The Cellar - Civil unrest around the world

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Well the situation in Egypt seems to be getting better and better by the day...

Quote:

Officials in Egypt continue to add to the grim body count from yesterday's military assault on civilian protesters that may have been the single bloodiest day of the entire Arab Spring. The Egyptian Health Ministry puts the "official" death toll from Wednesday's attacks on Muslim Brotherhood protesters at 525, but even that may not be a complete count of the carnage. The total has already been updated several times this morning, and The New York Times Cairo bureau chief David Kirkpatrick reports that another 250 dead bodies found in a Cairo mosque may not be included in that official figure. The total number of deaths recorded during the entire three weeks of the 2011 revolution toppled former President Hosni Mubarak in 2011 was 846.

Witnesses to yesterday's attacks described horrifying levels of violence as military and police forces gunned down mostly unarmed protesters. (One protestor told reporter Bel Trew of Foreign Policy, "They struck us down like animals... I can't tell you the amount of people who died in front of me.") Some were burned alive in their tents, while others were hit with tear gas canisters, bird shot, and the armored vehicles police used to clear out the sit-in camps that been growing for several weeks. Local mosques became makeshift hospitals and then morgues as bodies were lined up on the floor waiting to be identified, counted, and buried. At least four members of the media were killed trying to report from the scene.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/globa...ver-500/68350/

A British cameraman working for Sky News was shot and killed during those attacks.

It's fucked up. Can't root for either side. I want the military to impose some order and keep the government secular, but I don't think massacring the Islamists is going to help matters.

Agreed.

At least Egypt is a homogeneous country which means it probably won't descend into a sectarian civil war *knock on wood* like Iraq, Lebanon, and Syria.

I wonder how the White House will react to this. U.S. media is turning against the military so there may be even stronger calls for us to cut ties. However, the geopolitical advantage of allying with Egypt may still be too much

Quote:

Following the peace treaty with Israel, between 1979 and 2003, the U.S. has provided Egypt with about $19 billion in military aid, making Egypt the second largest non-NATO recipient of U.S. military aid after Israel. Also, Egypt received about $30 billion in economic aid within the same time frame. In 2009, the U.S. provided a military assistance of US$ 1.3 billion (inflation adjusted US$ 1.39 billion in 2013), and an economic assistance of US$ 250 million (inflation adjusted US$ 267.5 million in 2013).[3] In 1989 both Egypt and Israel became a Major non-NATO ally of the United States.

Military cooperation between the U.S. and Egypt is probably the
strongest aspect of their strategic partnership. General Anthony Zinni, the former Commandant of the U.S. Central Command (CENTCOM), once said, "Egypt is the most important country in my area of responsibility because of the access it gives me to the region." Egypt was also described during the Clinton Administration as the most prominent player in the Arab world and a key U.S. ally in the Middle East. U.S. military assistance to Egypt was considered part of the administration's strategy to maintaining continued availability of Persian Gulf energy resources and to secure the Suez Canal, which serves both as an important international oil route and as critical route for U.S. warships transiting between the Mediterranean and either the Indian Ocean or the Persian Gulf.

The Egyptian military provides indirect support for the foreign policy of Egypt in the region. Egypt is the strongest military power on the African continent, and according to Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies' annual Middle East Strategic Balance, the second largest in the Middle East, after Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Egypt_relations

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt (Post 873440)

It's fucked up. Can't root for either side. I want the military to impose some order and keep the government secular, but I don't think massacring the Islamists is going to help matters.

Textbook example of "ambivalent". Not the colloquial "don't care" definition; the actual "care, but don't know which way" definition.

From the beginning of the uprising in Egypt, I could not figure out how
the US could decide who to support.
I was surprised when Obama first came out early on saying Mubarik should resign.

Now, a couple of years later he is in the same situation,
and doesn't seem to have a good reason for supporting one side or the other.
His TV announcement a few minutes ago seemed pretty "vanilla".
"Stop the fighting" is about all he could convey.

For now, it seems to me the US position can only be to do nothing different.
By that I mean, the $1B in foreign aide will continue because to discontinue
it would probably have far reaching effects later when a new government is formed.

I suspect the US will sit back and wait to see how things work out,
rather than trying to enter the fray on one side or the other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamplighter (Post 873445)

I suspect the US will sit back and wait to see how things work out, rather than trying to enter the fray on one side or the other.

US has a problem. A blunt honest US position is religion has no place in any government. But that causes problems with other 'friendly' governments that really are not democracies because religion is fully embedded into their governments. Israel being a perfect example. Due to religion, then overt and intentional double standards (also called racism) is justified. That must not exist in any true democracy.

If you did not learn about General Sisi, then you did not yet understand other wild cards in Egypt. Many players are at that poker table. Each with completely different ideas about what is democracy, if democracy really works, and what kind of power they crave.

General Sisi was even educated in Pennsylvania. One of the first things he did was purge the Army of supporters of the previous supreme commander. We may now be seeing why he did that.

You are seriously misusing the term "racism".

It sounded like he meant religious bigotry; however, he could mean generalized racial bigotry as I've heard of darker complexioned inhabitants of the region being referred to as "sand ni**ers." Perhaps he has something more specific in mind.
:corn:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigV (Post 873510)

You are seriously misusing the term "racism".

Racism was always about judging people only on first impressions. Racism was never only about race.

A white skinned and black skinned man can be of similar race. And still racism says they are different. Racism (as so many use the term) foolishly says two white men with major race differences are same. Again, judging only based upon first impressions rather than first learning the facts (ie DNA analysis).

Racism is any judgement based upon first impressions. Israel is an example. For example learn how they treat Eritrean refugees and other non-Jews from torture camps on Israel's border.

Hate based upon religion is only another example of racism. Democracies have no business associating religion with government. A democracy cannot exist when government and religion are same. Democracy demands that the emotional concept called religion be separate from the pragmatic concept called government. Unfortunately, the US government does not make that distinction when discussing democracies elsewhere.

Racism is about race. The term you are seeking is "prejudice".

It will not serve you to expand the definition of racism for your own personal purposes.

"Bigotry" works well too.

Isn't bigotry acting on prejudice?