The Cellar - Fast and Furious

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- - Fast and Furious (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=25379)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 744823)

So the latest twist is the fact that Obama increased funding for Operation Gunrunner, the anti-trafficking program started by Bush is somehow scandalous? Shame on Obama!

And a speech that Holder made in April of 09 is taking credit for Operation Fast and Furious which didnt begin until later that year?

Now that is a stretch only a true wing nut could believe.

And more paranoia about taking away the guns from law abiding citizens. :tinfoil:

I am beginning to think Obama knows all about it. Hopefully we can come up with something to impeach his happy ass with.
:D

BUSTED!!!!!!!!

Yea, there is no plan to derail Second Amendment rights..... sure.

Quote:

"Internal ATF emails seem to suggest that ATF agents were counseled to highlight a link between criminals and certain semi-automatic weapons in order to bolster a case for a rule like the one the DOJ announced yesterday [Monday]."

Townhall has obtained the email which states "Can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same FfL and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks Mark R. Chait Assistant Director Field Operations."

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepa...te_gun_control

Quote:

Once again, liberals and the Obama Administration are focused on guns rather than criminals and federal government incomptence. Operation Fast and Furious is looking more and more like a set up from the beginning to push Obama and Holder's radical anti-Second Amendment agenda as they used law abiding gun shop owners to enable government officals to break the law, then turned around and blamed the very same gun shops for illegal gun trafficking, despite those shops being forced by ATF to help ATF agents carry out Operation Fast and Furious, and now, those shops are being punished through new Justice Department gun control measures. Obama and Holder both have long records of being outspoken opponents of gunrights and both support the reinstatement of the "assault" rifle ban, better described as a ban on semi-automatic rifles. From the June issue of Townhall Magazine:

President Obama is calling for "commonsense" gun reforms, but as a man with a long a history of acting to limit Second Amendment rights and advocating gun control who tapped an attorney general with the same ideology -- and possibly the biggest gun trafficking scandal in U.S. history with his name written all over it -- is the president really calling for reforms or more government control?

As an Illinois state senator, Obama endorsed and spoke in support of an outright ban on ownership of all handguns and favored the licensing and registering of gun owners. Before his run for public office in 1996, Obama filled out a questionnaire expressing his support for a ban on the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 745360)

BUSTED!!!!!!!!

Yea, there is no plan to derail Second Amendment rights..... sure.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepa...te_gun_control

There you go, again. Your paranoia over a non-existing conspiracy to take away guns from law abiding citizens. :tinfoil:

These new regulations simply require dealers in border states to report the sale of two or more semi automatic rifles within five consecutive business days, specifically .22 caliber rifles with detachable ammunition magazines like AK 47's or AR 15's.

Do not such requirements already exist for multiple sale of handguns? So why not weapons like AK-47s?

Why should dealers not be required to report sales like this?

Quote:

On Dec. 11, 2009, 23-year-old Uriel Patino walked into a shopping-center gun shop in Glendale, Ariz., and allegedly bought 20 AK-47 assault rifles. A month later, he allegedly bought 10 more on a single day from the same shop – Lone Wolf Trading – and two weeks after that bought another 15.

By February 2010, authorities say Patino had become a regular customer, hitting the store every few days. On Feb. 15 alone, court documents say he bought 40 AK-47s.

But ATF is powerless to immediately stop these sales, said the bureau’s former official, Bouchard, because there’s nothing illegal about buying a large number of assault weapons.

“It doesn’t look right, but under the law, there’s nothing wrong with it,” he said.

Bouchard said ATF doesn’t have enough agents to put every straw buyer under surveillance, so getting a conviction often means getting a confession. In Fast and Furious, the investigative trail eventually allowed agents able to get wiretaps on Patino and use them to try to prosecute the person orchestrating the scheme. Patino was ultimately charged with 33 others. But the probe dragged on for more than a year.

A straw buyer must sign a form at the gun shop declaring that they are buying the guns for themselves. Lying on the form is a crime. But in order to prove the lie, a prosecutor often must prove what the straw buyer was thinking when he or she bought the gun. Unless that straw buyer immediately delivers the weapon to someone prohibited from purchasing a firearm – like a convicted felon—all the buyer has to claim is that the gun was bought for personal use.

http://www.iwatchnews.org/2011/04/01...ay-atf-backers

Or perhaps, you dont see a problems with sales like these.

You do realize that a 22 cal rifle is very much unlike a 7.62mm AK-47? I think it is stupid to buy a 22 made to look like a serious rifle but the weapon itself is a plinker not a man-stopper. This reminds me of a local NPR radio report out out of Buffalo trumpeting a cash for guns program that got an, unlikely, "12 gauge street sweeper assault rifle" off the street. Reporters and would be regulators need to be a lot less casual and sweeping in their descriptions if the really don't want to feed paranoia. Our gun and anti-gun cultures are both kind of sick.

The regs seem pretty specific to me:

...require Federal Firearms Licensees to report multiple sales or other dispositions whenever the licensee sells or otherwise disposes of two or more rifles within any five consecutive business days with the following characteristics: (a) Semi automatic; (b) a caliber greater than .22; and (c) the ability to accept a detachable magazine.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-31761.pdf

SO if such reporting requirements already exist for multiple sale of handguns, why not weapons like AK-47s?

I'm not interested in taking away any citizens rights, but when someone can walk into a gun store and buy 40 AK-47s at a time with no reporting by the dealer, IMO, there is something wrong with the system.

And I'm still trying to understand how a reporting requirement is a part of a broader plan to take away Second Amendment rights.

Ah, its >.22 cal your previous post mislead me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff (Post 745487)

You do realize that a 22 cal rifle is very much unlike a 7.62mm AK-47?

Really? I never knew there was a difference....:rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 745511)

I'm not interested in taking away any citizens rights, but when someone can walk into a gun store and buy 40 AK-47s at a time with no reporting by the dealer....

Cite asshole.... when and where did that happen, unless of course you are talking about the DOJ scumfucks and the ATF that let it happen. They watched it happen at major gun dealers on the border and then tried to use them as examples as to why the system is broken... when those fucks set the whole thing up to, as the latest emails show, enact more restrictive gun laws.

Put up or shut the fuck up....:D

:corn: This beats a soap opera.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 745708)

You can rant and rave and call me names, but it wont change the fact that until these regulations were issued last month, there was no requirement for dealers to report multiple sales of these weapons. I cited an example described by an ATF agent and the lack of adequate laws to respond.

I'm open to discussing it with anyone on the other side of the gun issue who wants to discuss the issue rationally and respectfully. There is no point in any further discussion with you.

Genocides happen in places where there is gun control, and doesn't where there is not. Consult history. The case is very strong: if you want actually to be antigenocide, you be pro-gun, and rigorously, and all the time.

Essentially, to make genocide something practicable, you need a defenseless population to practice it upon. The most efficient way ever found to make a defenseless population is to delegitimize armed self defense and outlaw private weaponry.

The most effective physical defense against any genocide imaginable is the reverse of this: a selective-fire individual weapon over every mantle and two hundred rounds ready ammunition. Whereupon we'd all be Switzerland. Which is notably free of that genocide thing.

On a less grandiose level, you might consult the most recent edition of J. Lott, More Guns, Less Crime. A few crime-loving wishful thinkers allege that Lott's work was debunked. Don't believe a word of it; his scholarship is formidable. It turned Prof. Lott into a longtime gun owner himself. Ruger revolver, I think he said.

Do take care on one point though: asking me, knowing what I do, to treat the genocidal-ideators respectfully is asking for the moon. They not only cannot be respected, they must not be respected.

Yeah, all those AK-47s really helped in Libya, didn't they?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenGum (Post 746033)

Yeah, all those AK-47s really helped in Libya, didn't they?

I don't think the US sent them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced (Post 745714)

Yea, well when the ATF and DOJ sell guns illegally to patron who they know are going to take them across the border and kill other Mexican, and a few of our own citizens, then we have a problem. And not a God Damm thing you say about the issue matters one bit, as you shill and make excuses for the racist fuck Eric Holder and the corrupt ATF. Nice try, you loose. I have posted numerous links to original emails from the ATF that show they are corrupt. Hell, it would surprise me if Obamy knew all about as well.... You can ignore the fact all you want, they will not change.