linked to here, they cover all that; and it is mutually exclusive from the subject of honoring agreements.

ahhh agreements, as in contractual obligations? Rather than obligations in a more general sense...sorry, I misunderstood UT's post.

I personally witnessed the obligation-as-oneway-street phenomenon during my time in Saudi.

So, basically, what we're saying here is... the Ferengi?

Actually that was very interesting. More so than I had expected.

No double standard here? Why isn't the press looking into her past to see how many abortions she had or whether or not her children are really her own?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...onY5QD95JUK4G0

The real boss moves in. :lol2:

Mrs. Robinson in da house... boom, shhseesh, boom, da la, boom, shhseesh, boom boom...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...9_obama10.html

This is a good one, Neil smokes em..

IS THERE A BETTER IDEA? YOU BET!
By Neal Boortz @ January 9, 2009 9:16 AM Permalink | Comments (16) | TrackBacks (0)
So we now have the benefit of PEBO's* general position on a plan to stimulate our economy. Government shall be our savior. We shall not want. More specifically, government spending. About $800 billion (probably more) will be created out of thin air and then spent by politicians and their cronies in an effort to get our economy moving. PEBO has decided that our economy can be stimulated by purchasing computers for teachers and building windmills.
Obama's stimulus plan is very little more than a plan to enhance and solidify the power of the Imperial Federal Government over our economy at the expense of the private sector and free markets.

Is there a better idea out there? You bet there is, and it came from the 1st Congressional District of Texas. We've talked about this great idea several times on the show ... and after Obama's speech its time to bring it up again.

Texas Congressmen Louie Gohmert notes that the federal government collects about $100 billion in income taxes every month, plus another $60 billion in Social Security and Medicare taxes. If those of you who are government educated have a calculator handy, you'll see that this adds up to about $160 billion a month. Now if you divide Obama's proposed $800 billion stimulus plan by $160 billion, you'll come up with five. This means that our government will collect $800 billion in income and payroll taxes from February through June of 2009.

So, Gohmert asks, instead of bureaucrats and politicians deciding how all of this money is going to be spent, why not let the people who actually worked for this cash make their own independent spending decisions for this money. How would you do that? Simple: declare a five-month tax holiday. From February through June everybody keeps their paycheck. No income tax withholding ... no payroll taxes. No income or payroll taxes owed. What will the people do with this money? What, are you crazy? They'll spend it, that's what. And they'll spend it on the stuff that they want! Not the stuff Obama promised during his campaign. Talk about stimulating the economy!

Let's just wrap this up with a handy little chart. Politicians just love charts.

http://boortz.com/nealz_nuze/2009/01...a-you-bet.html

That is an interesting idea and to think I was one :lol2: from the ignore button. I'd appreciate it if you would try to improve your ratio.

I'm working on it, but there are a few out there that will just not get along, no matter what I say or because of it. That is the way of the Cellar I guess.

Because she's pro-choice, and isn't a scolding political "family values" moralizer. What issues could she be called out on for hypocrisy? Hard to say, since just about her only political "qualification" is her name. and the press is certainly calling her out on that.

Patterson doesn't appear to be buying into the Kennedy franchise. He has the only vote that counts.

Both Palin and Kennedy had a press pass for a little while, but then they started talking.

Can't argue with that.

I don't see that as a better idea. There are a few that are truly shaken by this recession and would pay off their debts, but the rest of the populace has already proven that any increase in income bids drunken sailor time. More spending by the public might slow the decline, but won't fix the system, just give the Chinese more money to buy US bonds. Plus I don't think his plan will help many of the out of work people that aren't paying taxes, as wild spending isn't going to create many jobs.

After that, our infrastructure still needs fixing, so that has to be addressed.
I just read today about PA; I fear other states are in the same boat.

For eight years we've been neglecting education and perverting science so badly it's going to take the feds to help getting that back on track. Granted I think the GM loan was a bad move, and Chrysler was a crime... yes crime, as in theft, fraud, string 'em up. But I still have hopes that Obama can get us moving in the right direction, so at least we don't drown swimming away from shore.

But basically the general public has to get their shit together and show some fiscal responsibility too. No you don't have to spend every cent you can beg, borrow and steal. No you don't need 8 credit cards maxed out. No you don't need a Jumbotron bigger than your house. I've rambled enough. :o

Ftw.

The good idea part is that the money will flow to whatever sectors of the economy the people value, hopefully avoiding the boom-bust of a massive temporary commitment by the Feds, which can lead to massive mis allocation of men and material. Middle-class folks can get their financial lives in order if they choose to.

There is a lot to be said for Obama's plan to improve infrastructure, but we do have to remember that the Democratic majority is temporary so the money spent needs to go into things of permanence that Republicans will complete or maintain. It is also possible to make the recession longer by hindering the natural flow of capital and manpower. At work, there is a lot of talk about Obama's comittment to early education, which I see as a good long-term investment. Unfortunately, relying on Federal dollars means that the comittment and the dollars can disappear on a whim leaving us with too many resources committed to things not presently in our bare-bones operation. I can see our organization going belly up if money leaves before mandates are reduced, which is standard Republican practice.

I agree that the education process needs investment but that will not turn us around economically in the short term. And a short term immediate fix is what we need to survive this current crisis.

Even the discussion of an infrastructure investment, rebuilding roads, broadband advancements, etc is not going to give us a short term fix. One of the biggest weaknesses I see is that the average worker is pretty lazy when it comes to manual labor, unlike the WPA programs that were all about manual labor and putting people to work. Not everyone will be able to participate in that program of work. The 50 year old line worker from a GM plant may not be so willing to grab a shovel and hit the road. Much of the infrastructure discussion is more of a feel good solution to make our daily lives better but I still don't see how that is going to jump start our economy. Growing the number of people who are on a government pay roll by 400,000 is not a solution.

The infrastructure investment is a great idea - it immediately creates jobs from the bottom to the top. Puts money - real money into the hands of working consumers who will consume goods and services from all areas of the economy. There is absolutely nothing bad about that. There will be supplemental jobs, probably many off them that will spin off from this.

Sounds like an interesting plan to me.

It just seems like such a small area of the economy I don't see how it is going to jump start us back on the road to economic recovery. How does any of that address the real estate issue, mortgage crisis, or banking issues?

PA has unique problems because foundations beneath their roads are significantly less than what New Jersey does. PA roads break down faster because of insufficient, or in some cases, no roadbed foundations. The interstate highway called Route 80 as an example of why PA must spend more money constantly fixing roads. Citing PA is a poor or worse case example.

Question of whether money spent is on the right things will always be a challenge. But here is the rub. The economic benefits from these capital projects does not appear for four years.

Economics is not solved by making jobs. Jobs are only a symptom. How to make more jobs? Do the same work with less people. So yes, the sound byte is “make more jobs by eliminating employees.” (An example of how soundbytes distort facts.) 'Reap the benefits' (make possible more jobs) occurs when the benefits appear on spread sheets mostly four and more years later.

Making jobs by only making work creates less jobs. Especially true in an economy that must have a lower American standard of living to be fixed. Economics takes revenge for unproductive ‘make jobs’ activities. The solution (to stop economics taking revenge) has traditionally been things we don't like to admit such as bankruptcies and higher interest rates.

One can appreciate the severe contradictions that Obama faces. This recession is directly traceable to what we were doing four and more years ago. There is no short term solution for that kind of problem other than to minimize its symptoms using many forms of welfare (ie government spending without corresponding tax increases).

Very interesting will be how these policies will 'fix' an economy that deserves a severe recession, lowering the nation’s living standards, and the resulting hard decisions. It will be very interesting to see how policies that contradict the lessons of history will somehow solve this problem.

Some are so foolish as to ignore the numbers - assume the economy will upturn in a year. That's not what numbers suggest. The numbers say we will be paying off the last decade of economic mismanagement for most of the next decade.

That also gives credence to European suggestions that the Euro may replace the dollar as the dollar once replaced the pound. No, I am not saying that will happen either despite the many who would jump to that conclusion. But we have a problem far more serious that many realize as the elite profited massively while leaving Enron accounting lies that are only just beginning to be discovered.

True it's only one area that needs to be addressed, but one I don't want to see kicked to the curb in the fray. I'm not sure the feds can solve the real estate/mortgage/banking mess beyond treating the symptoms and letting play out. I hope somebody much smarter than me (that's most everyone) can find a solution. :confused:

True, but maybe if people see some tangible effort to improve their infrastructure and services, they will perceive they can put some faith in the future and boost the economy.

First I was hearing a year and was very skeptical. Then I was hearing 3to4 years and was cautiously optimistic. But I think we have to face the probability that we may never regain the level we've been living at for the past decade.

I guess this is sort of what I was getting at. By Boortz:

http://boortz.com/nealz_nuze/2009/01...ansparent.html

There is no doubt that infrastructure has been neglected. After all, replacing something does not get the credit found in building something new. The question also remains what infrastructure must be abandoned with the lower living standards.

We know just making jobs does not solve problems. But then look at the wide ranging questions already being asked by Obama.

For example, virtually all earth environment science in NASA has been quashed. Some birds were ready to fly when killed. Obama is asking some embarrassing questions about the new (Orion?) spacecraft ((that is rumored to have Shuttle like development problems). Also asking about grounding of so much science (American spaceflight) to pay for a 'Man to Mars' boondoggle. IOW he is asking about restarting the tiny budgets where virtually all NASA science was once done - such as something like eight earth environmental science spacecraft. After all, that (innovation, discovery, science) is what created productive jobs. So yes, this man appears to be asking damning questions that would result in productive jobs.

The initial problem cannot be solved. Massive obstruction to science over most of the past decade will haunt us with jobs not created in the next decade. Jobs that would have been created in future years have already been lost due to the stifling of innovation over the past eight years. Nothing can fix that. Rather interesting is that Obama is discussing a revival of the American innovation pipeline. He is discussing obstructions to productive job creation.

Another example are the jobs and exports made possible should be address global warning and other problem with new innovative products and industries. All hyped in the 'green' soundbyte. The hybrid car being an example of products available only from America had government continued to force the anti-innovative automakers to market existing innovations. Stifled hybrids is example of jobs lost AND how it now takes so long to create productive jobs. Jobs cannot be created by stifled innovations.

In short, the damage is so deep that it will take the next decade to restore the innovation pipeline to normal capacity so that jobs are created many years later. Just another example of why this economic damage will take so many years to correct.

There is no one magic example. Cited above in as short as possible are one in a long list of reasons why we have a recession and how long it will take to fix a problem that only we created.

In TheMercenary's www.bootz.com political commentary is the perfect example of why we have been harming job creation this past decade. A perfect example of how jobs get created by doing what also destroys jobs. Eliminate a large bureaucracy with machines is why American companies generated so many jobs in the 1990s - and wealth, higher standards of living, more products, etc.

It has long been known that where industries did the equivalent, then those industries become world competitive. But instead, the political ostrich mentality is "is does not make jobs today so its money wasted". Jobs are best created by destroying jobs when we do more with less people. The resulting increased productivity always results in more jobs.

A medical information industry was only possible if standards exist. In software, Microsoft did that. In computers, wide ranging cross industry consortiums did that. In the auto industry(unfortunately) government standards were necessary to make that happen. Unfortunately that is also the problem in a medical industry where leadership is severely lacking. When the industry cannot create standards, government must. Why is a computerized medical record industry not destroying jobs? Apparently everyone who has tried to solve this problem is confronted with the same problem - no standards. Create standards and the medical record industry is another example of how productive jobs are created by eliminating unproductive jobs. Ironic as it sounds superficially, that is what we must do to halt a recession.

Having not done anything to address or even consider this records problem in the past 10 years, how many jobs were lost due to lower productivity - due to too many people manually doing that work. These is no magic solution that creates productive jobs this year or even next. It takes time for innovation to result in new jobs due to increased productivity. IOW that has remains stifled for most of the past decade. Maybe someone (Obama) will make that possible now. Or at least someone is actually considering a solution which is more than we can say for the past eight years. As usual, the productive jobs take years to create. There is no magic formula for creating productive jobs in the next two years. The time to have been addressing productive new jobs and industries was years ago. A recession necessary for years until innovation can show results.

The columist does not get it. Productive jobs are not created this year. He does not get it. Productive jobs come from innovations such as industry wide computerization that also destroys unproductive manual labor. And that takes years.

:lol2: Those are frigging funny. Thanks for the laugh zippy!

thats all I see when I read all this Bickering back and forth

I don't care about that, it was still funny. :D

Change! Yes We Can... ok, well maybe not.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=a3YMkstD3JzA

Whats your point there Merc? It seems like he is being up front about the situation. I for one, think thats refreshing.

Well I guess it is just as I said all along during the election. That when you talked with his most ardent supporters they would give you a long list of all these great things that he was promising the electorate. Most of us realize that many of the promises were nothing more than empty pandering to get votes, even if they had merit, it was obvious there was no way he could do everything he was telling people he could. And most of us know that it is how the game is played in this day and age. But many people are not informed as well as the members of The Cellar. It is just such a fimilar circle of our election cycle. Listen to the most recent comments coming from the Obama camp and many things are being taken off the table and even tax cuts are being offered up, a poison of the democratic platform. I just find it all so ironic.

And this was an interesting report as well:

Obama climate czar has socialist ties
Group sees 'global governance' as solution
Stephen Dinan

Until last week, Carol M. Browner, President-elect Barack Obama's pick as global warming czar, was listed as one of 14 leaders of a socialist group's Commission for a Sustainable World Society, which calls for "global governance" and says rich countries must shrink their economies to address climate change.

By Thursday, Mrs. Browner's name and biography had been removed from Socialist International's Web page, though a photo of her speaking June 30 to the group's congress in Greece was still available.

Socialist International, an umbrella group for many of the world's social democratic political parties such as Britain's Labor Party, says it supports socialism and is harshly critical of U.S. policies.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ocialist-ties/

Quick, hide! There's a red under your bed!

D or R - fixed that for ya.

Better dead than red! :D

or something like that they said during the McCarthy years.

Yea, that is why I said it was a familar fixture of our election cycles.

Then why was it ironic? It's more like business as usual, isn't it?

I was thinking about the overwhelming support for "Change, Yes We Can." when in fact there may be little change after all. Can't close Gitmo, Health Care (a big one) way on the back burner, raise taxes, etc. Just about everything that stood out on his platform in a big way. There were so many promises anyone should have seen it was all talk. But hey, he is not there yet so who knows. I am going to give him the benifit of the doubt.

Well maybe if things weren't so fucked up right now that wouldn't be the case - just maybe. We got a lot of cleaning up to do before we go forward with anything, don't you think?

Absolutely. I don't think anyone could have seen how bad things were going to be economically. I'm just afraid that the recovery will be so long we may never find out if anything could have been done or not.

George Stephanopoulos asked him this same question. As I remember it, "What parts of your campaign promises will you not keep" as if it is a given that some campaign pledges will be ignored. Obama, gave an answer that was not worth remembering.

Every presidential candidate promises change. Even Humphrey did it which Lyndon Johnson did not appreciate.

How much have things changed? Overall consensus in the American Economics Association in San Francisco, even from those who normally oppose government intervention, is that government fiscal policies must be aggressive even though some also acknowledge that quantitative proof that such policies work is almost non-existent.

A benchmark paper for the conference based upon 14 previous severe recessions including the last big five (Norway, Finland, Japan, and Sweden) suggest a GDP drop of 9% which takes two years to reach bottom. Unemployment averages 7% and keeps dropping for five years. Housing prices take five years to drop 36%. Government debt rises 86%. Scary part is that America has already surpassed some of these averaging numbers. However statistical variations for 'average' GDP and unemployment numbers are large.

When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that you came to drain the swamp.- Anon.

For the record (FTR? Oh goodie) I think Obama would serve the Republic well if he can't or doesn't deliver on any of the bread-and-circuses promises he made. I disdain them. They're not my idea of what a government should be doing, and one reason I'm a libertarian, despite anything radar could possibly say or think. At least until such time as radar understands and thinks libertarianism includes me. Fat chance, no?:rolleyes: