Juvenile does not imply no thought/planning, it implies juvenile thought/planning.

Pretty tough to define the difference, isn't it? Wouldn't a smart kid plan better than a stupid adult?

hard to define the difference between no thought and juvenile thought?

Yes, I would think a smart kid could plan better than a stupid adult.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Between juvenile thought/plans and adult thought/plans? I asked because you didn't say no plans vs plans, but no plans vs juvenile plans.

I think that's because there was a suggestion that the fact they engaged in planning means they aren't acting as juveniles.

exactly. The poster inferred that if there were plans/thought, then the perps must be acting as adults. But kids do plan and think about things, and they sometimes are extremely illogical and do not have the ability to consider all the possible consequences of their actions, and this is most likely a result of their brains not yet being fully matured.

For example, you might get a toddler wedging the freezer door open because the ice cream was lonely. You treat the "crime" of ruined food differently than you would if it were an older child, and with the older child there might well be a differnce in the consequences depending on whether they were being malicious, careless or stoned. if it were an adult, their reasoning would probably have little impact on the consequences.

That doesn't mean it's easy to differentiate at what level these kids were processing their thoughts, and that's why there is an age limit to differentiate between juveniles and adults. There never will be an easy answer.

What we need is a new type of prison system. No longer is it acceptable to simply house criminals in what are, in effect, training centers for future crimes. It is too expensive to keep building new prisons indefinitely, at least with the way we do things now. New technology will slowly start to improve this though, at least as quickly as we can afford to upgrade the system.

The most immediate thing I can think of is to remove common areas from all prisons constructed from now on. Each inmate would spend their days in a small number of interconnected rooms, perhaps with a combined area of twice to three times a typical cell now. This would allow more prisoners to be stored in a small space, and would also reduce problems during transportation. Food could be transported via vacuum tube, as well as any other items needed. Shower and sink would be contained in the same area, leading to fewer problems during bathing periods. Soap, shampoo, and toothpaste would be depenced from a general tubing system which would serve entire units. Entertainment could be supplied in the form of an hour or so of TV a day (more would waste electricity) and a certain number of books per month requested in advance.

This system, in my most sincerest opinion, would not only be far more effective for general inmates but would also allow more effective containment of high risk or special needs inmates. NO2 or other gases could be pumped into each cell without guards being put at risk due to the confined area, and the prisoner would not need to be subdued physically.

This is not nearly the entire system, but if I make this post longer no one will read it. :yelsick:

Within my lifetime I hope to be part of making this a reality. Research now, advocating as a lawyer laterhttp://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...tyreport_9.jpghttp://www.cellar.org/%5BIMG%5Dhttp:....jpg%5B/IMG%5D

Well, I suppose considering the outcome, the only thing we can be sure of is any thinking was flawed.

I can see how that might potentially be kinder than physical force...but it also raises worrying questions about the prinoer's human rights.

We Germans did that during the war...

I still say that some prisoners should have their "human rights" revoked.

Rights don't come from other people. We're BORN with them. They are immutable and unalienable. They can't be "revoked" anymore than you can revoke someone's gravity.

It's been said you can judge a civilisation on how well it treats its prisoners. That they have committed apalling crimes does not stop them being human.

But they sure can be trod upon.

Very true. They can be violated, but they can't be taken away, given away, bought, sold, or traded.

That's one hell of -right there- Radar.

Your "pods" disgust me 9th. Too much CO2 is bad for you and can kill you.....it also keeps oxygen and blood flow from reaching the brain and can cause severe brain damage. Your form of "rehabilitation" would handicap them indefinitely- that is after they got out of your futuristic Iron Maiden. If they ever got out. It's hard to prove your DNA evidence and/or appeal your case if you are in a goddamned coffin built at a cyber punk-rave.
If you are going to insist that people lie/stand in coffins please at least kill them first.

You act like we are working with an infallible justice system.........this is making me angry. What an astonishingly terrible idea.

Shame on you.

And you know what? I always respected you on this board. Where in the hell is this coming from? Must be a very dark place.

Reading for comprehension
Hardly a "futuristic Iron Maiden".
As an alternative to wading into them with clubs and tazers, when they have to be subdued.

I think you're misinterpreting that image cicero, that's a screencap from the movie Minority Report. If you haven't seen it, the prisons of the future are actually something like cryostasis. The tubes feed, bath, and monitor the health of inmates while they are in a comatose-like state. Special suits also keep their bodies from withering away due to lack of movement. It's all futuretech, but it was one of the first things that got me thinking about alternative prison types.

What's the point of that? From the prisoner's point of view, they climb into the tank, sleep a bit, and then they climb out again and are set free. They don't experience the loss of freedom or the loss of time. There's little punishment there. Sure, society will benefit because the dangerous prisoners are kept out of society, but if the prisoners will be released again, there's no punishment component. Also no rehabilitation.

The prisons of the future should prepare the prisoner to be released back into society and give that prisoner the tools to succeed once that happens.

I should have prefaced the statement about prisons of the future with 'in the movie'. They did say something in the movie about stasis being 'like a 20 year nightmare', but you're right in that it does seem to lack a component of punishment. Then again, most of our sentences now are cut very short because of a lack of space. If you ended up waking up 15 years older for committing a burglary it might have more of an impact then you'd think. The 'punishment' would be sort of like society denying the prisoner an enormous chunk of his or her life. But again, no rehabilitation (not that the current system does it anyway).

Oh, I know we are talking about "in the movie" but the movie had the freedom to come up with a magical solution to the prison situation we have today, and in that magic, they found no room for preparing the prisoners to return to society. It's kind of telling that they gave so little thought to that, just like the system today gives so little thought to it. From a purely practical perspective, it's in society's best interests to make that the number one priority of the prison system for any prisoners who will eventually go free.

You wake up and everyone you know is either really old or dead. You can't communicate well, have no cultural references, etc. and if yourj brain were active the whole time, it would really suck.

It would also likely remove from already dangerously out of control psyches, what societal strictures they had kept hold of. If their familes and friends are long gone, what reason do they have for compliance in any societal norms? Their reference point and support network (which carries with it its own notions of acceptable behaviour) would be gone.

I was commenting on the photo from that future crime movie and connecting it with his verbiage.
Thanks Bruce. Hey! I can read and look at petty pitures.
:thumb:

Why did he post the picture and say he was "working towards it" when it contradicted his description?
This is less a "reading comprehension" problem than a "sorting through contradictory information" problem, IE a "posting clearly" problem.

Kind of like what I was trying to say....torture, brain damaging, time suspending, and once again......no rehabilitation. Can we put "correctional" back in the term "correctional facility"? No. There's a part of us that wants to punish, for the punished to be marked, and criminal forever?
Sorry for taking what you said too heavy 9th, but CO2 causes too much brain damage. Look at the after effects of Carbon Monoxide poisoning and you get the same symptomatic problems. Yes, even death.

Maybe we can try something that serves decent results rather than a mobius strip of crime, torture, and incompetency.

I'm confused as to where your references to CO2 keep coming from. I mentioned NO2 (nitrous oxide) in my post as one possibility of sedation in the case of a violent inmate.
I suppose I did leave a logic gap between my two posts. The first was a description of something we could implement with current technology levels that directly addressed a short list of specific issues within the current system, but certainly not all. The second was a look at the far future with technology that won't be viable for another 20-40 years. I also should have clarified the specific use of storage type prisons. I can't realistically see it being the best option except in cases like extremely high risk or violent offenders who are serving very long sentences. If someone is serving 40-life then no matter what you do, by the time they step back onto the street (if ever) they will know nothing but prison life and society no matter what you try to teach them inside. Rehabilitation is essentially pointless there.

How would they do that? Specifically.

So you would do it, if we had the technology, today? If so, doesn't that negate the discussion about the two different things you were posting about, and return us to justifying the scenario that a lack of technology alone prevents you from advocating?

It's still what could be done now and what might be done in the future as separate possibilities.

As outlined by a lengthy text description, coupled with a disconnected image that relates to a concept which is not explained at all. Confusing.

Ooooh. It's not as as bad as I thought..........Just Nitrous. Nitrous good- rehabilitation pointless......
9th, where were you when I was 19?!?
lol!!!
Ya know what? Where did CO2 come from? I am kind of busy- sorry 9th sometimes I'm a skimmer....

Rehabilitation runs deeper than current fads and trends...you can be rehabilitated and not know jack about myspace. It's the difference between learning how to use a computer and stealing one. I wouldn't ever say rehabilitation is ever pointless for anyone.
That includes myself.....using the true definition rehabilitation I'm sure there are things even I could use rehabilitation for.


I still don't think your pods would serve a purpose. I think it's cruel, unusual, and pointless. Yes, again, like a futuristic Iron Maiden. Just because the scars are psychological doesn't make them scars any less.

I don't know. But we were talking in terms of a sf movie that takes place in the future, so maybe if they adjusted the tachyon pulses so they were out of phase with the nanotube delivery system, the pulses could stimulate the neocortex of the prisoners and cause a behavioral modification. Something like that.

If we were to talk about the prison system today, I'm still no expert, but I would start by separating the violent criminals from the rest, and then put the rest in a vocational education program. A substance abuse program would probably be a good idea for most as well. The violent ones are a little trickier. They shouldn't be released back into society if they are still violent. If that means throwing away the key, then so be it. But even the violent ones should have an attempt made to rehabilitate them. That might mean talk therapy while in prison or some other therapy to try to straighten them out followed by a vocational training once they are no longer violent. We spend enough money per prisoner already. Spending a bunch more to rehabilitate them might just lower the recidivism rate down to the point where we would save money in the long run.

I don't see how torturing a prisoner and then releasing them back into society will prevent future crimes any more than what happens now. If you tell and show someone that society hates them, that person will be more likely to fight back and rebel against society.

Working to get the criminals to be productive members of society should be the goal of prisons and not to keep them away from society for a length of time just so they come out hating society even more than they came in. A lot of prisons have many books for prisoners to read and learn (some are actually being banned now) and if we expand on that, some good could actually come out of the prison system instead of what we have now. It will be much more work and there will be failures but I actually see some worth in doing this as opposed to 9th's plan.

Oh that's so sweet...you define 20-40 years as far future. Aww bless.

It won't... kill them now.

In order for criminals to become productive members of society, they must want to do so. We can talk with them, provide counselors to give them a chance to work out issues or grudges, but unless you can get them to want it, you might as well set fire to your money. If you had to make some educated guesses about what makes a person not want to be a productive member of society, what would you say pierce?
As for the length of prison term, how would altering that affect how they view society? If a person is so delusional that doing the time for their crime makes them hate their victims even more, then we're screwed. If we don't punish them, they continue to commit crimes. If we punish them, they get out and commit worse crimes. Your only option would be to either execute them or lock them up and forget about them.

I need to hear the answer to one main question. How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners? Are they misguided delinquents who are misguided and can be 'shown the light' of honest labor and contribution to society? Do you see them as stupid clods who never learned where to draw the line and need to be reeducated? What about people of normal intelligence who know what they're doing and see it as a lifestyle?

They are generally people who have committed crimes. Beyond that it's hard to generalise when you are talking about somany individuals.

I think drug abuse is the main problem the majority (or if not majority then a very large portion) have. They are drug addicts who committed crimes to support their habit. They are drug dealers who are trying to live their misguided version of the American dream. I think for many, possibly most, of the prisoners in this country, a drug rehab program is a huge part of the solution.

Yep- right on Glatt. Except, as in the case of my brother, he is disabled with a severe mental disability and he keeps getting picked up and taken to jail instead of a nuthouse where he could get treated for it. He is a severe paranoid schizophrenic. His "crimes" are benign...his handicaps are severe.
Our jails are full of addicts and mentally handicapped people or a combination thereof.
Whaddaya know...they are 10 times worse when they get out. Why? Because people like my brother weren't a damned criminal in the first place, handicapped, and sent to a hostile environment. He can't even put it together for his own defense!!! He's guilty always by reason of insanity even when he's innocent. He cannot even communicate his own innocence! Because he doesn't know what happened!!!!
The crazy guy obviously started the trouble......bullshit. He has actually been bullied, victimized, and can't even comprehend his own innocence nor voice it in some situations. Off to jail with ya- just because you are the one that's obviously broken. Has nothing to do with the events or facts....he just seems like he needs to be locked up.....I know they are thinking- he must be on some heavy shit...No...he's handicapped....


I also know a guy that was a little slow.....he kept getting picked up for over-reacting in his own defense, he wasn't so stupid that he didn't know that people were making fun of him and a lot of assholes were....instead of delivering him to a costly facility- they kept taking him to jail too.
Instead of hitting the people that were being jerks he would hit a news stand or something else out of impotent rage.....I think the people making fun of him should have gone to jail instead. Talk about baiting someone weaker until they over-react just cuz ya can. Fuck 'tards......

Christ, Cicero you must have very little faith in the judicial system by now.

And you don't think many criminals wouldn't want to be a productive member of society if they had the chance? As Dana pointed out, you are generalizing all criminals into one group which is about as far from the truth as you can get. Some people, I actually know one person that almost did this, commit crimes out of desperation and are very moral people when they are not pushed to the edge and others turn to drug dealing because it is more profitable than working a minimum wage job. Are these people bad, no, just that they just choose a life of crime because a life without crime is not reasonable or worth it.

Hopelessness, social environment, and that a life of crime is more reasonable and profitable for the non-anti social people. Anti-social behavior can not be changed so you have to a separate group fro that. This starts to get into the topic of how poverty affects crime levels.

I never said change the length of time.

It is how they are doing time, not the actual process of being punished for crimes. If you look at prisoners right now, many are turning to religious extremism as a way to make their lives worthwhile. That gives a very good insight about how criminals view their lives, hopelessness usually, and if you take away that hopelessness, things can change for the better. If you take two people that committed the same crime with the same social background prior to the criminal activity and lock them up, one with a feeling of hopelessness and one with a feeling that you can get back on your feet if you choose too when released, the outcome of the two people will most certainly be different when they are both let out. What I am proposing is to change prisons from a general feeling of hopelessness to rehabilitation so they can back on track when they leave and you have not addressed that point. Of course some people will not choose to change, but separation of those two groups should be relatively easy and those two groups can get separate punishments.

You are making an assumption that those are the only two options...

You can't clump all criminals into one group or even a majority because there probably isn't a majority. There are very smart criminals that have chosen a life a crime because it suit them best, some are stupid clots, some are anti-social (link to article on real anti-social behavior) in nature and are hopeless to reeducate, some are misguided, some are there because of accidents and so on. There should be a system to separate the ones that can be helped from the ones that can't and work on both groups separately.

The best thing we could do for the prison system would be to decriminalized illegal drugs.

There are also, as Cicero pointed out, many people in prison who by rights should have been given psychiatric care at some stage and indeed many who have. A lot of people are in prison because they are simply not equipped to deal with things that most of us deal with routinely. Such as the guy who understood he was being taunted but didn't have the capacity to deal with it in a societally acceptable way.

There is also a much higher rate of illiteracy amongst the prison population than amongst the general population. There is a recognised pattern where a child living in a chaotic environment (generally speaking poverty makes for a chaotic and insecure existence) or with dyslexia, finds themself falling behind their peers at school. This is a particularly bad problem amongst boys. They quickly learn to mask their inability with 'bad' behaviour, get bored in lessons because they're no longer able to follow it, and act up even more. This is often then followed by truancy and a sense of social dislocation.

Many of these lads end up in trouble very young. We see more and more 12 and 13 year olds entering the judicial system and the profile I just gave you accounts for a ridiculously high proportion of them. A friend of mine (my ex team-leader) teaches literacy/basic skills in Strangeways Prison (one of our more notorious facilities in Manchester). Most of the lads she deals with have very low literacy levels, with several being unable even to recognise their names on a register (a standard pre-entry level test).

It's hard to live in the modern world if you cannot read or write adequately. How do you fill out a job application form? How do you access health care? The stigma attached those with literacy problems is huge. They've often spent their entire life being told either by parents, teachers or fellow pupils that they are stupid or 'thick'. Much of the world is closed to you if you cannot read above the level of a seven year old.

If on top of this difficulty you are surrounded by a culture that holds a tacit acceptance of some types of crime and violence (the subcultures that exist in grey little pockets of wealthy countries) being drawn into that as a way of navigating the world, and possibly commanding the respect of your fellows is as likely as not.

Add to that the many people who fill western jails for minor crimes which cause nobody any physical harm or endangerment and really, it is difficult to come up with picture that the majority of prisoners adhere to.

Most do have the opportunity, both before they went to jail and again afterwards. I'm talking about convincing the people who have decided to turn to crime because of more money/fewer responsibilities or whatever. I'm not talking about those who no possibility of ever being part of society which are basically the ones with severe disorders that need a separate facility.

These people are not an issue at all. I'd be willing to bet that a prison system full of them would be a walk in the park to manage.

As for hopelessness, I'm not sure of the details but don't we already offer life management advise and such to inmates in all but maximum security? You can't just 'take away' someone's hopelessness with positive talk. You can offer a library and online courses to those willing to make a change in their life but that's about it.

I'd be willing to debate the issue of decriminalizing drugs from a practical perspective, but we'll need a new thread for that. I won't say where I stand on it in here to avoid a drift.

Separation is a good idea, and would go a very long way towards solving lots of problems. It's probably extremely hard to do in real life, but that's partially why I think prisons should not be built around large common areas. I have a tiny bit more on this in a different thread I think.

An opportunity and a realistic opportunity are much different things.

So you realize that the fault is within society and not the individual? And don't respond with that choice crap, be very careful when you judge an individual without any idea of the pressures to make the decision that he or she made.

That is one reason why my view of prisons will never be possible for a long time because one, it is more reasonable to go to a life of crime for some people than it is to follow the law and two, inner city society is a breeding group for criminal activity and that is institutionalized.

In order for my idea to reach its full potential, the two problems I have stated would have to be fixed first and that is why prisons are not my main concern right now.

Just because you have something doesn't mean they are even close to its highest potential.

Of course another thing you could do to tackle hopelsssness is not cram them into overcrowded cells, feed them poorly, and turn a blind eye to the bullying, phsyical intimidation, violence, humiliation and rape. You could also make sure the people guarding them aren't sadists. Many good people work in prisons, but many are also attracted to the job because its a power trip. Whatever their crime and whatever people think about their deserved punishment, the plain facts are that prisoners are one of society's most vulnerable groups. They are confined and under the direct power of other human beings 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. If they are being subjected to bullying and physical attack, what really can they do?

It would probably also alleviate hopelessness if such policies as 'three strikes and you're out' were shoved up the arses of the people who dreamt them up.

Explain why you think most people in the prison system have no 'realistic' chance of normalcy. I originally said most, you haven't clarified further yet.

Hells no, absolutely not. The individual must always be responsible for his or her actions, if that were to change then I could tie the Constitution and Bill of Rights into knots three ways to sunday.

I have no ability to empathize or to even have knowledge of a group I'm not a member of? That doesn't fly in other discussions, and it doesn't fly here either. I can empathize with a great deal of many problems people face. If I see a man charged with assault after walking in on the other man sleeping with his wife, I can empathize with the pain and rage that he was feeling.

Now we're sitting in limbo land. There's no way to pursue that unless you say why they're not effective right now. If it was because of your two previous statements then we've reached a conclusion. You say that the prison system cannot perform its ideal function until two of the largest and most embedded problems in society are fixed, and I agree with you. I believe that we can make improvements on the current system in the meantime, and I'm sure you'd probably agree to that as well.

And it carries a lot of weight with the parole board.

You basically have a scarlet letter to carry for the rest of your life. It is much harder to gain employment, the psychological effects of being in jail and being separated from friends and family for so long, and there are many smaller effects it has on a person. Many of the people that are in jail never had a great chance for employment opportunities in the first place and now it is even harder for them to get a job.

Even when it serves the individual's best interest to commit crime? I don't think you understand, or care, about the catch 22 a lot of people are in. They are fucked if they don't live a life of crime and if they don't want to live paycheck to paycheck with no stability or hope for the future, they have to break the law with extreme consequences.

Do you have any empathy for the catch 22 a lot of people are in?

Yes, I believe we can make small improvements but I'm guessing our idea of improvements are different.

I don't think that is the kind of religious they were thinking of because some religious books are being banned from jails.

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2007/09/12/72163315

Actually after editing law-books, manuals, and online resources for a living, compounded with getting to see things in my personal life as they play out...I would say I have absolutely no faith and not only that-no proof that the judicial system works. Excuse me, I mis-spoke, it only works for a small segment of the population...who it was fashioned to protect.
Ha Ha! One of my favorite comedians dropped out of pre-law. Had to get a sense of humor first I suppose.
:D

The three most terrible words in the english language: Trial By Jury

http://www.apple.com/trailers/universal/letsgotoprison/

I can offer a similar one:

Closed Tribunal

I have a similar orientation to the way my country deals with asylum. It really doesn't take a lot of interraction with the asylum and appeals process to see that system is fundamentally and desperately flawed, and geared primarily to the denial of asylum. I'm not going to go into the details of why because i would just end up in a three page rant. But even the stuff that's put there to safeguard and provide for them during their wait (given it's ilegal for them to work) is deeply, and deliberately problematic. But most importantly, the bare faced denial of proof that in the judicial system would be considered sound, as a mechanism for denying asylum, just robs me of any faith in the system as a means of identifying refugees (the planet's most vulnerable group). And the routine use of fear as a way of keeping them off balance. I am deeply shamed by the way my country treats those who run to us. I've verged into a rant there...I'll try to contain it. I know for a fact that many asylum seekers are mentally and sometimes physically brutalised by the system they have to navigate. Far too many.

I get the impression, despite the raging arguments over illegal Mexican immigrants, that the USA does not treat refugees and desperate strangers so shamefully as my country does. Am I right or wrong in that impression?

I live right by a Somalian neighborhood which is made up of a lot of immigrants/refugees to escape the violence and it is basically just segregated from the rest of the city. They don't really mess with other people's business and no one really messes with their's (at least from what I've seen, I could be way off).

It is labeled a bad neighborhood but if you go down the main street it is actually pretty cool, feels like an entirely different country.

The topic of this thread is actually about an immigrant and her son. Not sure if that helps.
Not sure if she was targeted because of it.

Oh I daresay many face problems, but I am talking about systemised brutality.

Example: In one of the holding centres where those who are considered a 'risk' in terms of vanishing into the underworld are housed (and some who've been marked for deportation) often for weeks or months at a time, it would appear at first glance to be a pretty reasonable place. OK, it has fences and bars, it's institutional in character and the inmates can't leave; but there are facilities within to create a self contained environment (a barbers, a recreation area etc).

What a first glance won't show you is the fact that the wardens routinely use 'physical restraint' and abusive, racist language. Inmates caught "Fence Watching" are deemed an escape risk and are put into the extra secure unit along with the suicide risks. Given that the compound is surrounded by fencing, the act of "Fence Watching" is very difficult to avoid: it basically consitutes looking in the direction of the fence for more than a few minutes. If you are outside, bored and staring into space, you could find yourself confined in, effectively a secure cell.

At nights the lights are left on in the cells/dorms. The inmates sleep with their blankets over their faces to block out the light. Because of a number of suicides, the guards check on all the inmates every half hour, throughout the night. They do this by pulling the blanket away and tapping, the inmates forehead with their forefinger...thereby waking them. Every half hour.

Now, the 'Fence Watching' thing is generally only applied to particular ethnic groups, though that's not how it's recorded. It's recorded in terms of particularly high escape risks, but they decide who is likely to be a high escape risk based on certain criteria: if you are a young Eastern European male (particularly if you are Romany ) then you are considered by the guards a high risk.

The blame for such 'failures' is laid at the door of those guarding the inmates. But there is a woeful lack of will, in the department which governs over them, to resolve the problem.

The half hourly wakenings is something a good friend of mine was subjected to for three and a half weeks. He is a very gentle and quiet man, who if you met him would seem much younger than his 31 years, but who has a kind of quiet grace. He was in that centre because of a mix up between his name and another similarly named asylum seeker who had run out of appeals. The wardens spoke to him like he was the worst kind of criminal and the most stupid child. He was pushed, shoved and strip searched after every visit he received from family, friends or solicitor. He had lost a great deal of weight when he came out and suffered from night terrors for months after. He then sank into a deep depression and ended up on anti-depressants and sleeping tablets.

He is an asylum seeker. If you had to guess, what do you imagine his previous experiences of police, prisons and government officials had hitherto been? Now, it was eventually sorted out and the mistake 'rectified'. He was released....and another man with a similar name was pulled in. Failed in his appeals, but nonetheless as likely as not to have unpleasant associations with police and government authority. He'll be woken up every half hour through the night, given sly punches when the guards know the cctv isn't covering that part of the corridor, and spoken to like he's utterly and fundamentally worthless. And he will be entirely at the mercy of people who have no sympathy for the terror and torture he may have experienced in other jails in another country.

If he's lucky the country he is supposed to be removed to will be deemed unsafe by both the Foreign Office and the Home Office and he will spend many months in the detention facility. If he's really lucky, the country is safe and he is not being returned into danger. If he's unlucky the Foreign Office and the Home Office will contradict each other and he may find himself returned to a very dangerous place, where his particular group are in particularly high danger (as happened with quite a few Iraqi refugees).

Sorry....I did the ranting thing again huh?

Interesting - the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Would he have committed this crime if he had been raised in a different environment?

Sad - this kid who plead out will be out of jail in 20 years (possibly less) knowing nothing of life but how to be a better criminal when he gets out.

I'm curious, when is that, long-run?
I can't wait for this.