When the US reaches the population density of, say, India, then maybe we will need to all switch to a diet of just lentils and rice to avoid famine. In the meantime, we can use our crop land for whatever we want. For me, that means meat with my veggies.

Glatt.

Where are you getting this information from? Most of the food crops raised in the US go to feed people in the US and other country's. Yes some is grown to feed animals, but most of it is for people. The stuff that is grown for animals is grown that way from the start, cattle and horses, etc are fed a different variety of corn, oats, etc. then you find in your local grocery store. Just about the only "livestock" food that is grown in huge numbers is Alfalfa hay, and that is because its the base for so many animals diets. Raising livestock is not far more wasteful, the plants that livestock eat, people often times cant eat, they have mold, they have bugs, or something else equally as bad. If the livestock don't eat it then it will be thrown away. Also where do you think the fertilizer for all of these fruits and veggies you buy in the store come from, you guessed right, the back end of a cow. The cow is not just a taker he is also a giver.

mmmm beef.

Far be it for me to agree with Quzah, but...

I think the idea is that if you used the land to grow food for humans, you could feed more humans than if you used the land to grow feed for livestock and then eat that livestock. I forget what the numbers are, but they are pretty compelling. This isn't just an opinion, it's a verifiable fact. I just don't know the numbers off the top of my head.

My point is that we have this 'extra' land that allows us to raise livestock. So where's the harm in having an inefficient system?

Vegetarian: Indian word for "bad hunter"

Here are some numbers.
Here are some more.
Few more.

Are there numbers like that on non vegan sites? I just spent half an hour looking at USDA and Department of Agriculture websites and cant find any of those numbers. I am not saying the numbers are wrong just that figures can be twisted to fit a certain need (i.e. trying to make everyone Vegan), so would prefer to see a non bias group of numbers before I believe them.

I hate to sound cliche, but: OMFG!!! LOL LMFAO!!!. You are truely a riot. You went to the USDA web site to find evidence of numbers [/b]against the USDA[/b]? You slay me, you really do.

That's like going to GW's web site to find out information that portrays the Democratic Party in a good light.

Thanks for the laugh.

But seriously, just what do you think it takes to feed a cow? A bail of hay a day? Half of one? Let's say half. Now how much water do they drink? How much water went into that bail of hay? How much land is used for that bail? How much land is used for the cow? How long does it take for one cow to grow to "butcher size"? How much cow shit does a cow shit (if a cow could shit cow shit) per day? How much urine?

That's just one cow. Take a moment to think about that. I doubt the numbers are "doctored" too much. Just pause for a moment to actually think of how long it takes for one cow to get that big and how much food they'd eat.

Quzah.

sounds like a good argument to eat lots of veal.

I doubt you'd find the information all spelled out for you like that on the USDA site, but maybe you'd find enough info to put your own numbers together. Or you could check the references used by the veg pages.

I went to those web sites because they often have charts of just how much grain, cattle, hay, etc is produced and consumed in a year. While yes they are bias toward livestock production they do have good info collected by the government. Its not looking for evidence against the USDA, its looking for hard numbers, which they often have.

Actually I know what it takes to feed a cow, my uncle in a cattle rancher. I have been around cows almost my whole life, even had dairy cattle in High School. I could give you rough estimates based on being raised around cattle and having neighbors who grew hay but they would be just estimates.

I want facts not based on books written by vegans. Already I have found a few statistics on the USDA sites that were different then the ones on the vegan websites. Are they worth posting here? prob. not, but if 3 or 4 of the stated facts are wrong then others might be as well.

You are welcome to believe those statistics, me I'm taking them with a huge grain of salt.

just a typo, or a freudian slip? hmmmmmmmmm

none of the above.

Next you'll be telling me the cowboys are the badguys.:eek:

If God didn't intend for us to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?






not much of a first post, i know. but i feel the need to say that whenever an animal rights argument comes up. it's my trump card when i can't think of anything else to contribute.

You fucker, you're not even going to fucking answer me??