OH yeah, I forgot about that! Stupid me huh?

If the United States Government were to dissolve, or to suddenly give all land to American Indian tribes, any deeds I have would be void. I wouldn't have much to say about it. I would never give land back to the indigenous Americans because they never owned it in the first place. You can't give something back to someone who never had it in the first place.

I'll tell you something I wouldn't do. I wouldn't start training my daughter to hate the American Indians or to blow them up. I, unlike the American Indians actually do own my land, and if my deed were made void, I'd fight to defend it, but not if it would risk the lives of my wife or daughter. If it got too ugly, I'd cut my losses and move somewhere else. I'd act like a reasonable and rational person and move on.

Radar, do you see anything wrong with the logic you've just employed in this last post of yours?

If so, go ahead and share. If not, you're a lost cause.

In the eyes of the anti-Zionists, Israel shouldn't be allowed to exist or to defend themselves when attacked. Clearly its these people who don't feel that Israel should be held to the same standards. Israel is trying to live under the same standards. When people attack them, they attack back. Israel has never ever ever ever ever been the aggressor, and has ALWAYS been the defender. Every use of force on the part of Israel has been in DEFENSE, and every attack against Israel has been OFFENSIVE.

You can bet your ass that if Mexico started blowing up Americans in Southern California, America wouldn't make concessions, offer land, give food, clothing, and shelter, or otherwise assist those people. You can bet your life if this happened consistently for decade after decade, Mexico would be taken over entirely and a huge number of their population would be destroyed.

Israel has the power to destroy all of its neighbors without any help from America. The only thing stopping this is Israel's own restraint. Were I in charge of a nation and my neighbors were blowing up my people for decades, I'd kill each and every single living thing in that country if it would save the people in mine. I'd give them the choice to live in peace or to rest in peace. This is what Israel should do.

Israel should put the fate of the so-called Palestinians in their own ability to stop their people from attacking Israeli Jews. Let them know in no uncertain terms that if there is a single attack against Jews, every man, woman, and child will be allowed to evacuate and those who don't will be killed. This would mean the so-called Palestinians would report all of their own people who planned attacks for fear of losing everything. They would kill these people before they could kill Jews.

There is no flaw in my logic. You suggestion that I have such a flaw is based on the notion that if I fight for my land, I'm the same as the so-called Palestinians. The difference is they N-E-V-E-R owned any land during the entire 3,000 years in question just as the American Indians NEVER owned any land here. They wouldn't be fighting for their own land and I would be.

Think what you like Radar. I disagree with your point and don't think you're seeing the bigger picture. That's your right, but I'm not going to debate the issue with you any longer because there's no point when you are being so small minded.

Finally we agree on something. We both think the other is small-minded and can't grasp the big picture.

I'm pretty sure everyone here thinks you're small minded and can't grasp reality.

I dunno, radar makes sense more often than UG or tw does... but on this one, I say he's half-way talking out of his ass.

I don't side with either the israelis or the palestinians in general. I think theyre both in the wrong. I think both sides need to reign in their more extreme elements, and I think this fight has been going on so long that it doesnt matter who started it, not that it can impartially be judged who did start it. The israelis should absolutely be treating the palestinians better, but... the palestinians should absolutely be treating the israelis better. The palestinians should absolutely not be killing israelis, but... the israelis should absolutely not be killing palestinians.

Theyre both absolutely in the wrong, and will both continue to absolutely be wrong until the cycle of violence is broken, by one side or by both.

Of course they're all being shit heads. Neither side's leadership has shown much reasonability. It's the prisoner's dilemma, neither side believes the other will work with them. The reason I think Israel has more of a claim of responsibility is that they have the CAPABILITY of significantly changing the situation of the area. They have a potent military and fair resources to bring to bear.

If the palestinians somehow convinced everyone to become peaceful, it would take decades for any noticeable change to come about. If Israel stopped the insanity and then, I dunno, worked on building up a west bank/gaza infrastructure and economy, the change would start in a matter of A decade.

The long and short of it is, 99.9% of people everywhere just want to live their life in peace, eat dinner with their friends and family, and have some cool parties/weddings/births. If these simple desires are taken care of, it's amazing how little extremism will take root.

Because one country gives another country something that never belonged to them to give away does not support the notion that the action was legitimate or right. You point holds no water, or sand, whatever the case may be.

Well said Merc.

You are neglecting the indisputable fact that it DID belong to them because it was won in battle. The UK owned the land. Before that the Turks owned it, Before that the Roman's owned it, etc.

This is how border disputes and land ownership have always been decided throughout history.

The UK were the rightful owners of land and they gave it to create a few different countries. People that previously lived on that land (whether it was for a day or a thousand years) had no legitimate claim of ownership.

Merely living on land does not make it yours and the number of years you have lived on it doesn't change this.

Ibram, I don't like what Israel has been forced to do to defend themselves and neither do they. What is the proper response in your mind for those who don't believe you have a right to exist in the first place, have stated their desire to murder everyone in your country and drive them into the sea and to erase your country from the map? What is the proper response for those who blow up women and children in crowded shopping malls, bus stops, etc.? What is the proper response against people who blow you up during peace talks or murder your Olympic athletes?

Okay. I'll buy that as a hypothetical. At what point is it no longer acceptable to attempt to win land by battle?

When human beings cease to exist. As long as there are human beings, there will be war and land disputes.

Radar, what is the proper response to those who raze your home to the ground? What is the proper response to those who shoot your children (some of them babies)? What is the proper response to those who treat you as prisoners, even though you have committed no crime?

There's a young man, a Palestinian, whose middle class parents (yes there are a few of them left) sent him to be educated at Bradford university, in the UK. He returned home to visit his family during the Summer recess and the Israeli government have refused to allow him to leave Palestine and return to the UK for the third year of his degree. We're approaching the last 3 weeks of the first semester and he is still trapped behind the Wall. He is not a terrorist. He has committed no crime. He is just a young man trying to educate himself

The people living in the occupied territories are mainly crammed into one of the most densely populated areas of the planet, with very few amenities, intermittent (in some cases no) electricity supplies, tragically high unemployment rates, little access to medical care without running the gauntlet of checkpoints and occassionally opened gateways where they are routinely refused (this holds true for pregnant women trying to get to the hospitals). They are imprisoned. There is nowhere from them to go and even if there was, access to routes out are all but vanished.

These people have been imprisoned. The Gaza strip is the world's biggest prison camp in all but name.

The fact that Arab leaders and academics make hideous and unconscionable statements about the Holocaust, and about wiping Israel off the map is irrelevant to Israel's treatment of these people. The relatively small number of people who are involved in rebellion, do not justify Israel dehumanising and brutalising innocent civilians. To suggest it is wickedness incarnate for Hamas to send suicide bombers to kill Israeli babies and yet mere defence when Israel sends its soldiers or its bombs to kill Palestinian babies is intellectually bankrupt.

Ok. What rules apply within those conflicts? What are the acceptable routes to winning a land dispute?

Israel is not responsible for the living conditions of their neighbors or their unemployment rates. It sounds like that young man should not live inside of Israel. If he lived outside of Israel in the Palestinian territory, he would not require the permission of the Israeli government to leave the area. I realize this is a catch 22.

There are people right here in America who can't travel either because they have been placed on a list. Of course I am against such policies here or there unless someone has reason to suspect a crime has been committed.

I suspect there is more to your friend's story than you know. The U.K. has been getting tighter with security and it may be blocked on their side without telling your friend.

Those who had homes torn down include both the Israeli Zionists and the so-called Palestinian people. Both have illegally built homes in disputed areas and both have been torn down by the Israeli government. I have never suggested that everything the Israeli government does is right, but everything it does is in its defense because they are under constant threat from their neighbors.

Those who lost homes in 1947, in 1967, or other battles are irrelevant. Israel was legitimately and honestly given land in 1947 and those who lost homes didn't own the land. It's a shame for them, but 60 years should have given them time to get over it. In the 6-day war, Israel was on the DEFENSIVE side of attacks by neighboring countries. In all fairness when Israel won, it could have taken HUGE pieces of land from the losing countries but it didn't. It only took a fairly small amount of land to act as a buffer originally and now uses this land for homes.

Those who lost land in the war have only their own governments to blame.

Israel does not go after women and children. Anyone who says they do is a liar. This is a statement of fact. Israel does all it can to retaliate without harming women and children but the terrorists hide among them. The deaths of those people rest squarely on the heads of those who hid among them to endanger them.

Israel doesn't hand AK-47s to toddlers and tell them the most glorious thing they can do is kill Arabs, but the reverse is true. Israel doesn't blow up crowded shopping malls full of Arab women and children, but the opposite is true. As a rule, Israel doesn't shoot children unless those children have a bomb strapped to them or otherwise pose an immediate danger (guns, slings with rocks, etc). Israel doesn't just randomly attack civilians. It only attacks those who have been involved in the planning or carrying out of attacks or known terrorist groups like Hamas or the PLO.

In stark contrast to the Arabs, Israel uses force only in defense.

Why don't the so-called Palestinians build their own hospitals? Why don't they build their own electrical stations? Why don't they build their own water treatment facilities and pumps?

Those who want to kill the Israelis expect Israel to provide them with water, food, electricity, etc. and call Israel monsters when they are cut off because they won't stop killing Jews or because they choose a terrorist organization to lead them.

You can read about some of the rules here, Geneva Conventions

Basically both sides should be wearing uniforms to help avoid unnecessary civilian casualties. Both sides agree to treat prisoners in a way that doesn't violate their human rights. Both sides agree not to fire missiles from hospitals or blow up hospitals that aren't being used to launch attacks, etc.

Other than that, they kill each other until one gives up. To the winner goes the spoils.

What sort of filter do you have on your perception that you can say that is what they do? Do you think the generals say to their tank commanders, "hey, drive around until you find a baby, and then kill it"?

Israel doesn't do this. But Hamas straps bombs to children or women and tell them to do exactly this.

The people of Enron didn't put a gun to someone's head like some blue collared criminals do, but does that make what they did any less worse?

Comparing the actions of Israelis and Palestinians is basically comparing white and blue collared crime. There are many similarities but are too different fairly compare them face to face. That is why all the "stats" are total shit.

Ok, if you want to use a whitecollar/bluecollar example (which is a bogus comparison) it's like a huge WTA protest with thousand and thousands of people and some of them toss trashcans through the windows of businesses so the cops toss teargas into the crowd and fire rubber bullets. Some of the people who get hit weren't those involved in trashing someone else's property.

The innocent ones who got hurt were hurt because the ones who weren't innocent hid among the crowd and nobody did anything. The crowd didn't take part in the destructive act, but condoned it and allowed the guilty people to hide among them. If the crowd had pointed them out, and told them this kind of behavior wasn't acceptable, and turned the bad guys over to the police, the innocent ones wouldn't have been harmed or gotten beaten unconscious with a club.

Don't blame the police because they were forced to bust heads when some of the crowd started throwing glass bottles at them. Don't blame the businesses for using the police to defend their property. Blame those who started the problem in the first place when they deviated from peaceful protests into violent clashes or the destruction of property.

How is the white collar/blue collar example bogus? You can't just say it is bad, show it.

A main difference between white and blue collar crime is the power and resources involved. If a blue collared worker needs to get money, he or she will most likely be forced to take it individually, which will usually involve some sort of forceful method such as an armed robbery. A white collared worker does not have to do that. He or she can use his or her resources to slyly take money away from a great number of people without violence.

The same can be applied to the Palestine/Israeli situation. The only way Palestinians can attack Israel is by physical force, usually by terrorist attacks. This is directly comparable to a stick up where one person or a small group will get physically hurt at one moment. While Israel can cut off supplies to the entire Palestinian region which hurts millions of people for a long time but usually does not involve direct physical attacks like a white collared worker can steal from thousands of people over a period of time without physical violence.

So, if Israel has the power and resources to avoid direct physical attacks, why would they use them just like why would a white collared worker get money by an armed robbery when he or she can use other methods? That is why comparing individual deaths or war tactics is pointless in this debate. We have two completely different styles of warfare so most "stats" are just picking out a biased comparison that will hurt one group while leaving the other unhurt.


I am not getting into proactive and reactionary attacks with this since that is just justification for attacks and have nothing to do with the overall tactics used by either side.

The whitecollar/bluecollar example is bogus because Israel isn't committing any kind of crime, let alone a white color crime. Also because Israel isn't trying to exert control over their neighbors; it is merely trying to defend itself from those who would destroy it. Israel has never been interested in conquest, has never said they would wipe other nations off the map, have never said they would kill all Arabs, etc. And lastly, murder is murder. It's not white or blue collar.

Israel is using defensive physical force against people who have actually harmed them. The Palestinians are using aggressive physical force against women and children who have not harmed them.

Israel isn't cutting off supplies from other people. They have cut off providing supplies that they were generously giving to those who wanted Israel destroyed. I'm sure the generous Arab nations will give until it hurts to those people right? Oh wait, no they won't because they don't care about the so-called Palestinians. They only give when it means Jews will be killed.

Israel does all it can to avoid physical attacks. This is why they have such tight security. Israel tries to avoid attacking other than when they must. Israel will do ANYTHING necessary to protect themselves and those who attack Israel are begging for destruction.

If Israel is the white-collar all powerful criminal elite (mafia), and the so-called Palestinians are the blue-collar street thugs, the guys on the street should know they can't mess with the organized crime bosses. When they do, they die and so do their families.

The difference is even stupid street thugs know not to rob a mob boss where the so-called Palestinians never seem to learn this lesson.

Its amazing, to me, that someone as smart as you usually seem to be, radar, could believe that this issue is so perfectly black-and-white, without a shade of gray to be found.

It makes me sad. Its people like you, radar, who cause so much suffering, both in israel/palestine and elsewhere in the world. You people who believe so absolutely in who's right and who's wrong that you dont see that, regardless of who's right and who's wrong, people are suffering and dying, children are getting shot or maimed or blown up, wives are losing husbands, mothers losing daughters, sons losing fathers. People like you, radar, cause that suffering, people like you on both sides of the conflict.

If you are completely confident that you or your 'side' is absolutely in the right, that is possibly the surest sign that you are not.

Wise words.

Yes, I am sure Israel is right because they are the defenders, and those who want to seem them destroyed are the attackers. My conviction has absolutely no connection to the veracity of my opinion.

This does not mean I don't feel pity and sadness for those who have lost loved ones on both sides. I find it horrible when anyone dies on either side of this conflict. I'm disgusted by it. It's a perfect example of why I believe religion is stupid. I think to myself, "When will this madness end?"

The answer to this question is simple. It will end when the so-called Palestinian people learn to care more about their children than they do about killing Jews. It will end as soon as the so-called Palestinian people want it to end. Israel will always use brutal force in their defense. History has proven thousands of times that when Israel chooses not to attack, they continue to be attacked so the fate of everyone on both sides is in the hands of the attackers... (the so-called Palestinians)

If they stop attacking Israel and electing terrorists as their leaders, Israel will stop retaliating with even harsher force and the longer they can go without murdering Jews, the more relaxed security will be and the better the conditions will get.

Crime had nothing to do with this analogy, I was pointing out how Israel's greater power and influence influenced their tactics and how they look to the outside world.

I am not going to respond to the rest of the post because it will get us nowhere. While I do have understanding of their troubles, I have admitted and am critical to Palestinian mistakes and wrongdoings but you have never admitted to any mistake on the Israeli side. Your closemindedness is mindblowing and extremely dangerous.

I will say this though. There is only one way peace can be achieved in the Palestinian/Israeli area and that is the one state solution. If you really want peace and the deaths to stop, you have to realize that this is the only way. If you can not accept this and are still focused on the Zionist goal, you must realize that your side will allow the continuation of deaths on both the Israeli and Palestinian side with no progress being made except making a turn to genocide for a side not yet determined because of some unreachable bullshit ideal. The Palestinians are not going to drop their weapons down no matter how much you tell them too for reason you will probably never understand because you can NEVER relate to them. You can rant all you want but it will never happen and I hope you can acknowledge this. That means if you want progress in this region, you will have to give up your ideals for reality.

One thing you, and the Arabs must admit, is Israel is going nowhere. It will never go away and nothing they can do will change this. Israel will NEVER stop defending themselves or retaliating with deadly force when attacked with deadly force.

You are correct, the deaths must stop. The only way this will happen is when the aggressors (so-called Palestinians) stop killing Jews. You must realize that the fate of the so-called Palestinians rests in their own hands. As long as they kill Jews, the deaths on both sides will continue. If they stop, there won't be deaths on either side.

Until the day that the so-called Palestinians do drop their weapons and stop calling for the destruction of Israel, they will continue to die down to the very last one of them. Israel is better at killing so this could very well be a reality if the so-called Palestinians don't get it through their heads that Israel is here forever and for every Jew they kill, 10 of their people will die.

I'm all for peace in that region. I want the killing to stop. It will never stop unless the so-called Palestinians stop first. Israel has given all it will give. The so-called Palestinians can take it and have peace, or refuse it, continue to kill Jews and eventually be destroyed completely.

The question is when will the so-called Palestinians care more about the lives of their children than they do about killing Jews?

Okay, so... You think israel is nothing but a beleaguered defender, nothing but a victim? That there is no conceivable reason that the palestinians are attacking them, except that they exist?


Oh, and what happened to, any land rightfully won in war is land owned? If that's so true, why do you so deny palestine's ability to, conceivably, fight israel until they cede territory?

I never said that the so-called Palestinians didn't have a reason to attack Israel. That reason is mindless hatred, racism, a false sense of being a victim or of having had something taken from them that they never actually owned, etc. They hate Israel because Israel is successful and they are not. They hate Israel because Israel is the land of the Jews and it's the only free nation in the entire middle-east.

If they declare war against Israel, they will lose. Israel would be within their rights to give them a chance to leave and kill each and every single living thing remaining and take ALL of the land.

They can learn to live with what they have, or they can die and get nothing. The choice is their own.

Ugh, I have already said that the Palestinians will not drop down their weapons unless their is some sort of miracle so if you do want to talk about solutions instead of pointing fingers, we will both have to work with that premise.

For your side, when you mean Israel will not go away what do you mean by that? Do you mean the Jewish state of Israel will not go away, the state called Israel will not go away but it can let go of its Jewish and Zionist status, or do you mean the Jews will not go away?

Working backwards, I will never be accepting of a solution that will kick the Jews out to the Mediterranean Sea. I do not believe the Jewish state should be there, but the individual Jews should not be kicked out just like the Palestinians should not have been kicked out of their homes. I would content with a Palestinian/Jewish state called Israel that is not most importantly a Jewish homeland but a state for Jews, Muslims, Christian, and others to live together equally but I would much rather the name be changed but that is not a big factor. If you are saying that Israel will not give up its "Jewish State" status, then I am afraid genocide for an undetermined side will be inevitable and I am hoping we both can agree that we want to avoid that.

Now like I said, we need to start with a premise that the Palestinians will not give up their guns if the situation remains unchanged or else we are not dealing with reality so I will try to go through the possibilities I see as reality.


Like I said earlier, I can not accept the destruction of Israel in the sense of kicking the Jews out and that the remain of Israel as a "Jewish homeland" will result in genocide so hopefully we are talking about the last possibility.

Would you be willing to accept a Israeli/Palestinian state where Jews, Muslims, Christians, and others would be treated as equals, which is only possible if Israel gives up its "Jewish homeland" status? I realize that this is very borderline unrealistic but I feel it is the most effective solution and basically the only hope for peace. If Israel opens it borders and the standard of living for Palestinians rise dramatically, I am almost positive that the terrorist attacks will not only go down, but the peaceful Palestinian people will start to turn against them because of more profitable options, which is what you want.

I can go into more details later but if you want peace, I recommend you look into the one-state solution as the last hope for the region and if you have any other opinions except "the Palestinians give up their guns" because I have repeatably said that is not going to happen please give them.

The Zionist and Jewish State of Israel will NEVER go away. Jews will NEVER give up their homeland. This is not up for debate.

Zionist = Jewish. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar. The only Jews who oppose Zionism (a Jewish State) are either self-hating Jews (like those raised in Iran) or the rabbis who don't disagree that Israel is owned legitimately but who say the Jews aren't supposed to return to Israel until the coming of the messiah.

Since we've established that the Zionist state of Israel is here to stay, that it has the power to defeat each and every one of its neighbors, and that it will always use deadly force against those who use deadly force against it, we can look to how the violence can stop.

I've told you that fire will always burn you and that this fire is here for eternity. When you put your hand in fire you get burned. How many times do you need to get burned before you stop reaching into the fire? Does it take the fire burning your entire body to death? Should I pity those who are stupid to keep reaching into the fire when they get burned? Can the people who keep getting burned be taken seriously when they claim to be victims?

Israel treats the so-called Palestinians better than they are treated in any Arab state. Non Jewish men and women are allowed to live, work, vote, and hold political office in Israel including Muslims and Christians. Jewish men and women (or any women for that matter) aren't allowed to vote in Arab countries. In fact in most Arab countries, Arab people aren't allowed to vote because they are either brutal dictatorships or monarchies.

Israel is already fair and generous to the so-called Palestinians. In fact there is only one right that Jewish people have above other people and that is the right of return. Non-Jews must do paperwork to become a citizen.

So again, we are at an impasse. Israel will kill those who kill Israeli people. Israel isn't going anywhere ever. The only way to stop getting killed by Israel or to get any kind of mercy is to stop killing Israeli people. End of story.

Until this happens, the so-called Palestinian people will continue to die in much larger numbers than the Jews they kill. Eventually they will run out of people to kill Jews or they will learn that when you reach into fire, you get burned.

You do nothing to create empathy among others for Israel or Jews Radar. All you do is create enmity by sermonizing your point which seems to be the same point ad nauseum with different words, while belittling every person who tries to discuss the issue with you.

I wonder why they bother?

My theory is that most rational people on this planet realize that there is no absolute right or wrong, and that 'god' didn't give anyone any piece of land and that things change in the world regardless of who likes it and who doesn't, so therefore they feel a moral responsibility to show you the error in your thinking before you, like all other extremists come to a shattering end.

If Israel is so unwilling to bend then it must surely break. As with Palestine. I really don't care if you think Israel can 'crush' their enemies or not. The fact is, without the US on its side, Israel will more likely be the crushee if it comes to a conflict in the middle east without US and British forces.

So you go ahead and pontificate all you like, but the only person you're fooling is yourself.

Then let the genocide begin.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Since this shows that they are not interchangeable I guess these definition are lying to us. Damn Wikipedia and its unreliability.

Shut the fuck up. You do not know the views of Jews who oppose the Israeli state so stop pretending you do. Many Jews oppose Israel for the same reasons Dana and I do.

Whether you choose to admit it or not, the whole world isn't gray. There are black and white issues. There are true dichotomies in this world, if you can't recognize them, you should seek professional help because you can't grasp reality.

Israel can crush every Arab nation in the middle-east without any help from America or the UK. For the record, I haven't been "pontificating", I've been stating facts.

FACTS

• The Zionist nation of Israel will never go away.
  
• Israel will use deadly force against those who kill Israeli Jews.
  
• Israel will use any level of force necessary to defend itself up to and including the complete destruction of those who would destroy it.
  
• Israel doesn't practice apartheid.
  
• Israel is the only free and democratic nation in the middle-east.

Since these are the facts, the so-called Palestinian people can choose to accept these facts, or continue to attack Jews and eventually find themselves completely destroyed.

If refusing to give up their country is being inflexible than so be it. Israel has as much legitimacy as any other country and will defend itself like any other country or better. America would destroy any nation that tried to constantly attack it or claim it had no legitimate right to exist.

I hate to see the suffering on both sides of this dispute, but the fact remains that each and every single death on both sides is a result of the aggression of the so-called Palestinians. All of this suffering is at their hands. When they stop killing Jews, the suffering will end, and not a second before.

FACTS

The Zionist nation of Israel will go away when they're all extinct.
Any nation will use deadly force against those who kill their own
Any nation will any level of force necessary to defent itself...blah blah blah
Israel is not the only nation that doesn't practice apartheid
Israel is far from free although it may be democratic

Blah blah blah...

Through the course of this thread, you've proved yourself to be other than a master debater. In fact, so far all I can see is a one trick pony.

I see. The extent of your debate skills is "nuh uh! blah blah blah"

I rebutted your facts. They just weren't that exceptional Radar. Just more of the same rhetoric you've been spewing for a number of pages now.

Like I said, a one trick pony.

You can't rebut facts. You merely lied and claimed they were false. You've disproven nothing.

I heard about a trick you do with a pony, but we'll save that for another discussion.

You can't assume an Israeli-centric world.

You could basically write the same thing for an Arab-centric view.

FACTS

• Arabs can never allow a Jewish state in the Middle East
• They will continue to fight, no matter the odds against them
• Blah, blah

It just solidifies the fact that there is no solution that doesn't involve hurting one side.

I think it's because of a great lack of understanding: they can't understand how wrong they are, siding with the antidemocracy here.

Is this another way of saying to us that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is some kind of vice?

Wasn't that way in 1947 or 1956. Any reason to think something fundamental has changed? For that is what it would take. In extremis, Israel will use its nukes on enemy states' population centers, making the peace of the desert. So the enemy states must somehow not provoke Israel's... Shabbos punch.

Quite bluntly, Israel has been willing to bend, and as bluntly, Israel doesn't have a lot of bending room, while the Palestinian Authority's position seems to be that they haven't anything to lose by being unbending. If the fighting were up to Israel and the Palestinians solely, it would have been long over by now. The Palestinians have been kept as a catspaw to conduct a protracted war by proxy. It is easy to see who is keeping the Palestinians without creative options: Jordan and Syria. Lebanon I'm not quite sure whether it's Lebanon or really Syria -- not enough data.

Extremism in any form is always harmful to someone.

If it's better to harm someone else in your extreme pursuit of liberty (and that's a debatable statement in itself) then you're no better than any other extremist. You're just another wolf in sheeps clothing.

With regard to the last part of your post UG, with respect, I'm going to leave that go. I think it's been debated long and hard on this forum and many others.

Anyway, that's enough from me. You lot can have at it from here on in. :)

Well you got my point. I wonder why it was so hard for Radar to see it. Must be blinders he's wearing I guess.

It's not extremists to say that a nation will never just pack it up and leave, especially a nuclear power. It's not extremists to say that a nation will never stop killing those who attack it. It's not extremist to say that the aggressors are the ones who have to stop the violence rather than the defenders.

It is extremist to suggest that a nation allow itself to be bombed and attacked for 60 years without doing something about it. It is extremist to suggest that Israel cease to exist as the Jewish homeland it was created to be.

That is simple. If the Arabs will not allow a Jewish state and will continue to attack no matter what, the only solution is for them to be destroyed completely and the odds of this are much greater than the odds are that the Zionist state of Israel will ever go away.

Israel can wipe out all of these nations without any help from the UK, the UN, or America.

Eradicating the Palestinians would guarantee Isreals own eradication at the hands of neighboring Muslim countries.

Actually it wouldn't because Israel alone can defeat them all without any help from the USA, the UK, or the UN.

Ok, based on that theory the US owned Europe after WW2. Give it back. The US owns Iraq. The US owns Afganistan. The US owns Italy. The US owns a hell of a lot of property and you all need to give it back right now.

It's funny you should say that. This is part of the reason the cold-war was started. Russia felt that since France had been defeated, it no longer existed as a country and when Germany fell, they felt that Germany, France, and Italy should be divided among the allied forces.

I happen to agree with them. France would be a much nicer place if America owned it. Also, if you think America doesn't own Iraq or Afghanistan you're nuts.

Ever heard of the term, "You broke it, you bought it?" Puppet regimes have been setup that have allegiance to America.

Ah, don't you love the smell of colonialism in the morning?

I kind of wish we were still under British control as well...

Well.....ya know deep down Americans are just failed Londoners really :P

The whole world is either a failed Londoner or a London wannabe :p

Hey...my ancestors didn't fail. They just committed vile crimes (like stealing cabbages from someone back yard to feed their kids).

I don't want to be a Londoner. I really love being an Aussie. ;)

Thanks for being silly enough to send my family here you lot. :)

*grins*

The majority of the early English settlers to America were people who'd migrated from rural or depressed areas of the country to London (many from Wales actually) in hopes of finding work/wealth/a future and ended up with some rather stark survival choices to make. Many of those transported were such people who'd turned to petty crime or prostitution. Many of those who didn't end up being transported for crimes, ended up selling themselves into indentured servitude in order to try their luck in the New World, having realised rather sharply, that London was not a good place to be if you weren't part of an 'honourable' i.e. apprenticed trade.

Only parodying the archetypal London arrogance.
As you were.

I know you were SG. ;)

The smart ones found their way out of the fog.