"I've seen roads in PA and NJ deteriorate in 3 months so they weren't passable at more than 25 mph."

Here in S Louisiana the roads are terrible: terrible with gov oversight.

I'm thinkin' folks might do a better job of it w/out incompetent pols & greedy contracters.

#

"grew up with a town volunteer Fire Department who put out many grass fires around houses that burned down."

Made my point for me: thanks.

#

"The fire department usually has an ambulance with full time EMTs

Here, we got Acadian Ambulance. Privately owned. We seem to get along just fine w/out the gov in this area.

#

"Because it becomes too fucking expensive when only a few are in it"

Again: you make my point. If folks, in large numbers want sumthin' (like unimployment ins) then the market (other folks) will provide. If so few folks actually want it that it has to be mandated, by technocrats with lent power, to 'be', well: you get my drift.

#

"Right, they wouldn't come to rely on it, they'd just die like they used to."

Think it through: if you know your golden years are all on you then, mebbe, you make an effort to provide for those golden years when you're younger, you know, the way lots of folks do 'now' even with SS existin'.

#

"Fine when you boy is running 106 fever send out for bids."

Think it through: I've already done my homework. When he had an 'issue' I took him where the treatment was available and the reasonable, and 'I' paid the bill, not taxpayers.

#

"I don't need a charity but where do these people who do find one?"

On-line, phone book, a church, city hall, etc.

A tiny bit of effort renders great reward.

Oh, wait, you expect the charity to consult a crystal ball and go to the needy, yeah?

#

"thousands of people on the streets because they've no place to go."

Where & why are there 'thousands' on the streets with no place to go?

#

"I'm not even counting the ones who prefer the street to shelters because it's safer."

Where are these unsafe shelters?

#

"I'll bet for different reasons."

No doubt.

#

"OK, I googled Associated Catholic Charities. It gives me Baltimore and NYC as a footnote."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charities

And that link doesn't even begin to cover all the locations.

#

"Cato or Brutus didn't write it, you did."

No, I didn't: https://books.google.com/books?id=t3...nobis.&f=false

http://lf-oll.s3.amazonaws.com/title...1_EBk_v6.0.pdf

#

"The internet says you're wrong"

No, it doesn't.

#

"you are used to being wrong."

Please, expose my errors, list 'em, shame me.

Who? Who's going to fix the roads? Who's going to buy the equipment and materials?

Oh, I didn't realize your point was let 'em burn and try to keep it from spreading.

So you just pay whatever they say you owe, we also have private ambulances that charge as much as the lawyers who chase them.

So you think if 40% want it someone will provide it cheaper than the currant system? 60%? 80% And still make a profit? Not a chance. A corporation rich enough to fund that kind of operation wouldn't be bothered with that piss ant operation. To make it worth their while nobody could afford it except people who don't need it.

Most people in the real world couldn't come up with enough to pay a surprise $500 bill over and above normal living expenses. I don't think the % of people building an investment portfolio for retirement is very high.

The last time I was in the hospital I was there from 6AM to about 1:30PM and the bill was over $175,000... +$19 to park. The taxpayers didn't pay that either. If the taxpayers were paying it would have probably been in the $30,000 range. If you don't have to worry about that shit you must be pretty rich.

You're dreaming, every available resource is turning people away for lack off capacity.

The last numbers I saw were a little over 200,000 homeless citizens, but it's a tough area to get exact numbers.

Now I'm trying to figure out if you're fucking with me or you're really that out of touch with reality.


OK, where are they?

Yes you did, those dudes were long dead when the Cellar was created, and I doubt either one had a computer. You wrote it.

Show me.

I already have, just read everything you've written about the future. http://cellar.org/2012/bwekk.gif

"Oh, I didn't realize your point was let 'em burn and try to keep it from spreading."

My point: folks can 'do' w/out a gov's direction.

#

"So you just pay whatever they say you owe"

Kinda like you do when you go to the grocery, or pay taxes. Difference is you can shop around for lower prices with groceries. Try that with taxes.

#

"we also have private ambulances that charge as much as the lawyers who chase them."

That's the way it works, yeah.

#


"So you think if 40% want it someone will provide it cheaper than the currant system? 60%? 80% And still make a profit? Not a chance. A corporation rich enough to fund that kind of operation wouldn't be bothered with that piss ant operation. To make it worth their while nobody could afford it except people who don't need it."

If folks want it, they can have it w/out the gov. I never said it would be cheaper.

Me:I don't want it. Can't see why I should pay a dime into it. You 'do' want it; you pay for it.

#

"Most people in the real world couldn't come up with enough to pay a surprise $500 bill over and above normal living expenses."

And SS, somehow covers this? Mebbe folks coulda just kept that SS deposit in the first place, saving it as it suited them, investing it as they liked.

#

"The last time I was in the hospital I was there from 6AM to about 1:30PM and the bill was over $175,000... +$19 to park."

You had to pay to park? What a rip. None of the places I use make me pay to park. My last bill was two grand. I paid in installments. You can do that if you negotiate. If I'd still had my neat lil catastrophic policy (the one the ACA nullified) the bill woulda been handled that way (privately, w/out the gov).

#

"You're dreaming, every available resource is turning people away for lack off capacity."

Evidence, please.

#

"The last numbers I saw were a little over 200,000 homeless citizens, but it's a tough area to get exact numbers."

Why are they homeless?

#

"OK, where are they?"

Catholic Charitites? In every major city of every state; all over the world.

#

"You wrote it."

Cut & paste is not composition.

#

"Show me."

How? Oh, wait, I did that already by way of the two links.

#

"I already have, just read everything you've written about the future."

The future: by defintion, hasn't happened yet. How can I be wrong (or you, right) about that?

You can if you demonstrate that you have a viable alternative to SS so you don't become a moocher later.

There was a Staff Sergeant in my Special Forces unit (you know, those people trained to do insurgency operations) who was a savvy investor. He reasoned that he was losing money on SS contributions versus investing it. He got a lawyer, sued the government for taking SS deductions from his military pay and WON! He showed me his Leave and Earnings Statement (paycheck stub) and there was NO SS deduction.

A similar situation exists with healthcare. You don't have to have insurance if you have a viable alternative so you don't become a moocher. I don't have to have healthcare insurance. I have VA medical coverage, which is not insurance; but, is already recognized under ACA as a viable [minimally acceptable] alternative. I don't have to get an individual exemption.

Those who are paying into SS and/or healthcare insurance can find a way out of it if they can demonstrate responsibility towards their future. The majority of those complaining about paying into those programs don't have viable alternatives and are just self serving latent moochers.

After some Google research, and years in various libertarian movements, and the acquaintance of a gentleman who is a semi-hero in the anti-tax movement and who spent two and a half years in the fed prison for his efforts -- I do not believe there is currently any reasonable opt-out of SS, other than religious/clergy exemption.

~

It's true that, historically, almost all private investment outperforms SS returns. Even shitty investment. Here is a CATO paper that points out:

Sex, I wasn't aware of those exemptions.
 

Mebbe I need to seek one and end my 'criminal' ways.

nah

#

"moochers"

I just call 'em parasites.

##

"historically, almost all private investment outperforms SS returns"

Yep.

The objection, of course, is: 'but folks won't invest or save on their own!' which may be the case but isn't relevant (unless you wanna investigate 'why' folks may not self-preserve).

They can go back to where they wished they'd come from. :p:

When others have to pay to preserve them, that's what's done.

missed this first time 'round
 

"Who? Who's going to fix the roads? Who's going to buy the equipment and materials?"

Who does these things 'now'? The same folks (and a few others) would do it w/out gov oversight. What, people can't organize themselves, pursue common goals w/out 'finer clay' directin' 'em?

##

"When others have to pay to preserve them, that's what's done."

It's deeper than that. Consider: why do some go to great lengths to not rely on others? Why do some go to great lengths to force others to support them? What's the foundational difference between the two?

Why does one live with hardship knowing hardship is the price for autonomy while another not only runs madly from hardship (and autonomy) but works hard to push a leash on his fellows?

Why do some wanna take care of themselves while others want to be taken care of?

"It's deeper than that. …" which may be the case but isn't relevant (unless you believe the wants of the one, or the few, outweigh the needs of the many).

"the wants of the one, or the few, outweigh the needs of the many"

I think one gets to decide if he's gonna be relegated to bein' 'resource' for the many.

I think the many can go pound sand.

Then I expect the feeling will be mutual and what you want will never be achieved since we don't practice population control.

I guess we can't just kill the directors and directed, yeah?
 

cuz it'd be 'wrong' or sumthin'

Crunch the numbers. You won't get them all before they get you. Remember the Alamo.

"Remember the Alamo."
 

Dismember the enemy.

You remind me of Father Miguel Hidalgo, revered as the Father of his Country, who began the Mexican independence movement on Sept. 16, 1810. Hidalgo was a well intentioned man of imagination and courage who proved to be an inept organizer and leader. Hidalgo was captured and executed within 11 months. The prevailing story is that he was killed by firing squad, then decapitated, the morning of July 30, 1811. His head was hung from one corner of the regional grain exchange market building, which was being used as a prison, where it remained for 10 years until the end of the Mexican War of Independence in 1821. Like Hidalgo, if your preferred form of governance could ever come into being, you'd never see it.

YMMV.

I got no compulsion to lead anyone anywhere. Folks ought do what they do. I just claim the same for myself.

My 'preferred form of governance' is just a lot less of it.

So: I mind my own business, keep my hands to myself (expect others to do te same). Not seein' myself shot & beheaded anytime soon.

As for what comes tomorrow: we'll see.

uh huh.

Scale matters, I'd like to see the definition of "neutral".

Yes they can, everybody chips in and buys the equipment and hires the fireman. Costs more because not everyone will pony up, some will refuse, and some will give a string of excuses. Who's is going to collect the money and disburse it, keep people informed how much the owe because that will change constantly? Sounds like a full time job. Who's going to watch them?

$10 in gas to save a dollar on groceries, but I know people who do that.
I get 2% off my property tax for paying early.
That's expensive.
You don't seem to care about costs, you must be rich.

Most would get ripped off by shady Nigerian Princes or Bernie Madoffs.

All the hospitals around here have paid parking garages, some validate though.

Google "shortage of homeless shelter space"
About 2,170,000 results (0.57 seconds)
Because they don't have money to buy or rent.

They don't seem to be making a dent in the problem even in major cities.
I didn't say you composed it, two guys in England 300 years ago did.

Yeah that's my mistake. Since your post was long I hit quote and worked down through it so when I got to that I saw...
Attachment 68531

Because anyone who knows anything about human nature, even you, knows that utopia is impossible.

Same problem as the fire department, plus making sure the work meets engineering standards to be safe because they will cut corners any way they can.

Because some have a anti-social nature, and see John Wayne in every mirror. Feel they are better than the hoards and foolish enough to go thirsty rather than drink from the common well. The type who fought against tax funded public education, and public works like sanitation that has improved life for everyone. Hardly any rivers catch fire anymore, and most places you don't need your headlights at noon. It wasn't that long ago that wasn't true.

Others (most) understand the ways and means of civilization and the advantage of cooperation in making the quality of life better for everyone. That's more and more important as the world becomes more crowded.

The ultra rich are squeaking by...

Attachment 68537

I wonder what browser they use?

Attachment 68538

Aesop
 

A gaunt Wolf was almost dead with hunger when he happened to meet a House dog who was passing by.

"Ah, Cousin," said the Dog. "I knew how it would be; your irregular life will soon be the ruin of you. Why do you not work steadily as I do, and get your food regularly given to you?"

"I would have no objection," said the Wolf, "if I could only get a place."

"I will easily arrange that for you," said the Dog; "come with me to my master and you shall share my work."

So the Wolf and the Dog went towards the town together. On the way there the Wolf noticed that the hair on a certain part of the Dog's neck was very much worn away, so he asked him how that had come about.

"Oh, it is nothing," said the Dog. "That is only the place where the collar is put on at night to keep me chained up; it chafes a bit, but one soon gets used to it."

"Is that all?" said the Wolf. "Then good-bye to you, Master Dog."

Better starve free than be a fat slave.

Dōmo arigatō misutā robotto
 

:robot:

Does this post mean that you are leaving?

"Does this post mean that you are leaving?"
 

wasn't plannin' on it, but -- what the hey -- let's vote on it...

( )go, Henry, go!

( )stay, Henry, stay!

( )meh

At least until I figure out your fixation on Latin, pretty sure you aren't a priest, maybe a teacher, or maybe just obfuscation.
I have used Latin for over 60 years.

Put in another decade man. It's worth it.

"your fixation on Latin"
 

I post a bit of Latin, my one and only foray in a decade, and I'm 'fixated'.

:neutral:

-----

Four votes for 'stay, Henry, stay!'

What say the rest?

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity, folks!

You get to decide my fate!

Vote now!

Well, somebody had to do it! ;)

I think you should stay, but I also think it's a little out of character to be letting others decide for you.

I noticed that - ( ) roll over, Henry, roll over! - was not an option.

Oh well, you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

"Well, somebody had to do it!"
 

I'm takin' that as a 'meh'.

##


"I think you should stay"

Another 'stay, Henry, stay!'

#

'but I also think it's a little out of character to be letting others decide for you.'

I'm fulla surprises (or sumthin').

##

"Put in another decade man."

Yeah, I ain't committin' to nuthin'.

#

"It's worth it."

'bout a buck fity

##

"I noticed that - ( ) roll over, Henry, roll over! - was not an option."

No, me rollin' over ain't an option.

#

"Oh well, you can't teach an old dog new tricks."

woof

Attachment 68587

From DJ's thread Maps, etc., click on photo for source.

Attachment 68589

Well, of course Kentucky.

Link

They like to keep track of the boomers and their disposable income...

Keep track of those old bastards, I'm starting to get paranoid... :unsure:

http://cellar.org/img/povertydown.jpg

A strong economy with low unemployment is very effective at driving down poverty.

Figures don't lie. :rolleyes:

Hips Don't Lie

A good accountant can make the numbers say anything.

Where Canucks live...

Go north young man.

Calories...

Average daily fruit/veg calories at 100...

That's just under one banana per day. And nothing else.

The time of the reformation is at hand.

http://cellar.org/img/2008districts.jpg

http://cellar.org/img/2018districts.jpg

Yikes! Living in a red "have not" district this ain't good.

Seems to me the fastest way to balance that chart would be for the red districts to stop voting red...

It's less about voting red than being committed to an area or region that does not factor into the current economic system. Being conservative seems to make someone less likely to want to pick up and move out of a dying town. They've committed themselves to a way of life they were taught would be, through hard work, rewarded. They were taught the lessons of 1950.

Sure, but a lot of the current economic system is due to red mainstays like tax benefits for big corporations. I mean, I live in a big blue town that has experienced consistent growth and even continued to build (and rapidly sell) new homes right through the housing crash as if it never happened--so I guess it shouldn't bother me. I'd personally rather small-town America didn't die, but if they keep shooting themselves in the face on election day there's not a lot I can do.

It's not just that they were lied to; it's that they're being lied to to this day and they still haven't figured it out.

They are cutting their own throats... I'm about one pro-lifer moral authority meme from moving to a blue state.

you guys they are in the room and they can hear you

True. I try to be better and then I'm not.

It's the reformation at hand, man --

The idea that it's the poor people's fault they are poor is a very old one; and, as the wheels are turning, surprising to begin to hear it from the left.

damn, I been got.

I've been trying to sort this out through the lens of close family stuff seeing the conservative kids getting sketchy career advice from their parents but I completely ignored the child of liberals I was with last night who's been getting sketchy career advice. Nobody knows how to stay afloat in this economy, we're all guessing.

Wull now I feel bad. Sorry.

Don't be, I start generalizing and recognizing only what I assume I should see. That's poor mental hygiene.

:thumbsup:

Fuck those fucking fuckers.

I don't think Tom Joad and family packing up and heading for silicon valley is going to help. The answer is finding a way to make the Joads prosperous where they are.

The DNC was sent a memo about that in 2016