Actually, Radar has never hidden his identity in the cellar. He has freely posted his name numerous times including when he was running for office and when he was arrested for distributing flyers in front of the post office.

I think his statements here are stupid and childish, but he is certainly not hidden.

Lay it out for me - Exactly what is it I've said that makes me "stupid"? I believe I am a rather intelligent, coherent and grounded in reality. Please enlighten me. Part of my life goal is to ever improve. Here is your chance...

I've always been completely honest (even brutally so) about everything I say. I have nothing to hide.

I also believe I'm rather intelligent, coherent, and grounded in reality. Clearly only one of us is correct, and it's not looking good for you.

You wanted to argue over the word "of" and you have the nerve to ask what you've said that makes you stupid? You have been presented with indisputable facts, yet you deny them or try to dismiss them as opinion.

is it ok to sound the logical fallacy alert now?

Person A says they are correct and has the opposite position of Person B. Only one of them is right.

classicman says he is intelligent, coherent, and grounded in reality and that I am not. I say the same thing about him. We can't both be correct.

I see no fallacy.

I was thinking the full-time siren would be better.

Seriously, cellarites, this thread was a good one for the first three or four hundred posts or so (what amazing stamina it had), but now it seems to have boiled down to name calling and veiled threats and challenges.

Ok, we didn't reach consensus. Can we let it go now please?

As far as I'm concerned this thread can die. I proved everything at the start of the thread and the rest of it is nothing but people making ridiculous and laughable attempts to circumvent the Constitution or to debate the meaning of words while ignoring the big picture and the whole message.

That's your problem Radar - and don't read this as an attack, just an observation. You refuse to acknowledge that two people can sit down look at the same information and come to different conclusions. We're not talking about mathematics. People have different life experiences, different specialized knowledge, and different priorities that they have to sift incoming information through. That makes it very possible for two intelligent, coherent, and grounded individuals to come to different conclusion based on identical input.

IF you will recognize that life isn't as black and white, right and wrong, smart or stupid as you have portrayed it you'll achieve a couple of things, not the least of which is you'll have a better chance of presenting your case in such a way that it might actually teach the other person a thing or two, thus swaying them to your way of thinking.

Point taken.

Radar, first of all, you didn't answer my question and secondly I believe it was you who initially resorted to insults and name calling. Thirdly, I would like to hear from the ArethaDoc exactly what it is that makes me "stupid"? My search for information and/or differing perspectives certainly isn't it, so I'll wait.

Lastly, I believe it was I who suggested we agree to disagree - no?

Silly classicman, wonder no more. It's because you're one of those scumbag Americans, that are ruining the socialist utopia this world could be.

Fuck you Bru - - - oh Ha Ha Ha.....

One of the more popular claims by illegal immigration proponents is that those who enter the U.S. by breaking the law are invariably "hard-working" and "law-abiding" once they get here.

That argument, however, has one major flaw. According to Justice Department statistics and the analysis of immigration experts, the "law-abiding" claim often isn't true.

As Investors Business Daily reported in March 2005:

"The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces."

Citing an Urban Institute study, director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies Steven Camorata noted in 2004: "Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That's a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population."

Former California Gov. Pete Wilson places the percentage of illegal aliens in U.S. prisons even higher. In 2001, he told Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly:

"We had problems related to the costs of educating children who were acknowledged to be in the country illegally, healthcare costs. One in five in our prison population were illegal immigrants who had been convicted of a felony after entering the country illegally."

The Federation for American Immigration Reform also turned to the Justice Department to get statistics on criminal aliens. They report:

"In March 2000, Congress made public Department of Justice statistics showing that, over the previous five years, the INS had released over 35,000 criminal aliens instead of deporting them. Over 11,000 of those released went on to commit serious crimes, over 1,800 of which were violent ones [including 98 homicides, 142 sexual assaults, and 44 kidnappings].

"In 2001, thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court, the INS was forced to release into our society over 3,000 criminal aliens [who collectively had been convicted of 125 homicides, 387 sex offenses, and 772 assault charges]."

Up to a third of the U.S. federal prison population is composed of non-citizens, according to Federal Bureau of Prisons statistics - but not all non-citizen prison inmates are illegal aliens.

As to the "hard-working" claim, CIS notes: "The proportion of immigrant-headed households using at least one major welfare program is 24.5 percent compared to 16.3 percent for native households."

Investor's Business Daily concurs: "Once [illegals] get here, they are 50 percent more likely to be on welfare than citizens."