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-   -   Do You Own a Gun? (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=13960)

Urbane Guerrilla 05-26-2007 02:50 AM
Ringer's Paradox: it states, with considerable justice, that A freedom restricted is a freedom preserved.

In practice, laws of that kind are codified with the aim of preventing problems arising from exercising a freedom with absolutely no limitation whatsoever. The freedom to swing a fist ends where the other fellow's nose begins, and so forth. That is what Ringer's statement amounts to.

Spexxvet 05-26-2007 08:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla (Post 347185)
Ringer's Paradox: it states, with considerable justice, that A freedom restricted is a freedom preserved.

In practice, laws of that kind are codified with the aim of preventing problems arising from exercising a freedom with absolutely no limitation whatsoever. The freedom to swing a fist ends where the other fellow's nose begins, and so forth. That is what Ringer's statement amounts to.
So restricting guns (not that I endorse it) is an effort to preserve that freedom - cool!

Spexxvet 05-26-2007 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar (Post 347144)
From the moment of your birth until the moment you reach the age of majority (Which is recognized as 18 in America) you are not really a person under the law. You are merely the chattel of your parents. You don't have any decision making authority or powers over your life. Your parents hold these powers for you until you reach the age of majority.

Your parents do not have the right to physically endanger you, but they do have the right to decide which of your rights they will allow you to exercise until you are the age of majority and are responsible for your own life and can make those decisions for yourself.

You have the right to own a gun at birth. Your parents decide whether or not you will be allowed to exercise that right.
That's not what you inferred. Now you're saying that we have these rights, but aren't allowed to exercise them due to age. What else might be legitimate reasons for disallowing the exercising of rights? And what about the rights to life, liberty, and the pusuit of happiness (drinking alcohol)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar (Post 347144)
Let's use someone else as an example other than a child to clear up the point...
No, because your point was "from birth" not "from incarceration".

Radar 05-26-2007 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibram (Post 347147)
So we have basic rights inherent to being a person but only if the government says you're old enough?
No. You have rights regardless of whether or not there is a government, and you can only exercise which rights your parents allow until you live on your own...regardless of whether or not we have a government.

Ibby 05-26-2007 10:48 AM
So... you have rights unless your parents say you don't then. Lovely.

Radar 05-26-2007 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliantha (Post 347183)
I have a philosophical question which I've thought about often while reading arguments about how it's unconstitutional to have restrictions on gun ownership.

If that is true, then what about all the other laws that restrict people from doing what they want? Some road rules. Smoking laws. Curfews. monopoly laws for business. There are so many situations where this argument can apply. I don't see how it's valid.
Because we have the right to do whatever we want as long as our actions don't physically harm, endanger, or violate the property, person, or rights of non-consenting others.

Road rules are there for safety and to ensure that people do not endanger each other. Smoking laws are all wrong as are monopoly laws.

You have the right to shoot yourself up with Heroin. You do not have the right to drive a car on public roads while high on heroin, or fly a jet, work heavy machinery around other people, etc.

Merely owning guns does not harm or endanger others and those who claim otherwise are liars.

Radar 05-26-2007 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibram (Post 347250)
So... you have rights unless your parents say you don't then. Lovely.
Wrong. You have them, you just can't exercise them unless your parents allow you to.

Radar 05-26-2007 11:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spexxvet (Post 347222)
So restricting guns (not that I endorse it) is an effort to preserve that freedom - cool!
Violating the rights of those who are harming nobody does not preserve freedom. In fact it virtually guarantees the worst kind of tyranny. Only Nazis and their ilk support limiting, restricting, or outlawing gun ownership for regular people and not for government.

Trilby 05-26-2007 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar (Post 347257)
You have the right to shoot yourself up with Heroin.
How can you have this right when the very substance itself is illegal? Are you saying I have the right to illegal drugs?

Radar 05-26-2007 11:24 AM
Yes I am. I'm saying that all laws against drugs, prostitution, gambling, polygamy, or any other consensual act ore violations of our natural rights. You have the right to put anything you want into your own body (once you reach the age of majority). No government has any legitimate authority to prevent you from doing so.

Ibby 05-26-2007 11:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar (Post 347258)
Wrong. You have them, you just can't exercise them unless your parents allow you to.
Wait, what? How can you have them if you can't exercise them?

Trilby 05-26-2007 11:27 AM
Ok. I'm down with all that, Radar. Now. Let's say I choose to shoot some heroin, a thing my govt. looks down on, and I become sick--I go to the local ER expecting health care for my breathing problem related to shooting too much H. I've no money to pay for the care and no insurance. Who is responsible for caring for me while I am ill and paying the bill?

Same thing goes if I choose to use sex workers who may be sick with STD's--who pays for my care?

Ibby 05-26-2007 11:29 AM
You are, or the charity of anyone willing to help an addict.

Trilby 05-26-2007 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibram (Post 347270)
You are, or the charity of anyone willing to help an addict.
If i can't pay and no one will help me---I die. I guess this would help with the population problem but it seems rather----uncivilized. :yelsick:

Ibby 05-26-2007 11:35 AM
Well so what do you propose? I mean, those are the two options... either you save yourself or someone else saves you. Otherwise, you die. I mean, thats a rather simple formula, no?


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