Just like in Vietnam. Two years ago, these numbers would be appalling. Today they are 'second page' news stories. Today nine Americans were killed in Iraq. Yesterday's number was five. Same numbers from 1960s Vietnam. Eventually, numbers like 20 and 80 dead per day will become situation normal. Just more lessons from history when the US unilaterally attacks another sovereign nation without a 'smoking gun'.

Another lesson from history. We will let these death numbers increase for maybe six or more years. After all, American attack Vietnam in 1965. But it took more than 5 years for a real anti-war movement to start. It took a Tet Offensive some 7 years later to really bring most Americans to start asking questions. But here we are again, 30+ years later. Too many who did not live through Vietnam now have the 'blood and guts', 'kill the enemy', 'might is right' attitude.

Yesterday, George Jr said we are winning the war. Just like Johnson and Nixon repeatedly said 30+ years ago. History just repeating itself. See that light at the end of the tunnel? Today we call it an exit strategy? Both are called fiction.

Its easier to waste good Americans rather than accept reality. After all, that is exactly what those 1960 neocons (back then called Hawks) advocated. Status quo is good. Means justifies the ends. Ends justifies the means. All nonsense so that we will not admit who the enemy really is. We have met the enemy; and he is us. 14 more dead in that past two days - well after "Misson Accomplished" was declared.

Bianry World verses Ternary World
 

Newsweek wrote a short article relating how Gen Miller was associated with prisoner abuse. A minor paragraph quoted a military source about tossing Korans down a toilet. Other military and government sources did not deny or object to that story. Neither did the White House. Later, this got accelerated by a Pakistani cricket athlete into riots. Newsweek retracts the article. That proves the Koran was not tossed down a toilet?

All true if using binary logic. The world is not binary. The world is ternary. Because Newsweek retracted the article is proof to extremists that it did not happen. But in a ternary world, a Newsweek retraction just means not enough evidence has been obtained. It says nothing about the event. An event that most likely occurred cannot be proved sufficient for Newsweek publication.

These type of accusations are repeated by other ex-prisoners and by at least one former translator. This from The Economist of 21 May 2005: Why? Evidence of this and others abuses even caused Southern Command to investigate? Meanwhile Central Command could not be bothered to investigate proven murders in Afghanistan.

Don't forget the women who claimed to spread menstrual blood on a prisoner's face knowing full well that this is an attack on religious beliefs. Why would a Koran in the toilet be any different?

Those Korans were most likely thrown in the toilet. Actions consistent with America's attitude in Guantanamo and Abu Ghriad - where General Miller took charge. Sufficient evidence to meet the credibility criteria of CBN, Rush Limbaugh, or Fox News. But not enough evidence to be published in Newsweek and other more responsible publications.

There is more than enough evidence to indicate Korans were thrown down the toilet. Not enough evidence to be published in responsible publications. How many Korans were thrown down the toilet? How many Arabs were tortured to death by Americans? They are gooks. They don't matter. Reason enough to ignore such questions. Good Morning Vietnam.

Those living in a binary world - and this is convenient to extremists - would point to a Newsweek retraction and say it did not happen. Those living in a ternary world are asking what else did Americans do after torture was authorized.

It's no different at all. Both actions are harmless.

However, you do end up pissing off your plumber and laundry guy.

I find it sadly ironic that here are dozens of us chiming in on this "messing with the Koran" and upsetting Muslims, but no-one is the least upset that these fanatics are kidnapping, torturing and killing civilians in Iraq. No Western media source expresses outrage over these heinous, cowardly crimes, which happen almost daily, but when a report surfaces about how America is treating its prisoners, in what appear to be relatively isolated events, the whole world goes absolutely bananas. Crowds gather and cause death and destruction over these desecrations, but the kidnappees are just forgotten about as not worth getting all lathered up about. The usual hypocrisy, I see.

I suspect the number of captives "tortured to death" by Americans pales with the numbers tortured for prolonged periods by Saddam and his henchmen, and the kidnappers that exist today. Hmmm, I would rather have 50 bibles cut up and flushed than to have one nutball cut my head off with a knife...

What you find "ironic", I find "untrue". To each his own, I guess.
Events with photographs are isolated, not events.

As for the higher standard America is held to, would you have it any other way? Would you like it if these stories came out, and people said, "Oh, well, that's America. What do you expect?" Would you prefer for people to ignore it because they have no reasonable expectation that we would take steps to stop it from happening?

I hold my country to a higher standard than others. As should every citizen of every country.

To you a Koran down the toilet or women's menstrual blood on a face is harmless. Tell that to the many people who died in Afghanistan riots because of harmless actions. Firing all those policemen and soldiers in Iraq was also harmless. Clearly violating the teachings of Sze Tzu (500 BC) are just harmless actions.

So how do you explain the nine dead American soldiers and Marine today because Bremmer did something harmless? The Iraqi insurgency, made possible by and then created by American actions, was just something harmless by Bremmer? Clearly it was just as harmless to 'burn the village to save it'. Clearly those lines not to be crossed, as taught by history, are only arbitrary. We can move them at any time because we are righteous Christian Americans?

It is harmless to change our standards of conduct when convenient. Tell that to today's nine dead American soldiers and Marine. Tell it to so many dead Afghanistan civilians. Tell it to the many Americans who will die due to 'no respect' for another people and their culture.

Harmless. What the White House also called it when they changed standards to authorized torture. At what point do we stop moving this line that separates us from Saddam or Hitler?

It shows once again that they will be the enemy regardless. There will always be something about the US to rally the forces of Islam around because they need that.
The communists and every tin horned dictator have always needed an enemy to focus the attention of their minions away from their own problems and toward the group good, fighting fill in blank.
Christians seem to settle for "evil" or "the devil" when there's no enemy more apparent. :(

Well, at least wealthier. ;)

Tell that to the many people who died in Afghanistan riots because of harmless actions.

Nobody died because a Koran was flushed down a toilet. We don't even know if it really happened. What killed those people was religious extremism.

One can always depend on Christopher Hitchens to explain things

Mark Steyn points out who really started it and why:

It shows once again that we will be the enemy regardless. There will always be something about the rest of the world to rally the forces of fearmongering war profiteers around because they need that.
The Neocon pseudo-patriots and every cuckholded administration have always needed an enemy to focus the attention of their minions away from their own problems and toward the group good, fighting fill in blank.
Every religion in the world seem[s] to settle for "evil" or "the devil" when there's no enemy more apparent. :(

xoB, thank you for letting me use your thoughts as a starting point for my post. With these few edits, I haven't changed the truth of the post at all. Especially the first sentence. It takes two, brotha, it takes two.

Your broad generalizations can be supported by actual incidents. As can my equally broad generalizations. And like all broad generalizations, the broader they are the less precisely they apply. The behavior of the mobs in Afghanistan is criminal. Just that. Well, maybe you can throw in a fig leaf of religious indignation. But if the same behavior was demonstrated by Christians, would you say the same of them? I doubt it.

Islam didn't riot, people did. To tar all of Islam like this based on the actions of a small number of people relative to the the population of believers is misinformed or lazy or deluded and I have never seen evidence of any of those traits in your writing. So must naturally conclude that you've made a mistake, which I wish to correct:

Islam is not the enemy of the US.

Agreed?

Huzzah!:standing ovation: :raucous unending applause:

And so you have avoided the bottom line question. Why do you avoid this question? Throwing the Koran down a toilet is simply another example of harmless - when only an American perspective matters. After all, they are only gooks. Right? Their perspective is completely irrelevant. Korans down the toilet are harmless. FISHing is acceptable. Hanging people from the ceiling with hands tied behind their backs is harmless. Murdering prisoners and then not even doing an investigation is harmless. Torturing prisoners in Guantanamo and Abu Ghriad is harmless.

At what point do we stop moving this line that separates us from Saddam or Hitler? In Vietnam, we never stopped moving that line to justify a massacre of hundreds in My Lai. So acceptable that soldiers who reported the massacre were investigated. Now that you regard a Koran in the toilet as harmless. Now that you regard menstrual blood on the face as harmless. At what point, UT, do you think we should stop moving this line?

The ends justify the means? Good Morning Vietnam ... all over again.