my lit'l bundle o joy is the result of an ear infection treated with antibiotics. Apparently we weren't as careful this time as we were other times...what started as a pain in the ear migrated to a pain in the ass :)

I'm disinclined to believe that baby came out of your ass. :p

He's too young yet to be the other kind of pain in the ass. That only comes when they reach their teens.

welcome to the Cellar, Iggy. :)
The daughter and her hubby, of a friend of mine just did the adoption thing in Kazakhstan. Babies have to be 6 months old and an expensive, drawn out process. But they're happy.

She has to get several other women's husbands fixed too.

I don't understand why people are allowed to adopt outside the US. But that will just take me down a long road of isolationist thinking.

*sigh* Today's going to be a bad day. I can tell....

I'm not absolutely sure about one kid but I think two out of three alter servers last night were adopted from overseas.

I don't have a proble with people having the right to do so, but it's stupid. People really need to learn how to look at problems that are closer to home before they worry about other people's problems.

They already are. Mine's the only one who's not. I don't think I want him to get fixed. I couldn't even tell you why-- it's just some kind of mental block or something. I'd rather be the one rendered infertile.
Think positive. Nearly half the women <i>don't. </i> :p

I don't have a proble with people having the right to do so, but it's stupid. People really need to learn how to look at problems that are closer to home before they worry about other people's problems.

Have you considered that perhaps it's not as much about solving the other countries' problems as it is being able to adopt a baby within a year or so (unlike domestic adoptions where you can languish on waiting lists for a decade?) In addition, while foregin adoption is expensive, domestic adoption is more expensive, and has a good deal of heart-wrenching legal options for the birth parents after the fact.

Unless, of course, one is willing to take any of the thousands of pre-adolescent to adolescent children with behavioral and developmental problems. There are tons of those up for adoption in America. But I don't believe it is wrong for people to say, "I am incapable of taking care of a child like that," and instead adopt one who has no such (known) problems who just happens to be from another country.

In this case they aren't trying to solve other peoples problems, just their own....and it's closer to Belgium than here. :)

Reading back to the begining of this thread, I REALLY wish I had replied several pages ago. There were parts of several posts that I wanted to respond to and I just put this off way too long. I cannot begin to think of a fetus like anything as insignifigant as a potato. A potato (or any other things a fetus has been compared to) will NEVER grow, in a few months, into a baby human being. No matter how few weeks along you are, in time, it WILL grow into a person. The vast majority of the many, many abortions performed daily are NOT a result of a rape or a mother's life in danger. They are mostly just inconvient to the pregnant person at that time, and the pregnant person refuses to change their priorities, or think of the best thing for anyone but themselves.
When I was 19, in between relationships, managing a restuarant, working LOTS of hours, I had a brief fling. Working 70 hrs a week and not having sex for the past few months, I had become careless with my pills. By the time I realized I was pregnant, my "fling" was already in a serious relationship and planning marriage with a great lady. Not wanting to cause problems, and not feeling anything like a "parent", I went to my OB-GYN, he confirmed that I was indeed pregnant, and my reaction was "I am not going to have a baby!" He calmly asked if I would like for him to make a recommendation, I said yes, and within two weeks, I was no longer pregnant.
In the last twenty-five years since then, I cannot describe the feelings I have had at times about the abortion. The majority of people close to me do not even know. I wish so much that somebody back then (out of the four health care professionals that I ended up dealing with before the actual abortion) had said something - anything - such as "Has anyone discussed your other options with you?, "Do you feel that you need any counseling concerning this?", or even "Do you realize that in a few months this will be a baby!?"
Of course, I knew - or certainly should have known that there was a baby inside me, but I honestly never let myself think that specifically. I just blocked everything out except the fact that I didn't have a problem, or anything to decide or be concerned with because some people were making sure of that. Thinking back now, nineteen years old is young, you think you know it all then of course. My point is that I have a lot of concern for a lot of these girls and women who are getting all these abortions, and what they may go through later. That is one thing that I'm sure is over-looked WAY too much.
When I was 27, I had my son, at 30, I had my daughter, then I had my tubes tied. My son is a healthly 18 year old, we're very close. My daughter was diagnosed with neuroblastoma (a childhood cancer) when she was 16 months old. After two surgeries, chemo, radiation, and a two-month bone marrow transplant, she died at the age of 2 1/2 years old. (Her name is Sheena Marie Gootee - her name is posted on several child loss websites). Don't mis-understand - I never, ever thought, or think, that Sheena's death was God's way of punishing me for the abortion, but still, I do have on-going guilt and regret, even all these years later. I just don't think this aspect of abortion should be over looked. And I think it has gotten too common for women to use it as a form of birth control. I got physically sick once when I had seen a pregnant lady every day for six months, her belly growing (that would be THE BABY), then three days later I saw her not pregnant. A couple of months later, she was pregnant again. Turns out, she had dumped her boyfriend for another guy, and decided that she'd rather have the new guy's baby. So she went to Houston, Texas where she could get a late term abortion (you know those where they cut them apart, limb by limb and extract the pieces). I was mortified, and boyfriend #1 went into shock, a deep depression, and was drunk the last hundred times I saw him. I normally just stay out of abortion discussions, but I felt like writing this tonight.
If you know anyone that you're concerned about who's having problems or depression, and a past abortion could possibly be a factor, please don't over-look that possibility for their sake.
Thanks so much for letting me get this out!

BH - Thank you so much for sharing your story. One meaningful story means a lot more (to me at least) than a bunch of hypothetical situations.

I guess part of my response is flavored by being on a college campus. It's really tiresome to here from all of these yuppies about how bad it is in other countries and how they are saving a child.

I agree that adoption is a problem in America, but I guess it's partially because there are so many children that are the result of unwant or removal from homes of less that sterling health or mental state.

The beauracy doesn't help either.

y'know, what's really important is
 

What's really important is that it matters to that kid.

I'm reminded of the story about the fella standing on the beach after a big storm. The beach is covered with starfish, and with the sun rising and the tide falling, slow certain death awaits the starfish. So this fella is bending over, picking up a starfish, and chucking it back into the sea, again and again and again. There's another guy, he watches for a while, he sees that there's no way these starfish are going to be saved, and he walks up to the fella and asks:

"Why are you doing this? I doesn't matter what you do, thousands of these starfish are going to die."

The first guy pauses to listen, then returns to his task. He picks up another starfish and wings it back into the sea. He decides to answer the question and says:

"Because it mattered to that one."

Adopting a child from overseas, or a child that is, for some reason, a less desirable candidate for adoption, is in almost every circumstance, a Good Thing. Or adopting any child. There are exceptions, sometimes horrid, evil exceptions, (no link), but they're far, far rarer that the other end of the spectrum where a family is enlarged by one (or more),


That's just wrong thinking. Your opinion, sure, whatever. There's a big difference between talk on a college campus about "fixing the problems of those poor people" and action in the form of welcoming a child into one's family. Big difference. Talk's cheap (especially around here), but acting, doing this, I can't imagine the motivation for such a big lifelong, lifechanging event is about "fixing the problems of those poor people".

I see motivations like love for children, family dominating the decision making process. I am not an adoptee, or and adopter, so I can't say from first hand experience. But if I were to adopt, I mean, if we were to adopt a child, it would be because of our love for kids and each other and our family.

The truth of the statement that you can't save the world, or even a part closer to you than a part farther away is **not** sufficient reason to try to save a part you can.

By the way,
 

This, too, is a Good Thing.

Good one, jag.

Thanks for the story, BH.
IF...you had been counseled do you think you would have put the baby up for adoption?....or kept it?
Have you thought about how you would have supported yourself when you couldn't work those 70 hours a week due to the pregnancy?

Now that you've had a couple kids you're well aware of how they dominate your life and time. You must be aware how difficult it would be to raise a kid and support you both. Do you think you were ready for that challange at 19?

I think you're in a unique position to tell us these things. I also personally think you've beat yourself up too much over this...let it go and enjoy your son. :)

Wow Bruce - you've given me some things to think about. I really do not know what I would have done if I had been counseled, I guess I may even have still had the abortion. I firmly do not believe I was ready for the challenge of motherhood at 19. And maybe I have beat myself up too much over this. Reading that sentence did make me feel better! I know adoption isn't an easy decision either. I have known a couple of girls who have stressed for years after making that decision too.
I think maybe what surprised me most when I thought back to the time when I had the abortion was how easy it was, and I just wasn't sure it should be that easy.
(Maybe I feel guilty now because I didn't feel guilty then...??) When I start feeling guilt about it, I'll start thinking about those questions of yours. Thanks for the support....

Cool story, seriously, and I agree with it.

I'm not sure of your point here, but It's getting to the point where it is easier and safer to adopt from a foreign country than to adopt here. Many of the children here are castoff by by their DNA donors because they have habits that have given the child a huge case of baggage to look forward to when they're older. Also the hoops that adopters have to go through, and not all of them are unwarranted, can be arduous, additionally, if you're not a soon-to-be buclear family it can take you out of the running before the gunshot.

Wrong thinking? Possibly. But the talk I heard on campus in one instance was from a political science instructor as he and his wife went through the motions of adopting a child from China*. That's not hearsay or conjecture. I'm quite willing to bet that they will love and care for the child regardless of their motivations for going outside of the country to get her.

The problems that I see are:

1) the difficulty and capriciousness of the American adoption system
2) the history of the adoptee children or DNA donors (drugs, insanty, usually both)
3) the growing numbers of children with these problems
4) people's unwillingness to help these children

Each of those problems requires a different solution.

* Edit: That fact that it is easier to work with China, and to fly back and forth repeatedly and so on says a lot about problem number one.

too many people spend their lives on coulda/shoulda/woulda.
Something presents itself to you, make the best decision you can with the information you can get....then live with the results and watch for the next junction. Look ahead not back.
The fallacy of mulling over a decision you made years ago is you are taking it out of the time and place. The situation you were in and your mindset at the time of the choice has everything to do with it.
Let's see now....hmmm, I thought A was a better choice so I chose B. NO, you did what you thought was best at the time therefore it was the right choice for the time. :)

More good points Bruce! I think now that I have very possibly been thinking that losing Sheena in such a long, drawn out, painful, way (for her, me, her dad, and brother) that it was my punishment, although I kept insisting that I didn't feel that. I have decided to deal with this in a new way. After all, the kids who are HERE are the only ones who we can make a difference with now, in their lives. From what I've heard the last several months, there are two kids who I may be able to help make a difference with. I have a 17 yr old nephew who has never been acknowledged by my family, and from the problems he's had lately, being accepted by his biological dad's family may help him, according to some of his Mom's family. (The Mom refuses to discuss it). There's also a 20 yr old girl who is most likely my son's half-sister. She has desperately wanted to know who her father is, but her Mom would never let my ex-husband do the testing to find out (after he FINALLY offered, when we lost our daughter). My ex, my son, and I have agreed to do anything that this girl wants to happen - whether it is to do the testing, or just to accept her as family. My son would be her only (half) sibling. If neither of these kids want anything to do with us, we'll just have to understand, but from what I've heard, that's probably not the situation. I'm going to focus my energy on doing whatever is best for these two kids. Hopefully it will affect their adult lives in a positive way.
And this way, maybe I can avoid more of these coulda/shoulda/woulda thoughts concerning these two kids later on in my life. I will just have to approach things delicately, and put their wishes first, of course.
Again - thanks for the support!!! :)

When I was 16, I got pregnant. I had the child and gave him up for adoption to my (then) husband's aunt and uncle. I got pregnant again at 18 and went to Vegas for an abortion. (The first husband was very abusive and is now in prison for murder.)

After I was divorced from first husband, I became engaged and ended up getting pregnant again. His mother convinced us now was not the time for a baby, since we were in school and he still lived with her. I had another abortion and there were complications. It was not fun.

Years later, I had an option to go get my son back, and I did so. (Full story in the "Seriousness that changed you" thread in Philosophy.)

So I've been the abortion route, AND I've been the adoption route.

IMO, the adoption route is MUCH harder. I wondered every day how he was doing, what he looked like, what games did he enjoy, I mean, everything an absent parent thinks.

I do have some guilt over the two babies I killed (and I have no illusions that is exactly what I did) but I've learned what Bruce points out - Look Forward, not behind. My guilt about what I did then is now one of my life's lessons.

I tell my children that every action has a consequence, and every choice is your own to make.

I think that abortion SHOULD be a choice, open to all women.

IMO, that little thing *is* a baby. From Conception. Couch it in whatever terms you want, but the fact is, if not killed, a baby comes out. You don't say "I had a fetus today!" or "We're going to have a parasite!" or in the western movies, "She's with zygote!"

MY morals should have nothing to do with anyone else's morals. I don't have to like what another woman is doing, I can only state my opinion and tell my life experiences. But it's still that woman's choice to kill that baby, give it up for adoption, or keep it.

Not so sure about that. I've heard 'unwanted flesh and blood' from one girl and similar stuff from a couple of others that were having abortions.

Well, again that's my opinion.

Why is it that people change the terms of something to make it sound "more acceptable". I mean, it's ALOT harder to say "Yes, I killed my unborn child" than to say "Yes, I terminated a parasitic relationship." Both mean the same thing, but one sounds less "bad".

Actually, though both mean the same thing to you, they don't nec'ly mean the same thing to everyone. So, some people probably use a term you would consider "less 'bad'" because it defines what that individual actually feels she is doing, you know?

Not everyone thinks of an abortion as murdering a baby, so not everyone is going to call it that.

Yes, they do mean the same thing.

The procedure is exactly the same, regardless of how you couch it in semantics.
The outcome is the same, regardless of what you call it.

Forget procedure for a minute, some people don't consider a baby and a fetus to be the same thing. I don't. I had an ultrasound when I was pregnant, I saw a fetus - a potential baby. Everything developed ok from there and I ended up with a baby, instead of losing a fetus at some point, regardless of manner.

We can't forget the procedure when it's the procedure we're talking about.

No, that's your opinion. Of course, people with those opinions tend to think they are absolutely right, so it's not entirely your fault.

How many times have I stated that I'm giving my opinion? How many times have I posted that it should be a woman's choice?

And I'm very rarely absolutely right. And I don't appreciate the sarcasm.

You're saying the procedure is "killing a baby", and that people only use other terms to make it sound less bad. I'm saying no, some people really do see it differently. Some people don't think it's a baby, they think its a fetus, and their opinion isn't motivated by the need to make it sound less bad to anyone else.

You're right, some people may see it as merely a "bit of tissue".

But the procedure itself doesn't change. It doesn't matter what you call the life inside that no longer exists after the abortion is performed.

IMO, many (obviously not all) people DO try to couch it in terms to make themselves feel better.

You keep prefacing what appear to be statements of fact with "it's my opinion," but as soon as I pointed out something, referring to it as your opinion, and not a fact, you were quick to say that no, it was actually a fact, and not your opinon.

In case you forgot:

You: "Yes, I killed my unborn child" than to say "Yes, I terminated a parasitic relationship." Both mean the same thing.
Me: They don't mean the same thing to everyone.
You: Yes, they do mean the same thing.

This doesn't seem to be you saying that it is your opinion that they mean the same thing. It appears that you are implying that they do, factually, mean the same thing.

Where as you couch it in term to make yourself feel worse? It's more ok to have an abortion if you beat yourself up a lot afterwards? I don't get it.

Well it does if you don't consider it a life to start with....
I mean I've talked to friends about this, they saw it, very simply as an accident, not really that much different to an STD, it was a medical problem that had to be delt with, end of story. Not a life, just a bunch of cells. Doesn't mean they don't want to have kids later in life however.

i'm a guy so i should just learn my lesson and stay out of this, but i'm also a cellarite and that requires me to stick my nose in. er, something to that effect.

i think what OC is getting at is that what bothers her is when people use euphamisms to minimalize the importance of their decision.

i understand that because i feel the same way when listening to military members talk about the experiences they've had in "eliminating enemy combatants". that one busts my chaps. when we pull the trigger, we end lives. we kill people. we destroy families. if you can't do your job without having to depersonalize it with euphamisms, you shouldn't be a trigger puller.

from my perspective, it is ending a life. a woman has a legal right to do that, but euphamisms bug me.

Thanks, Lookout. That is mostly what I meant. And 6 is right. I did do that. Corrected.

There's a heck of a lot less debate about whether pumping someone full of lead is killing them than (at the bottom end) whether using something like RU486 is murder. You shoot a living, breathing person, they die, it's fairly straightforward. Is 16 cells a life? 100? 1000?

Similarly, some people see a pile of plywood and nails and call it a pile of plywood and nails, but OC calls it a house.

being an ass and i know it

it's going to degenerate from here anyway, you might as well throw in the petrol can while you're at it.

I like that!

Tsk tsk UT. Leave the bad analogies to me.

The pro abortion crowd doesn't think it's a house until the final coat of paint has dried and a poofy haired realtor has hammered a sold sign in the yard. Up till then, it's a uninhabitable collection of building materials - just burn it down.

Not only a bad analogy but a straw man to boot.

Or maybe, it's a house but not a home?

No, that's just how radical pro-lifers like to portray anyone who is in favor of legalized abortion. Yup, we're all evil and our goal in life is to kill every baby we can get our hands on. Hide the kids, everyone! Hurry! :eyebrow:

petrol added, match lit.................

?? WTF?

How can a pile of plywood and nails be compared to an unborn child?

A pile of plywood and nails can be shaped into any structure, while a human baby, barring severe abnormalities causing miscarriage, if left unkilled, will ALWAYS come out to be a human baby.

That was a dumb analogy, UT. And people need to stop "thinking" for me. "OC calls it this" and "OC thinks that". I don't do it to you. Please offer me the same respect.

While there's a lot that OC and I don't agree on, we on the same page here. Tissue or fetus, it's a baby. I think I posted elsewhere in the thread about the pro-abortion/pro-choice semantic game.

From Merriam-Webster:
Opinion:
a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter

I guess, in a way, my opinion is my perception of fact. That doesn't mean it's your perception or that we have to agree or that I'm always right.

So you're right. My opinion is that saying "I killed my unborn baby" IS the same thing as "I terminated a parasitic relationship." You don't have to hold to that opinion, and obviously you don't. But until you bring forward evidence to change my mind, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

That's not what I'm saying.

Some people have no problem with multiple abortions as a form of birth control. Some people don't hold the same beliefs I do. And that's ok. What I'm saying is that my beliefs say that killing an unborn baby is wrong (with limited exceptions) and that whatever YOU may call it, I call it a baby. So to me, it is indeed, "killing an unborn baby".

I believe life starts at conception. If left alone, those cells mature into a human baby.

And of course, all pro-lifers are radical, and overgeneralize like you just did.

I am staunchy pro-choice, because my morals should not be the standard for all women. It SHOULD be the individual woman's choice, guided by her morals and her beliefs. At the end of the day, she and her baby are the ones who have to live or die in the consequence of that choice.

the core question is
 

I posted this in another thread where I thought it was on topic but the argument roared on without me. The jumping off point was whether or not abortion is murder. It speaks to when personhood begins. I think it is appropriate here.

The core question
For a murder to happen, a person has to be killed. If the an abortion is defined as murder, and the victim as a person, then much, much more should change to be consistent with the stance that the rights of the fetus/embryo/zygote include more that just protection from murder.

I find the prospect that the abortion of a zygote, while certainly “alive”, should, could be considered “murder” as sensible as the prospect that a woman carrying this zygote should be counted as two people in any other circumstance. If she drinks, smokes, or does any other legal physical activities minors are prohibited from, is she breaking the law? If “it’s” a person, and murder-able, why--no--how can the discussion stop there? Which brings come to…

There question in the abortion debate:
"When does human personhood begin?"
A description of all viewpoints

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_when.htm

This is a calm, reasoned, informed discussion of the facts and opinions on all sides. I do not know of a “bright line” that separates one side from the other. I expect that search for such a line will be futile and acrimonious, because such a line does not exist. It is a range, not a point. At either end of the spectrum, the decision is clear, but in the immortal words of Kevin Kline in A Fish Called Wanda, “What was that part in the middle?”. The middle (range) is the part where lots of stuff happens, including personhood. That’s where the answer lies, along a continuum. After all, we’re human beings, taking nine months to develop. For me the emphasis here is on the being, as an active verb, as well as a noun. We don’t talk of dead people as “human was’es” or of a pregnant woman’s baby as a “human will-be’s”.

In the Roe v Wade decision, dividing the pregnancy into trimesters seems a wise, Solomonic decision, the best possible resolution in a minefield of difficult choices. To consider the independent viability of the fetus in the first trimester to be approximately zero, the court concluded that the decision was a medical judgment to be decided by the woman and her physician. In the third trimester where viability is much more likely permitted the court to consider a fetus more like a person and entitled to more recognition as such.

The search for a single marker to define personhood, and from that murder, and medical procedure and everything in between is doomed.

Saying “I’m pregnant” doesn’t work in carpool lanes either, (except in California, predictably).

http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20041122.html
__________________
Yours,

Uhhh, where did I say ALL pro-lifers are radical? I simply stated that mrnoodle's comments sounded like the words of a pro-lifer who is radical on his/her position. I don't believe all pro-lifers are radical, and would never say that. Please don't put words in my mouth. Thanks.

So which is it? Cells or a baby? You've called it both in the above sentence, and you can't have it both ways.

You're cells, but you're presumably also a fully grown human adult. I think the sticking point with me is that, while I'm radically pro-life (who ISN'T pro-life?), I would never do any of the things that the militant anti-abortionists do, but I'm lumped in with them. I'm not going to feign offense over being called "radical". I was answering UT's analogy with one that I thought was equally excessive and silly.

And for the record, I'm not hypocritical. I think pregnant women smoking or doing drugs when they know the effect on the baby constitutes child abuse, and maybe attempted murder. I think abortion is the killing of a living human (but I won't go so far as to call it murder - there are justifiable reasons for ending pregnancy).

People are so afraid that some religious nut is going to tell them how to live their lives that they fail to realize that there are real people on the other side of the argument. I don't give a rat's ass what you do with your body or your ovaries or what the hell ever. But if I really think that's a person living inside of you, wouldn't I be remiss if I didn't speak out in his/her defense when no one else would?

You'd do the same thing for a dog, but a human life somehow isn't that valuable. I don't get it.

Your comment was a gross overgeneralization, and I pointed it out with another overgeneralization. You seem to call a set system of beliefs that differ from your own "radical".

Unborn babies, infants, children, adults and old people all have cells. You're a group of cells, correct?

BigV - Your post is insightful and well reasoned. And will be ignored. What's going on here isn't really debate. It's more -- demolition derby.

No, you are choosing to read my post that way so that you can make your point and prove that everyone is picking on you and your beliefs. I clarified what I said, yet you are continuing to insist that I'm insulting you and others opposed to abortion. I'm not.

Well, the flames are licking at the walls of this doomed thread so I'm pretty much done here. i save my overly defensive name calling posts for tw.

Jag - i wasn't comparing shooting a soldier and aborting a child. i was talking about people who display the need to couch unfortunate, unpleasant actions in euphamistic terms. that is a pet peeve of mine.

"eliminating an enemy combatant" - call it what it is - Killing a person

"terminating a pregnancy" to me has the same ring to it.

mind you, i support the right to choose i just don't like all the justifications that seem to go along with it. admit what is really happening.


*********hey look - the ceiling seems to be about to cave in on this thread*********

That was apparent by the title. Everyone always leaves miffed from this argument.

They have to be more specific than "killing a person"

I feel that killing a person can't be compared with killing a person because....
You get my drift? :)

Would this not lead into a debate about what killing is? Many times have there been debates about the difference between killing and murder. I see both as negative while many of my friends would nix abortion because they believe it to be murder, and not just "killing".

Apparently to my friends, you can kill someone on a battlefield, with no thought or plan and it'd be alright, but if you plan to kill them before-hand, such as murderr, having the intention of killing them, that would be bad.

But in the end, when wars start and you are put on the battlefield, don't all soldiers have the intentions and plot to kill the "enemy"? Is there a difference at all, or are they just making excuses for their bloodlust not being sin?

I'm not against abortion because there are factors that most of the pro-life people can't put into their own context. I've grown up with friends being abused, molested, etc. etc. Their biggest fear was having a child, and if that wasn't enough, the pain of just having it taken away because she can't take care of it. It's her life, her body, her child. Not everyone has the blessing of being in a situation when they can take care of a child, should they still have to bear through child-birth for the sole-purpose of it being taken away?

From another post:

An Estonian anti-abortion ad (I think): Smoking chicks and hatching chicks