And during that 250 years, it's been the undemocracies starting the fights.

The Empire began as the Roman Republic fell away. Rome's fighting with the Etruscans is all pretty murky, as records of that era were almost totally lost. No telling who was more of a republic, a democracy, or a whatever, not for sure.

Oh those poor, abused dictators! How sad -- that it's necessary to lift their boots from humanity's collective neck!

I can't think of a single example of this in the last hundred years, and really, in the US case, only fights with Indian tribes (Indian being what Native Americans call other tribes, a usage that may as well be respected) in the century previous. One may cite the Confederate Constitution during 1861-65, I suppose -- but just how completely democratic was it? Slaveholding's still a big smirch.

I understand that history ALWAYS has its "yes, buts."

In the other pan of the balance, we have the not very democratic Serbians capping the Archduke Ferdinand of Austria-Hungary in 1914, we have the not very democratic Japan invading China in 1935 et sequelae, and the never to be mistaken for democratic Falangists taking Spain in 1936 and Nazi Germany's, and Italy's, declaration of war of December 11, 1941.

Examples so large and so generally distributed, pierce, ought really to be given their due.

We can't return to a habit we never had, Ibram. Look over the times before and after what was really a very brief period, very late in the era of modern empire building, pursued halfheartedly only, and soon abandoned. The Philippines aside, the largest land area involved was the Canal Zone -- and these were both temporary things. No, I think I could give a well supported argument against this extremely-imperialist theory, and make it persuasively too.

You could do the same, with some research with this in mind -- a sort of "see if I can prove or at least argue this" that would be somewhat different, I think, from what you're reading in high school texts these days. You see, there's never room to fit all the details in unless you're writing a shelf-full like Will and Ariel Durant. And even they could only fit in so much -- they had to prioritize, and they have a lot more detail on European history.

Heh. It is indeed a habit we never had if you look only at the times we didn't do it.

So, looking at Serbia at that time, and looking at Austria-Hungary, you have come to the conclusion that the Serbians were undemocratic and the Austro-Hungarians were?

We were Imperialists when it was fashionable, but in doing it because it was fashionable, we never got good at it.

Britain, France Spain, Portugal, Germany even the Scandinavian countries did it better. They all moved in and completely ingrained their character into the local mores and customs.
The US, on the other hand, treated these "possessions" like red headed step children. We didn't really make, or even accept, them as family.

Some American companies and individuals certainly exploited the natives, but in most cases, our interests were primarily Navel support, which made some natives pretty wealthy.

We meddled in their politics to the extent of protecting our interests, by controlling the national leaders and not be asked to leave. We didn't really try to sway the general public toward are system of democracy or teach them much of anything.
The local politics was left to it's own devices, as long as they weren't revolting against the national leaders.

Because of this failure in assimilate their society, when we left, they viewed us not like distant kin but more like former employers. :yelgreedy

Bruce, so what you're saying is we did just enough to get the help we needed, but still left the locals to decide whatever they wanted instead of going in and completely taking over a country and making them do whatever we wanted? Like we got the support we needed without destroying what individuality they had?

prettymuch, yes.

No. No one mistakes Austria-Hungary for a democracy.

The only people who think the US is not imperial are US citizens, and not even all of them think that.

I find that very interesting.

What's so wrong with being imperial? The British did it for some time. Don't you want to be like the British?

We are even more like the British now. We got David Beckham now.

lol...lucky you. Between him and his wife, I'm not sure which is worse. I don't think either of them can read yet.

She is waaayyyyy worse - at least he has am actual talent.

The most recent empires, those of the very undemocratic Soviets and the very undemocratic Communist Chinese, were more successful than I'd want any Communist to be at calling the U.S. names and making the world's naifs, fumblers, and fifth columnists (some in newspapers) believe it.

Consider the source, Aliantha -- I do. Then consider their converts, their shills. Perhaps they were too influenced by the despairing note struck by ex-commie Whittaker Chambers? Perhaps they were too taken in by the habit of thinking like a religion in thinking of communism? Garbage in, garbage out, isn't it?

Communism's got nothing to sell to humanity, and it should be humanity's business to reject it, even with Bombs. As in "The."

Sure, if communism is broken and cast upon the fire to be burned away from human political thought forever by peaceful means, I'm happy. If some part of it is torched by radioactive flame, the Rose of Sauron, I'm less happy -- nukes pollute -- but it's still acceptable to one who understands communism's horror. But no matter what, delenda est...

Anyway, what's this about David Beckham's literacy, or not-?

Yeah, we didn't want more territory or people to become part of our family. We just wanted to use their island to support our Navy, and supply materiels/labor that we would willingly pay for. Do what you want but don't interfere with out operations.

The fly in the ointment is Americans, being Americans, got involved with the natives on a personal basis. The lives of many of the natives and our military/support people got very intertwined and codependent. And you know, breaking up is hard to do. :blush:

I find it interesting that you feel qualified to speak for 6,225,170,264 people, especially when giving an off-the-wall and unsupported opinion. :p

The only people willing to indulge in random US bashing for fun are not from the US.

Is that a bad thing?? This sounds a hell of a lot better than the alternative.
Some things never change - Everyone else wants to bash the US, but answer me this - Who does EVERYONE call when they want something, need help, have a problem or a natural disaster strikes??? The US and we help every freakin one of them every freakin time!

mmmmm...... like you helped in Bhopal? or after the Exxon Valdiz?

Thats the face of American Imperialism that is so despised around the globe..... the 'anything for a dollar more' ethos that relegates human vaues to the accountants spread-sheet.

Just how am I or the United States of America responsible for Bhopal?

The Exxon Valdez was an accident by an individual working for a private corporation using world standard procedures to do the job. They also paid billions to clean up. But that said how does that reflect on me or the country.

You Brits have done as much as anyone to dirty the oceans, and killed a hell of a lot more Indians than any chemical company. :p

Perhaps we should take all the money and build a freakin wall around our shit and let the rest of the world deal with their own problems. Would that satisfy you?

What, are you Ghosbusters now?:p

Oh c'mon Dana you know the truth - we help every freakin body all the time. We are, BY FAR, the most generous nation on this planet - period. And I, for one, think a little appreciation would be nice once in awhile.

Well we were waiting by the big Ghostbusters phone on that whole Bosnia situation, but for some reason it never rang.

If you want us out of NATO just ask. The time is right.

Well you have been reading too much propaganda. By percent GNP, the US is way down the list of generous nations. I believe the champions were Scandinavian and France. Something like 80% of American aid only went to 5 countries last I read - Israel, Egypt, Greece, Turkey, and Phillippines. Last time I looked, Israel and Egypt accounted for 50% of US foreign aid. Where is all this generosity?

Then it gets worse. Much of the aid is military - thereby returning to the US as military contracts. Generous? Numbers I have seen repeatedly never say that. But myths are easy to promote - such as Saddams WMDs.

You have not met the Phelps family I see.

True, and when four hurricanes hit my house and the rest of FL I never saw other nations doing squat to help... but they sure like to bitch, all the while they use our technology, send their kids to school here, come here for meds and surgery, ask our military (that is so evil) to bail theirs out at every turn, etc, etc, etc...
If we are so evil, don't use our agricultural, pharmaceutical, medical, engineering, textile, military technology, don't come here for your education and heart surgery, don't use US dollars to save or invest, don't buy US goods, don't use US ships or military goods, don't ask us to protect you when the UN drags it's sweet ass or won't help you or our support in the UN, don't-don't-don't, because if we are the bad guys, you don't want any damn thing to do with us... so put-up or shut-up.
Bunch of spoiled-ass teenagers bitching up a storm until allowance time or they need to use the car time rolls around.
Then their ass is entitled... we need to take care of our own first, no one gets help who does not vote US interests in the UN and no one gets help until the US hungry and homeless gets taken care of first.
We need to pull out of the Middle East and let them have at it, remember, that is what the terrorists say they want. See how happy they will be when it really happens.

So who did respond to Liberia's call (a country created by Americans) when they recently needed from a military massacre? Not the US. So who rescued hundreds of Americans recently in Ivory Coast? Not the US. Why did the entire USS Lincoln task force sit nearby in Hong Kong for five days - never moved - as people were dying after a tsunami and after the world had been providing assistance? Who rescued so many Americans in Tehran when fanatics overran the US embassy? Whose army is so overtaxed due to so many humanitarian missions all over the world? Not the US. Who provided the Russians with necessary rescue equipment when their training submarine was trapped beneath the Pacific (as Americans argued for hours how to transport rescue equipment). Who had to be called to transport the USS Cole back to America for repair? And who paid for the rescue of Kuwait? Who bent over backwards to transport Seventh Corp to Saudi Arabia?

If you think only America does all these things, then your news sources sound too much like those liars over at Fox.

Again too much Fox News hyperbias. When Katrina hit New Orleans, the French, British, Mexican, and numerous Caribbean nations immediately offered assistance. Many had equipment immediately available that was desperately needed in New Orlean. The American government refused to permit any to help. Why did Fox News forget to mention that? Something about the pride of a president is more important than lives in New Orleans?

I don't remember mentioning Katrina. I wrote about the entirety of my state after my home was hit by four of five hurricanes, all of them fours or above and my state hit by five in just a couple of months.
Read much?

Gee tw, I tell you I don't listen to Rush and now your spouting about Fox - guess what? Wrong again, as usual. It seems you only hear what you want - anything negative towards the republicans you take as gospel. Can't you find any middle ground?

Fox... what a joke.

You called other nations shitbags because you did not see their help after trivial hurricanes in FL? Well, when America REALLY needed help, then others offered it. Help was rejected. Did you ask how many times such assistance from Bahamas was also rejected? Or did you automatically assume all other nations are scum until proven otherwise - the classic Fox News assumption?

Katrina demonstrates exactly why you did not see foreign assistance during 'normal' hurricanes. Why did you post nonsense – that I did not answer your question? Damning fact called Katrina even demonstrates why foreign assistance is not permitted in FL. Why do you forget those facts? Did you consult responsible news sources – or do you believe hate promoted by Limbaugh and Fox News?

Why would other nations be permitted to offer assistance when the mental midget would not even let them help in New Orleans? This question is never asked by the mental midget supporters who believe Fox News, CBN, or Limbaugh.

Shame on you for not immediately understanding the lessons of Katrina. Your post was answered brutally correct. Katrina demonstrates why you don’t see foreign assistance in FL. Only a disciple of Fox New hate would have promoted so much contempt for the countrymen of Billy and Sundae Girl.

5 trivial category 4 & 5 hurricanes you did not live through that were before Katrina, that you seem obsessed with?
It was never offered in FL.
Now I see why others say what they do about you.
Fox news, as screwed-up as it is, has nothing to do with it.

Well you nicely avoided questions that beg you to defend an indefensible posts. This is, Yesman065, what you do not reply to; what exposes that previous post as naive and hateful: Good Americans view foreigners as peers and allies. Extremists somehow believe only Americans do the good - due to Fox News, et al distortions. To those outside of America - yes the hate believe by a minority of Americans and George Jr supporters is that extreme. To them, you are second class people.

But then I should not have to be the ones posting this. Non-Americans should be asking Yesman065 why he has so much contempt for non-Americans.

Well, Yesman065: there were a long list of questions in that post that any informed American could answer? They were asked of you. Where are your answers? If you have so much contempt for non-Americans, then easily you can answer those questions. Show us how the nations of Billy, Sundae Girl, Cyclefrance, etc are so pathetic? Answer those questions in This Post.

The only category 5 hurricane to hit FL was Andrew. And the US government declared it was a nothing until that lady county commissioner in Homestead said to the press (five days later), "Send everything you have now. People will be dying in hours."

Other hurricanes were normal violent storms little different from what is ongoing with surprise ice and snow storms this past 30 days. List for me these four category hurricanes that required world wide aid like an Indian Ocean tsunami? Yes, rkzenrage. I have little tolerance for posts devoid of supporting facts and based in emotional perceptions. I don't care who anyone is. You post myths, I will challenge. If those hurricanes were so devastating in a state where hurricanes are normal, then list those four category five hurricanes? What were these storms that should have mobilized Chile and Italy to send assistance?

rkzenrage, you posted an excellent article in Point of No Return. That is the kind of discussion that earns respect. If foreigners are denying Americans what America also provided to the world, then your reasoning should be as convincing as that article on fisheries. That article summarizes questions I thought we were asking for years - for example how lobsters have long (I thought) selected for harvest. Nothing in that post is about personal bias or turns speculation into fact. It asks damning questions. That is what I have asked. Where are these four category 5 FL hurricanes?

I never said I had contempt for Non-Americans! EVER! Don't ever misquote me you shit! I'll repeat what I said in my earlier post - We are, BY FAR, the most generous nation on this planet - period. I never desparaged any other nation EVER! I don't need to defend myself - especially to you! You are the one who is spouting misinformation and outright lies, not I.

I don't need to list the amount of aid America has given to the rest of the world - or how many countries we aid ever year. What end does that serve? Oh, fuck it heres a lil tidbit for you:
"In 2004, the United States is providing some form of foreign assistance to about 150 countries. Israel and Egypt continue, as they have since the late 1970s, as the largest recipients, although Iraq, receiving over $20 billion for reconstruction activities since mid-2003. The importance of Latin America counter-narcotics efforts is also evident, with Bolivia, Peru, and more recently, Colombia, among the top U.S. aid recipients. The impact of the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001, and the subsequent use of foreign aid to support the war on terrorism is clearly seen in the country-aid allocations for FY2004. Afghanistan, Pakistan,Turkey, Jordan, and Indonesia are key partners in the war on terrorism."
Oh, and just for good measure - (Paraphrase)By nearly all measures, the amount of foreign aid provided by the United States hit an alltime
low in the mid1990s(end) - Who was President then????
Bill Clinton : 1993-2001
Now write a fuckin' retraction.

Well now we all know who is correct. In frustration, you are now posting disparaging words. No, you did not say you have contempt for non-Americans just like a 1950 southern did not say he had contempt of a negro. But the bottom line fact remains obvious in your post. You make this claim of generosity that is not proven by facts and numbers. And then you post it again without doing what a patriotic American does - get and learn those facts.

The five top 'American aid' recipients were before Iraq was 'liberated'. Currently no one really knows how much is going to Iraq since corruption is so widespread in this American government - no bid contracts being only the tip of what may be a massive iceberg.

Meanwhile, aid to S America, Africa, etc has always existed - and was trivial. Since we threw an expense probe at it, does the moon also end up on that aid list?

When the US government convened a world council to coordinate rebuilding of Iraq in 2004(?), the number was $40 billion. The world gasped. That was far more than the US provides as aid to all of Africa (except Egypt). So where is all this generous aid? When do you post numbers to support your claims? Last numbers I saw put Scandinavian countries and France high on the list - well above America. Why do you make the same questioned claim - and still not provide any numbers? Do you automatically know - not need to first learn facts? Only wacko left and right wing extremists do that. I am sure you would not want to be one of those. Clearly you are reassessing your claims by first consulting sources. Good. Now let’s see some numbers for this generosity.

Okay. First off the 'ghostbusters' jibe was just that, a friendly jibe. Second: what you are suggesting is that if other nations are soo pissed off with America then they shouldn't seek any help, equipment, trade, expertise etc from the States. That suggests that the world at large should accept all help, equipment, trade, expertise etc purely on America's terms. If we are accepting such help then we have no right to complain about America.

The thing is, America, like any global power (currently THE global power) gives a great deal to the world. America contributes a ridiculously high amount to scientific breakthroughs for example. America has the sheer weight and force to make a difference in innumerable conflicts. America has the wealth to make a hugh impact on a great many social and economic problems in the world.

But.....and this is a big but...just as one would expect of a global power, America acts primarily in its own interests. America does not sell its high-tech products and expertise to the world out of charity. America (the body politic, not the people) focuses much of its aid efforts on those nations which have something to offer in return, such as a political/cultural toehold in an area or to ensure the more desirable party wins out in cases of civil unrest. Just like any other global power throughout history, and I don't doubt for the remainder of human civilisation, America acts first and foremost in its own interests.

There's nothing wrong with that. It is the duty of every government to act in the best interests of its own nation. Sometimes the interests of that nation are best served, or believed to be best served, by actions which cause a great deal of good in the world. Conversely, sometimes the interests of that nation are best served, or believed to be best served, by actions which cause a great deal of harm. Sometimes another nation, or body of nations, seeks assistance from America and that assistance is deemed weighted enough along that scale of interests that help would best be
given. Conversely, sometimes another nation, or body of nations, seeks assistance from America and that assistance is deemed weighted enough in the other direction on that scale that help would best be denied.

There are times when America is approached for help by one side in a conflict, for aid against their enemy. There are times when America becomes aware of a conflict that holds sides that fit easily into America's own moral imperatives. In those cases, it is sometimes deemed useful, or right, to intervene. For one side of that conflict, America looks like a saviour....for the other side of that conflict, she looks very different.

America is acting no differently in this, than has any great nation since great nations first existed. A great nation does good and harm, almost in equal measure. It just depends on which face of the prism you choose to look into.

However, the US gets a far greater percentage of negative press based on what it does than other nations.
We do some bad, but we do FAR more good.
What I am saying is that if those nations that denounce us so vigerously... and MANY do, think we are so evil... don't take our tainted fruit.
I don't buy from morally corrupt businesses if I am aware of their practices.
How many won't go see, or spend money on in any way, a Mel Gibson movie now that he is out of the closet as an anti-Semite?
I don't let my money go to Roman Polanski or Woody Allen movies because pedophilia, especially incestuous pedophilia, should never be encouraged... particularly when they got away with it and were accepted back into their profession. So I don't buy from, or patronize any, production from them.

Same deal... if we are evil, don't deal with the devil, you don't get to have it both ways.

If someone states "I don't like this ONE decision, and this is WHY, but the US is still our ally and friend and we support them", for one thing... no sweat.
That is not what is happening.

America gets no more bad press than Britain used to. That is the price of being the most powerful nation on earth. America benefits from the choices it makes, so do those they help. Some countries benefit greatly from some things America does, whilst simultaneously being damaged by other things that America does.

To suggest that peoples who are dismayed by some of the things America does, should disassociate themselves from any and all dealings with America is absurd. Nations are symbiotic.

Benefits?
You must not have read my earlier post... a knife in the back is not a benefit.
I did not say nations that just did not like "some things", and you know it.
This nation is being denigrated constantly, worldwide, and within the UN our voting power is being slowly removed by those who call themselves our allies.
Acts like that should come at a cost.
These are nations we protect, feed, house, keep well, etc, etc...
But, I'm a Libertarian, these are things we should be doing for our own FIRST, BEFORE anyone else.

I agree you should be looking to the welfare and happiness of your own people first.

The reason your nation is being denigrated worldwide, is because your nation is involved worldwide. Involved in both positive and negative ways. Your nation also benefits from such worldwide involvement, or else it would not seek it. Without worldwide involvement your nation would not be as great and powerful as it currently is.

As to the knife in the back. That is global politics. Its a dirty game.
When Britain and Europe were devastated by the second world war, America offered help to rebuild. But that help was offered at a very expensive cost. The help offered to Britain for instance, was at the cost of decoupling our currency from the Gold Standard. Decoupling from the gold standard damaged Britain and had an irretrievable effect on our future wealth and power. We needed America's help, but America exacted a cost that damaged us. There are those who see that as a knife in the back. There are others who see it as a necessary development and consider that the benefits and intent outweighed the damage.

This is global politics. America acts in its interests and sometimes that helps other nations and sometimes it harms other nations. Other nations also act in their own countrys' interests, sometimes that means supporting America and sometimes it means opposing America. Sometimes America does right by its allies, sometimes America treats its allies barely as allies at all. Sometimes America's allies treat fairly with America, sometimes they do not. It is no different to the way it has always been, only the names of the players have changed.

America affects the world positively and negatively, as does every other country. The difference is that America is a leviathon and the effects therefore more dramatic. When America affects the world positively, the lives of millions are improved; when America affects the world negatively, whole regions may be thrown into chaos. This doesn't make America bad; nor does it make America good. America is America. It is neither the bogy man nor the ultimate cavalry. It is simply the most powerful nation on the planet, and as such most other nations will find their fates intertwined with it. Some aspects of that will be cheered, some will be opposed.

You are a pompous ass and you prove it repeatedly. I gave you numbers - they are right up there in my last post - notice the "quotes". I quoted you factual information and you will now try to wiggle your way out by dismissing the valid and OBVIOUS point that you are WRONG.

Can you give a link to that or some proof?

Wow, look at alllll that aid refusal.

Oh, wait, here's some refusal!

...but then...

What a crock of shit.

You have no idea what you are talking about... I lived those storms, all of them, disabled with an infant, and the aftermath. Water shortages, in heat that many of you have never known, no power, many areas flooded, roads closed for weeks, some for months, no repairs for months... things you cannot imagine. People doing horrible and wonderful things, but NONE of it trivial...
My neighbor died in those storms.
Trivial?
You are a fool, what is worse, an armchair, ignorant fool.
I am done with you.

Thank you Kitsune, finally some actual facts.

Is it just me, or does tw live a life of absolutely nothing but joyless negativity?

But, by way of returning to topic, Saddam's hanged and gone, and now his chief of secret police and close relative Barzan Ibrahim is just as dead whether he be in one piece or two.

Huzzah! Good riddance. People of decency, rejoice; the people of its opposite are put out of countenance.

Yes.

No.

I'm watching a Jason movie (some number, prob. fourty-two), he's gettin' his Pepi Le Peu on... this is fun.

I was going to give him a BJ b/c he got a math answer right and he seemed pretty ok with that--but THEN i thought: hey, tw might very well be a chick! so, I never followed-thru with the offer and (s)he, sadly, never came thru with air faire. Then I thought, if tw is a guy, he's a weird guy--like Mel in Conspiracy Theory, etc. and do I really want to offer my oral services to yet another nut case? so. You see the problem(s) with tw.

Regardless of his mental status, wasn't that your original plan? :)

Hey... it's been a while now since he's been murdered. Everything's all better now, right?

I think I just entered the twilight zone

Nah. You just fell down the Cellar stairs. We really should change that bulb.

Brianna, I think you were actually on pretty safe ground, AC- or DC-wise -- women don't sound like tw. However, on aesthetic grounds, you may have balked: men who are handsome, and do handsome, don't sound much like tw either.

Yeph. She got the facts correct again. Foreigners did offer assistance despite . And those hurricanes that made rkzenrage's hair drier non-fuctional were not category five - just normal FL hurricanes. Those damn ugly foreigners actually are just as generous - many are more generous - than Americans. I don't care what you think of me. But you forgot to mention the important part; that tw accurately identifed misinformation from yesman065. Who conventiently forgot about the Indian Ocean tsunami or the ongoing problems in Darfur and Chad when insisting "we help every freakin body all the time". Yesman065 posted what naive adults do when describing non-Americans as only second class humans. tw- she does not have that same hate of non-Americans as posted by yesman065. Instead she learns facts not based in Rush type specualtions. Instead she respects our friends in other nations.

When he gets older and unlearns extremist biases, then maybe yesman065 will do same.

Hmmm, AGAIN I have to correct the lies, BS and misinformation posted by tw - instead of dealing with the actual discussion at hand. This is growing most tiresome.

1) just normal FL hurricanes - well I guess thats one way to look at it - you obviously never experienced one! Perhaps next season rkzenrage can invite you down for a truly uplifting experience -

2) I didn't forget any of these. I repeatedly asked you to refute my statement. You, tw, have continually been unable to do so. *as usual* Post actual numbers in American dollars, or some other equal currency, showing the total amount of aid given by the US and the other countries. If not -then STFU and apologize as you should. Man up when you are wrong.

3)NEVER did I describe anyone as a 2nd class human, well maybe you are, but you really don't count since you're an emotionless Vulcan.
I have more friends and family from all over the world than you have any idea about. Don't prejudge me and make assumptions about my age nor maturity either. You have no idea who or what I am about.

SERIOUSLY I take personal offense to you making false accusations about me, posting untruths and, tw, outright lies.
SERIOUSLY