Not entirely sure about these statistics, but it does show a growing trend.

Boy, Confucius better keep his day job.

Oh, and thanks for bolding the important part. I was really scratchin' my head till I saw the bold part.

oh please.

Such as evolutionistic origins?

A swing and a miss...

1) I don't believe that there is enough information to point to what, if any, evolutionistic origins that you so demonize exist,
2) I specified revelatory information, not derived or theoretical.

and look at the places Islam is on the rise......I rest my case.

No, evolution is based on deriving a theory from evidence using scientific method.

I'm sensing sarcasm may be near, I better be wary...

OC & pro-religionists:

There is a very simple way to explain the conclusion that religion = load of crap.

There is more than one religion. (Bold, underline, highlight, etc.)

If there is more than one religion, how can any one be right? Clearly we have just created stories to help us make sense of the world, and I'm not saying this is wrong - it is much more pleasant than facing the realities of life. Still, the truth will out, and when something terrible happens to you, you will doubt your mischievous god. Either that or you will blame yourself, think it happened to 'teach you' something and throw yourself deeper into an ignorant faith that prevents you from seeing the real cause of your distress.

I hope I made that clear. We are all the same, us people. One species. No emotional, fear-led story can detract from that.

Easily, by the rest being wrong.

Look, we keep going in circles on this. I believe what I believe because of my experiences, not because I am delusional. I asked, God answered, I believe. Atheists don't ask, don't want to believe, wouldn't believe even if they had irrefutable evidence. Why? Because they hate the idea of God. If God exists, that means there is someone out there more important than them, which utterly demolishes their worldview. Satan pees his pants laughing every time an atheist utters their "free thought" nonsense.

We're all the same, Christian, atheist, Buddhist. Believing in Christ doesn't make me better than TS, DanaC, Catwoman or anyone else. In fact, they and any other number of people are probably better than me in most if not all ways. But I recognize my sin, realize who it's offending, and ask forgiveness from him. How is that "throwing myself deeper into an ignorant faith that prevents me from seeing the real cause of my distress?" The cause of my distress is sin - you can't get any simpler or more fundamental than that.

This business of being a Christian to keep from going to our imaginary hell.....stow it. I will save us all alot more rambling posts by saying this once - believing in Christ is what gives me peace and eliminates my fear. The difference between you and me is, I admit I *have* fear, that I don't have all the answers and need help from God.



:P on a short fuse this a.m...spent all last night dreaming that I was running back and forth from the airport terminal to the parking garage. I kept forgetting stuff. Never did get on the plane.

Completely circular but correct on so many levels.

The only problem with that is deciding how to differentiate an unsubstantiated aural hallucination from the Voice of God(tm).

That's a rather cavalier handling of someone's opinion on deity and personal worth don't you think?

So what you're saying is that the only reason you believe in Jesus is because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside?

Anybody want to start a thread where everybody tells about their running dream?

Maybe. As cavalier as "pfft. Anyone who believes in something that I haven't personally experienced is 'ignorant'"

I rarely, if ever, feel warm and fuzzy. You'll have to reread what I've said about why I believe, but what I get out of it is peace in the face of hard times. When something happens that I have no control over, I don't ask big bubba Jesus to come in and kick ass for me, I ask for the wisdom to react correctly and the peace to get me through it in as good a shape as possible.

I've never heard the Voice(tm). I've been strongly led by conscience to do certain things, even when they seem illogical at the time. That 'conscience' is what I believe to be the holy spirit. It's different than the normal conscience we think of that tells us "you shouldn't run that stop sign, that's against the law." It's more along the line of intuition, but with a deeper subtext - this so-called voice never tells you to do anything that's against the word of God, and your immediate instinct is to ignore it, because it almost always requires you to do something that you selfishly don't want to do.

It has nothing to do with self-validation or comfort, everything to do with doing what God wants. When a Christian does what God wants, they get peace. It's a good trade.

You will note that I have omitted 'from God' from your quote, Mr Noodle. Because until you said that, you were bang on.

People are afraid. That's why they have religion and relationships and children and war and suicide, etc etc etc. First step is to acknowledge the fear, which you have done. Second step is to accept it and go a little deeper into it. Almost no one gets to this stage (it's too scary). Third step is to realise it's empty - there's nothing here, which is very hard to accept. Final step is to accept there is nothing. THEN you can start to enjoy your life, and not be afraid.

Religion etc. fills the gap because it is a distraction, but it's not actually addressing your fear (if your fear was truly elimintated, you wouldn't need your religion).

You don't need help from 'god' or anyone else. You have all the answers already. The voices you hear are your own.

TS has adressed all my other points.

and still we argue the unproveable.

cat - do you realise that your scenario could be just as much an invention of a mind that doesn't want to believe a higher power than themselves exists?

that is not very different than what you are sure those with faith do - pick an ending (there is a higher power) and then choose or create a scenario to reach that conclusion.

you can't prove yours, noodle can't prove his.

one thing i notice *zips up flame retardent suit* those who are sure religion is for the birds are generally more insulting in explaining their logic than those who believe in God. to me it seems that Mrnoodle should be more emotionally entangled in his defense - he has his eternal soul on the block, after all. you and TS have absolutely nothing at risk if you are right, so why do you care so much if someone believes otherwise?

Yes, yes, but I'm talking about a real relationship with a real being whom I have experienced not physically or emotionally, but spiritually. This is the disconnect for us. You deny the existence of something that I utterly know to be real. I vouch for something that you have absolutely no grounds for belief in.

Therefore you see that the notion that "religion fills the gap because it's a distraction...the voices you hear are your own" has no reality for me, because I know it to be patently false. I don't wish it were false, I don't think it's false, I know it. Of course, you can say that's just a sign of how deeply deluded I am, but consider this: the only argument you have to offer is *lack* of experience. Atheists have an easy time of it in these arguments - they don't have to defend anything, they just have to poke and prod. "Show me" doesn't work unless you're willing to see.

I don't hate the idea of God, I just find it somewhat silly. On the other hand I know that there are many people out there who need no magic to be more important than me.

that's a start :thumbsup: