Originally Posted by morethanpretty (Post 510440)

That was inevitable where it was going to go though. There are no arguments against gay marriage that do not include theology. Any "moral" or "social" arguments are not based on facts either. I want someone to explain how this definition of "traditional marriage" came about. I think it was simply made up to counter gay marriage rights. Marriage has meant alot of things over the course of time.
It used to be traditional for the bride's family to give a dowry, should we do that in keeping with tradition? It used to be traditional for the bride's property to then belong to her husband, should we do that in keeping with tradition? It used to be tradition that for the family to arrange the marriage, should we do that in keeping with tradition? It was tradition for a man to divorce a woman for not giving him sons, should we do that in keeping with tradition? You see where I'm going with this I think. The "Traditional marriage" argument has no real standing because there is no such thing in history. Marriage has changed over history, even recently. Those who support this idea, chose one common theme and stuck with just that, because it is the only thing that is in alignment with what they want.

Originally Posted by morethanpretty (Post 509808)

Please explain your answer.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 510453)

I can only come up with one group of people that homosexuality can hurt, family. There is a pervasive attitude in our Me Generation that anyone can do anything and it has little to no consequence, as long as it makes you happy. I think if parents and family are not comfortable with choices you make as teens and young adults and you ignore other peoples feelings who support you, then you should really not be surprised when you loose that support, emotional, financial, educational, etc. So yea, you can hurt those around you, even if you don't mean to do it.

Originally Posted by Aliantha (Post 510331)

Personally I don't care if gay people get married or live in sin or live their life however they choose, just as I feel about straight people, or people who aren't sure about their sexuality, or people who choose to have open marriages even. I don't have any reason to stop anyone from living their personal relationships how the choose to, but some people do, and to most of those that do, it comes down to religious beliefs or social beliefs.

Saying that God has nothing to do with the discussion is like saying you don't like how rain makes puddles, so let's only talk about the puddles that appear because of other things.

Originally Posted by Aliantha (Post 510402)

Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but the fact that I'm 'legally' married doesn't mean anywhere near as much to me as the fact that I feel spiritually bound to my husband. In fact, it doesn't really mean anything to me what the law thinks. This is my issue with the whole legal contract argument. There's more involved in getting married than a simple signing of names. If that's all it was, then there'd be no talking or exchanging of vows. People would just send away for the forms, sign them and then send them back.

Originally Posted by Aliantha (Post 510273)

Isn't it more that they think their vows to each other will be cheapened if 'just anyone' is allowed to go ahead and get married? That's the feeling I get when I read those sorts of discussions.

Originally Posted by Yznhymr (Post 510510)

All tax payers suffer.

Originally Posted by Ibram (Post 510520)

But els's point, that still hasn't been addressed (i'm not tail-posting here), is that LEGALLY, god CAN'T have anything to do with the discussion. God is not part of the government, and therefore God can not be the reason to deny two people a social contract.





Again, that's wonderful, but LEGALLY speaking, it is NOT the government's business at ALL how you feel spiritually. Yes, two people can feel that for eachother and not need marriage at all, but if they want the LEGAL rights associated with the LEGAL contract of marriage, they deserve it. Of course marriage is more than just signing forms. But to the GOVERNMENT, it shouldn't be. In a legal sense, only the legal agreement matters.

Originally Posted by Shawnee123 (Post 510536)

Well, I see what you're saying, but to me that's the whole point. How could anyone else's anything cheapen another's couple's vows, if what you have is strong who cares what everyone else is doing?

I think vows are cheapened more by serial marriage people: hop from one marriage or relationship to another, or by those who marry for money, or for a million other reasons that, to me, seem aside from what marriage should be about. It's my opinion that pretty much "just anyone" can get married anyway...who am I to limit it or to say Billy Joe and Bobbie Sue can get married because they're in love, even if he beats her or she cheats, but Billy Joe and Bobby Jack who are very committed and believe in a purpose in life can't?

I know I'm talking to a very happily married person, so your opinion is valuable to this discussion. So many are not happy...

:)

Originally Posted by Aliantha (Post 510698)

Just to try and clarify this one more time.

At this point it is illegal for gay people to marry almost everywhere in the world.

Do I agree with this? nope. Not at all.

Why do I think it's illegal? Because it is socially unacceptable at the moment, and until it becomes socially acceptable it will remain illegal.

Why is it socially unacceptable? Because society is underpinned by religious and spiritual beliefs which conflict with facts a lot of the time, but it doesn't change the fact that religion has a big say in what's acceptable and what's not in most societies.

What do I think needs to happen to change things? We as a society need to recognise the rights of the individual to express their love however they choose to do so which may or may not include marriage.

Why hasn't it happened yet? All change takes time. There have been remarkable leaps forward for the gay community over the last 20 years or so, along with many other minority groups. Maybe it's not fast enough, but things are definitely not stagnant.

Do I believe it will happen? Most assuredly yes.

Originally Posted by Pie (Post 510405)

Read any RAH recently?

Originally Posted by morethanpretty (Post 510483)

Family gets hurt by other family members' actions all the time that have nothing to do with their sexual orientation. We can't do everything that "family" wants us to do and be personally happy.