Sonofabitch its nearly 3am....How the hell did that happen....again? ...I have spent far too much time this week discussing Middle East politics and not nearly enough studying/sleeping/working/playing with my dog.... :typing: I mean it. He's gone glassy eyed.

[radar]You don't get it do you! The Palestinians didn't have a government, therefor they had no rights! What are you dense? They were just squatting there. They weren't actually using or improving the land. They were just squatting, they were too lazy to go down to the courthouse and file a claim. They should be happy they were evicted by a productive people. I don't even know why I try to reason with you Native American types, what would you know about this sort of thing?[/radar]

Just in case he doesn't get back to you on this. :)

I suspect it will be 100% bovine fecal matter, but I need some entertainment.

There is an ocean between us, in more ways than one. On that point though, the international community is not acceptiong of the concept of invading other nations and claiming spoils, in fact, it's a little bit frowned on these days. Pity you're a tad out of touch with the modern international arena.

Well, one thing is true, many are trying to. One the other hand continual road closures and blocked routes have caused many to loose jobs, particularly those that held jobs in Israel, Israel also has a long hisstory of bulldozing olive groves, and more recently, seperating them from the farmers with their shiny new wall. Their own land is split into thousands of tiny slivers of land, controlled by Israeli checkpoints, making it close to impossible for them to move around, makes a functioning economy a tad tough.

Notice how some people just do the hard work for you. Coz hey, all those people with different political views should DIE.

hmmmm....

God gave it to them.

Oh wait, EW doesn't accept the existence of any gods so ...

They had a natural right to the land.

Indeed. They also bulldozed Orange groves in Jaffa which were over a thousand years old. The genetics are lost to the world forever. Why? Ummm because militants might be hiding there.....Well thats alright then.....Israel doesnt feel any imperative to find any other way of bringing to "justice" those they consider beyond the pale....In most civilised countries some attempt is made to effect an arrest.

If that arrest is not possible without causing loss of life to the surrounding populace...well hell the arrest *isnt* made and another solution is found which doesnt put civilians at risk and which doesnt destroy ancient landmarks.

I am reminded of the Taliban and their destruction of the Buddhas of Bamiyan. The rationale behind the destruction is different but the scant regard for anything other than their own ideology and the destruction that causes is very similar.

The Israelis not only have a declared God-given natural right to the Land of Palestine .. they ... uh-h-h .... used the same tactics on the British, as the Palestinians use on the Israelis, to acquire ownership .. :rolleyes:

Hmmm .. the oft-repeated quote .. ''Those who fail to learn from history are bound to repeat it" .. could also be modified to ..
''Those who found their country on terrorism are doomed to live with terrorism .. ''

Of course, they DID phone through a warning before the bomb went off .. where have I seen that before? .. oh! ..... of course ... the IRA ... :rolleyes:

Ooops .. sorry .. I forgot to add the King David Hotel bombing, link, to the above post ..

http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac10.htm

Don't fault the Israelis for having more firepower and DO fault the Palestinian terrorists who put those people into danger in the first place by hiding among them.

Any suffering experienced by the Palestinians was due to their own actions.

Oh, you mean the soldiers who are DEFENDING their country against terrorists? Those soldiers?

Utter bullshit. There is no justification or provocation for strapping a bomb to yourself like a coward and blowing up women and children.

They're to think "Hey I guess I better not fuck with the Israelis or I'll get dragged from my bed at night."

That's utter bullshit. The child was not "targeted" and you know it. Unlike the Palestinians, Israel doesn't "target" children. A child may have been it, but wasn't "targeted".

The answer is simple. STOP KILLING JEWS!!!! If they did that, hey would live in peace. You say they're "conquered" but leave out the fact that it is they who initiate the violence, it is they who started this whole thing, and it is they who cry when justice is dished out.

Yes Monkey, that was a suicide too. A suicide in protest is every bit as much a suicide by blowing yourself up.

You are very mistaken on many issues, and if used often enough it IS a deterrent. And they should suffer more and more until they realize that their suffering won't stop until they stop attacking Jews.

Don't even try to pass that crock of shit off. The Palestinians aren't "fighting for freedom", they're murdering Jews without cause. They are no different than a gang who want to kill people in a neighborhood for protection money. Israel on the other hand is fighting for freedom from being attacked by their terrorist neighbors.

Yes, whichever one of you is evasive and a wife buyer should answer that asinine question. I might answer it if it were directed at me, but apparently the asshole who wrote it was directing it toward someone who is evasive, and buys a wife unlike me who is consistently straightforward, honest, direct, reasonable, and logical.

Don't put words on my mouth shit head. Back to the example of owning land that I don't happen to live on right now. If I have land in Montana that I never visit, but I currently live in California and you decide squat on my land and build a home on it. And you're there for 10 years before I finally decide to build on my land and I find you there, you hold no ownership in the land. You are guilty of trespass and I'd be perfect justified in kicking your scrawny ass off my land and bulldozing the house even with your belongings still inside. And if the Palestinian people wanted to have actual ownership of the land they could have purchased it and filed for deeds from the actual owners (Great Britain or before that Turkey, or before that Caesar in Rome, or before that the Pharaoh of Egypt) but they didn't.

You keep mentioning how Israel closes roads or bulldozes orchards or olive groves but conveniently leave out the fact that they were driven to do this through the terrorist acts of the Palestinians. If the Palestinians are upset at their treatment they shouldn't get angry at Israel, they should get angry at their fellow Palestinians who are carrying out these unprovoked terrorist attacks. Hopefully the Palestinians will get it through their thick skulls that fucking with Israel means you are dragged from your bed in the middle of the night, or killed, or lose your home, or lose your business, etc. Maybe when they hear about or see a Palestinian who is going to carry out an attack against Israel, they'll tell report them to avoid going through such pain and trouble.

Let's see we've got armed terrorists hiding among old trees. Do we go in and lose human life (more valuable than any tree on earth) or bulldoze the trees? Hmmmm I'm going for saving human life instead of trees.

All suffering on the part of the Palestinians is a direct result of their own actions. Until they stop attacking Israel entirely, things can and should get worse. If there were only one Palestinian left alive because all the others attacked Israel and that last one attacked Israel, he too should be eliminated.

Hey! I think we've found the guy that runs SPEWS!!!!
(any sysadmins will know what I'm talking about).

Bah, I can't be bothered. If you think punishing populations (which you've stated, quite clearly is the correct answer in your funny little world) I think I'll let my sig say it all.

Fight fire with fire and the world will burn

Eh, the UK had only a mandate to administer Palestine...they did not own it. And the State of Israel makes it pretty clear: The British Mandate authorities granted the Jewish and Arab communities the right to run their own internal affairs.

Actually, Radar, it was directed at you...though I can't prove you bought your wife, I can easily prove your evasiveness...care to play the game?

I knew who you were directing it at asshole. It was a racist remark (suggesting any woman from Vietnam who marries an American man is "purchased" woman is very racist) by an ignorant and poorly educated shithead trying to cast aspersions and make baseless and false claims about my wife and I.

And I'm anything but evasive. I've answered all direct questions asked of me with direct and straightforward answers when those who ask them are willing to offer the same courtesy.

I love it when you call me dirty names...it gets me sooooo hot and bothered!

Of course, this is only your opinion, much like most of your rantings...but why do you think my remark was racist?

Bullshit.

You're a liar.

Well. It strikes me that what we have here is an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. There is clearly no argument any of us can make which would change the opinions of the Cellar's pro Israel lobby ....and I think it equally unlikely that those of us who hold a different position will find ourselves swayed by the arguments heard here.

We have whiled away a pleasant week apportioning blame...But the lines are still drawn much as they were at the start. Of all the subjects that float across the boards this one in particular seems to spark a fairly heated response.

So. I propose we step away from the blame game for a moment. I will never see the Palestinians as the agressor and Radar ( for instance) will never see Israel as the agressor. Forget for a moment then, who started the fight;We will never reach parity on that issue....Instead, what do we see as the way forward? If neither side can risk letting down their guard how do they come to terms?

Without a solution another generation of young Israelis will grow up with violence exploding around them and another generation of young Palestinians will grow up with dreams of martyrdom. This surely cannot be tolerable for either side for much longer...Without a solution the situation could conceivably get even worse.

There are simply too many people dying in the Middle East, Israeli and Palestinian alike.

In what way can the world help end this death embrace in which Israel and Palestine are locked ?

Dana, this is probably the most volatile argument you will see on the Cellar. Gun rights are a close second.

All parties involved in the situation are a bunch of fuckups. The Palestinians will never achieve statehood through their current means. They should take a page out of MLK's or Gandhi's or even Malcolm X's book. And the Israelis are going to have to let Gaza and the West Bank go and offer some sort of restitution for the Palestians who lost their land. The other countries in the Middle East need to quit using the Palestinians as cheap pawns to further their objectives. And the Bush administration's policy shift is incredibly dangerous...quite frankly, I think it sets us up for another terrorist attack.

My $0.05...

*Nods*
I hear ya Sycamore. Its hard to see any way forward from this point. As to the possibility of another terrorist attack, I hope you are wrong, but I fear you might be right.

syc is right, this is one of a small basket of issues that never fails to start a rapidly degenerative flamewar.

It's not fucking racist, dude, I go to Vietnam and Cambodia at least once a year and I know perfectly well it's not in the slightest bit uncommon, either that or for a green-card.

Amazing how many middle aged, white, assholes I've met who have Vietnamese or Cambodian wives.

I remember the oddly disproportionate number of Philipino wives of american sailors as well.

Neither of your links shows a lie, or anything even remotely evasive.

Of course. Who would consider someone blowing up women and children without provocation or cause to be an act of aggression?

Yes, it is racist. Do some people sometimes get married for money or greencards? Yes, but it's rare when compared to the number of real marriages for love. False marriages are less than 1% of the marriages in Vietnam and that sort of thing happens in America too. Should I assume that any American women who marry black men from Africa are only doing it for a green card or claim that they "bought" their husbands? Of course not, that would be racist, just as your statement was.

Wow, there's nothing racist about that remark either right?

American white men marrying those women are trading up because those women are far better than American women when it comes to marriage. They act like real women who take care of their families. They work hard and don't act as though everything is owed to them. They appreciate what their husband does work as a partner instead of trying to get the upper hand on their husbands. They are feminine, beautiful, intelligent, worldly, classy, and cultured.

Are there beautiful women in America? Yes, from every culture. But generally speaking those raised in America are only interested in what a man can do for them. They want a slave, not a partner. They can't cook, and can hardly make reservations. Are there some American born women who want a partner, and who can cook, and manage a household with children? Yes, but they are far and few between and usually have bad attitudes.

My wife treats me like a king and I treat her like a queen. I am happy to do things for a woman who appreciates me and she feels the same way.

Your blatantly stupid remark about "many middle aged, white, assholes" is very telling and I don't believe for a second you've ever been to Cambodia or Vietnam once, let alone once a year.

Many American women are bitter about American men going elsewhere to find wives. They see the reluctance of American men to "commit" to American women and are frustrated by seeing them happily comitting to younger, prettier, kinder, women who don't ask things like "What have you done for me lately?" and who don't think they are doing their husband a favor by having sex with him. It bothers them to see these men happier than they'd ever be if they married American women.

I was getting plenty of action right here in America, but I'd never marry an American women. Well I can't say that. I suppose I could, but it would be so hard to find an American women worth marrying, it would be like finding a needle in a haystack the size of a volcano.

Well that certainly confirms all my thinking on the situation.

It's not racist, it's a startment of fact.
I know many assholes with vietnamese or cambodian wives. I didn't even propose a theory.

Nailbomb strapped to some desperate soul, flachette round from a 10-ton tank parked in your street, point me out the difference.

Where the fuck did you pull that number from? God, considering the amount of crap you pull out of your arse you should be able to park a small car in there by now.

Let me translate this:

I am an asshole who has expectations of women that date back to the 50s, since no sane woman would subject themselves to living with me, I'll grab one from a less socially liberal country where such behaviour is more accepted.

I wish I was joking but I've seen it time and time again, god forbid relationships be demanding. There seems to me a signifigant portion of one, if not two generations of men that simply can't handle the fact women want more these days. Not all by a long shot but a fair few.
Ask you wife to look up a business called G.A.T Securty in Ho Chi Minh, it's in Dien Bien Phu St, just over the bridge in Binh Thanh. They also have offices in Hanoi and Cambodia. Or ask when alex from aussie is coming back at the Apocalypse bar, or ask after me at the Saigon chapter of the Hash House Harriers. Idiot.

Hell if you want I'll put up a copy of a couple of my last visas.

Have you actually met any of the women I'm talking about?

Looking into some of their eyes was like staring into the eyes of a snake.

I've seen more compassion in the eyes of a Dept. of Motor Vehicles worker.

What I've said requires no translation but what women say always does. They speak in code.

Yes, they want more...more than they're entitled to, more than half, more than they're worth. Men want more too...more love, move compassion, more traditional values and roles, etc.

The women who don't give men what they want have nobody else to blame when they end up middle-aged and alone. Perhaps this is why so many of them turn into butch buzzcut bulldyke manhaters in their late years.

Marriages among Asian and South American end in divorce far less frequently than among Americans. That's becasue these women act like women. They treat their husbands like a king and take care of their families. And in return they are treated as a queen and given comforts and love. It's a 2-way street, and American women think all roads should lead to them or that they are doing a man a favor when they sleep with him.

I've gone out with more than my fair share of American women and most want a commitment and want promises of marriage, despite the fact that they offer nothing and demand everything. Fat chance.

As far as you going to Vietnam I still don't believe it. Say something in Vietnamese. What district do you usually stay in? Where do you stay? Which bridge are you talking about? Is it the Y shaped bridge that goes over the river? My father-in-law lives right by there so I know the area. Just because your company has an office there, doesn't mean you've gone there. Although if you are an Australian, the chances are better that you've been there.

There are many Australian companies there. I was offered a job teaching computer science at the RMIT campus in Saigon (HCM City) for $2000 USD/month, but I turned it down because I couldn't bring myself to live in a communist country.

I've gone out with more than my fair share of American women and most want a commitment and want promises of marriage, despite the fact that they offer nothing and demand everything. Fat chance.

Riiight, as opposed to what you demand, which is merely the complete subjugation of their emotional and mental existence to the control of another -- I'm sure these lasses are merely making the best possible deal for themselves that doesn't involve biting their own arm off to get out of this trap of a radar-esque "queen of paradise" existence.

Hi!

As a longtime lurker and rare poster..I feel impelled to state that you guys at the cellar have one of the weirdest most entertaining human zoos going..

:D

back to lurking

see you in a year or two!

I think what happened is that radar's atheism got in his way of finding an american wife. There are plenty of women who are into the Promisekeeper thing ... submit to your husband, etc.

Originally posted by RadarYou mean far better than American women at being your indentured servant.

Just wait till she's been over here a while, learns Engrish (assuming you permit her to wear shoes and further her education), learns to drive (assuming you allow her to leave the house unescorted and purchase a car for her), makes some friends, starts watching Oprah and Dr. Phil and starts figuring out what American women already know about you.

I was happy for you when you posted your wedding thread. Now it is clear that you have deluded yourself into thinking that because no one stateside would have you that your 9,000 mile journey was a journey to a land of "so-called" superior women.

Your new bride will eventually learn that there is a life outside of being your slave. I pity you when she does. As submissive as Asian women appear to the naive Westerner, they are Tigers at heart and can tear the flesh from your bones. You think you have control in this relationship but my guess is that she is smart enough to permit you to think that until she decides otherwise - which she will. Submissiveness in Asian women is not an individual trait its a cultural one. And when you take her out of the culture, she will learn that there will be nothing to stop her from self-actualizing - a destiny that you will be seen as an obstacle to. I would plan for that if I were you and step aside when it does.

Seems to me she already bitch-slapped you for not lying to the Immigration Authorities about meeting or not meeting in an Airport bar. Where do you compartmentalize anomolous behaviour such as that - behaviour that does not mesh with your stereotypical "submissive Asian woman" view?

And you call us racist.

Radar, just remember that when, excuse me, if things do not proceed quite the way you have planned with your marriage, we will be here, and we will listen to what you have to say at that time.

You failed to answer two questions directly asked of you. So, again, bullshit. You're a liar.

wow wolf, you really are a pro at dealing with nutters.

Now, I'm hoping for the best for Radar and his new bride. Love can teach amazing things. To survive, it usually requires you both to, at some point, become less selfish, even selfless.

But what do I know? I'm an uppity American woman.

Wrong. I don't demand any subjugation of any kind. I demand an equal partner, not someone who wants everything and gives nothing in return.

I wasn't looking for a wife, especially an American one. And my atheism doesn't get in the way of anything.

Ahhh, more bitter racist remarks. Who says being an equal partner who willingly and happily accepts the traditional role of a wife is a "servant"? She doesn't and I don't. Both of us are equals, but have different responsibilities.

One racist remark after another. I don't watch television or even have cable in the house, but she wouldn't change if Oprah knocked on my door and came to my house herself. And Dr. Phil is a loudmouthed idiot. I'd slap that chump around if he came to my house. Also American women don't know shit about American men, which is why they are always complaining about American men not being willing to commit. American men are willing to commit, just not to American women with bad attitudes.

Put down the crackpipe and step away slowly. I've had plenty of American women. So many I've had to turn down many of them. There were a few who wanted to marry me when I chose to go elsewhere. So save your lame "can't get a woman" bullshit for someone who gives a shit.

My new wife, will never be a slave and never have be locked in. She'll learn about how American women don't take care of their men, but expect their men to take care of them. They'll learn about how a man works 70 hours a week to buy nice things for American women and how those women won't cook, keep the house clean, and sleep with someone else because thier husband is "never home" because he's busting his ass to support her. My wife will be disgusted by such women. My wife knows she's very lucky to have me for a husband and will never leave me and I know I'm lucky to have such a great wife. With all the time we've been waiting to actually be together, we'll be so happy just to see each other, we'll never leave each other.

Don't presume to tell me about Asian women. I've dated so many of them and this is my second wife of the Asian persuasion. I know fully how Asian women are not submissive and this is why I get so ticked off when people make remarks suggesting that they are "slaves" or "submissive" because they are neither.

I don't think I have control of the relationship, I know I have control for my part of it. There is always a power struggle at the beginning of a relationship and I've already set the tone for how our relationship will be. I will not tolerate any game playing or bullshit and if she can't handle it, I'll send her packing. She already tried a couple of times to emotionally blackmail me with tears or threats of going to her mothers house and I told her, "go ahead" because I knew she wanted me to beg her to stay. We have laid the foundation and know that I have the final word. I've been around the block enough times to have seen all the games and I know how to shut them down.

This is pretty irrelevant since I'm not looking for a submissive woman or a slave. I like strong and independent women, but not those who crave superiority rather than equality. I'll never be an obstacle to her "self-actualizing". She can be all that she wants to be as long as we stick to roles we've agreed to take on. I wouldn't expect her to stay with me if I didn't work and take home money to contribute and help out with the housework if she has a job. I'm talking about a partnership, not a master/servant relationship. We both have certain roles, but when one of us falls, the other is there to pick up the fallen one or to take up the slack. That's tough to find in American women.

Bitchslapped me? She lied because in her country they are very scared of government people and try to say what they want to hear. She didn't hurt me as much as she hurt herself by lying. She asked me why I didn't call her to "get our stories straight" and I corrected her by saying I told the truth and our stories would automatically be straight if she'd have done the same. And we met at the airport terminal when she came to meet her aunt and uncle who I was travelling with. Not in a bar.

I'm not the one with the stereotypical submissive Asian woman view. I'm the one who already knows those views are racist and are usually mentioned by American women when they hear you're going to marry an Asian woman from another country.

The typical bitter and snotty responses from an American woman who finds out an American man is going to marry an Asian woman (particularly one from Vietnam) include:

Oh, so you want a submissive slave?

What's the matter, couldn't get an American woman?

Oh, you have a mail-order bride?

Did she promise she will "love you long time"?

etc.

I'm just going to be so happy waking up next to her and spending time with her after 4 years apart (and so will she) that the odds are in my favor. Of the many people I know who have been married twice, all but one has stayed with their second wife forever....so far.

Which two questions? I don't see them.

She does pretty good with you.

Warch, you don't come off as "uppity" to me. You may be the exception that proves the rule. I've already said that the observations I and millions of other men have made do not apply to ALL American women. There are some very good ones out there, but they are hard to find and are the exception rather than the rule.

If you the description I've given doesn't match you, you're not one of the people I'm talking about. But some in here know my words hit too close to home and they're upset.

If I wasn't convinced before, I surely am now.

Convinced of what? Your stupidity? I'm fairly convinced myself. glanced over that thread and didn't see any unanswered questions. But if you have such a burning desire for me to answer a question, you won't mind asking it again. If it was so easy for me to miss it on review, I may have missed it going through the first time.

Mr. Ireland did indeed answer the first question I linked to...I apologize for saying otherwise.

I stand by the second one, though. Radar, if you can't figure it out, you're out of luck. I can't help you.

Your initial stereotypical racist remark is what drew me into this thread in the first place so don't bitch when someone picks up the very club you were swinging around and swings it at you.

But, differences aside, I wish the best for you and your bride and really do hope things work out for you two especially if you decide to have children.

I'm waiting for you to start quoting Phyllis Schaffly next.

I embrace my tradition busting American womanhood. :) Isnt that the tradition?

[quote]Originally posted by jaguar

Quote:

wwoooa......I just entered bizarro world, I agree with Radar on something:

quote:To use those “considerations” as an excuse to invade another country is insane. America is not here to force other countries to be democracies, or to treat their people the way the president thinks they should be treated. America has NO AUTHORITY beyond our own borders.

The US sure as hell doesn't act like it has no authority beyond our own borders. What is "said" and what is actually "done" are two different things.

I've gone out with more than my fair share of American women and most want a commitment and want promises of marriage, despite the fact that they offer nothing and demand everything. Fat chance.

*read: I've tried to date American woman, and goddamnit, some of them just don't bow low enough or jump high enough for my tastes!*


Originally posted by Undertoad

Quote:

Riiight, as opposed to what you demand, which is merely the complete subjugation of their emotional and mental existence to the control of another -- I'm sure these lasses are merely making the best possible deal for themselves that doesn't involve biting their own arm off to get out of this trap of a radar-esque "queen of paradise" existence.

Nail.Hit.Head.

:)

Amazing how he knows exaclt how she will react. Truely amazing. You know, I hear these days some women have their own jobs too and........my god.....don't need anyone to support them they can do it all by themselves and thus aren't going to be interested in workaholics who won't lift a finger around the house beacuse they work so hard and who are never there to boot.

I figure, if it works for them then it works for them. If it doesn't they'll figure that out. There are as many ways to run a marriage as there are couples.

I do think there are more reasonable American women out there than he gives us credit for, but there's nothing wrong with his ideal as long as both parties understand and agree to the way things work. As wolf said, if Radar weren't an atheist there would be a whole wide swath of American women available to him who prefer the more traditional roles in marriage.

Radar, I didn't know you were married before. You said she was Asian? Asian or Asian-American?
Anyway, good luck with your pursuit of happiness. That's guaranteed, you know.;)

My Ex-Wife is Japanese. Her and her new husband really enjoy the house I bought in Las Vegas. But that's another story. I taught her English so well everyone thought she was third generation born in America.

so what went wrong

He taught her English so well that she understood his bullshit for what it was?....:P

When I read your response RADAR I really really wanted you to dispel the myth....I always think people jump to readily into the trap of defining all Asian women as culturally submissive and Vietnamese or Philipino (sp) women in particular as mail order brides chosen by Men whose own chauvinism has reached such a level that they are out of step with modern western values like gender equality.

I have a friend who is distance dating a Philipino woman he met through his work as techsupport for Servers serving Asia. ..Now I will admit I took the right royal piss out of him when he told me he was flying out to the philipines to meet up with his new lady. ....But I really was just teasing because my friend is a lovely guy who hasnt got a chauvinist bone in his body ( well....except for one but I think thats all guys..:D ..) He's already been married once and has a delightful daughter His Phillipino girlfriend is also a divorcee with children. I have seen the photos of her and him together on holiday and they make a good couple. She doesnt look like the submissive type and knowing my friend as I do I dont think he'd have been drawn to her if she was.....

So...I was really hoping to see this stereotype debunked ....but then every damn paragraph of RADAR's post just read like my idea of the stereotypically chauvinist male drawn to Asian women because they "know how to look after their men properly".....Damn

Really Radar, I do wish you the best. However, I agree with DanaC that you shouldn't make cultural assumptions. If you do try to treat her with the submissive asian woman stereotype, well, I have three words for you. Loreena Bobbit & Ginsu.

Anyway, that being said, can someone explain how a thread I started on the draft ended up discussing Radar's nuptials?

DanaC, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of exceptions to the rule, but it's a distinct trend I have noticed.

Richlevy is right y'know....we really have allowed this thread to wander across the road and get run over by an oncoming truck *grins*.
So....to take it back to the draft for a moment.

In the light of recent events in Faluja and in light of the public outrage over incidents involving Iraqi prisoners ......do we think it is likely that a draft will be attempted? and How would the American public respond?

My opinion is that if we decide we cannot walk away from Iraq, which even Kerry agrees on, and the handover does not go smoothly, we may decide to commit a major force of 250K+ to quell unrest, bringing back more armor.

If that happens, and we do not get more international involvement, which will probably be withheld as long as Bush is president, then in my opinion we move up to a %50 or more chance of reinstating a draft.

The only way we could cover any large comittment in Iraq with our own troops without a general draft would be to have an 'internal draft', extending terms of service, issuing callbacks to veterans, etc.

BTW, here is an interesting New York Times article on the current makeup of the military on a politicians web site.

The Draft = Slavery. It says the government has a greater claim on our lives than we do for ourselves. It says the government OWNS us. A purely volunteer military makes sure the government doesn't go rushing into wars that aren't supported by thier bosses (The American People) and makes sure they don't START wars.

The only way a draft would come about is if:

A) there was again a unified social attitude of the American public - the type that existed in the 30s-50s and in decreasing levels from 9/12/2001 - 2/1/2004*

B) there was a national crisis (or *perceived* crisis) that encouraged this unified attitude to become some sort of national service, which would solve or appear to solve the crisis.

If, for example, a nuclear device were set off in downtown Philadelphia, the response of the public would be 9/12/2001 *magnified*. It would demand a level of seriousness that most people hadn't experienced before. And a unified response.

*In my opinion, the Janet Jackson "wardrobe malfunction" benchmarks the end of the post 9/11 spirit and the complete return to paying rabid attention to completely silly things.

You forget that we are in a 'war on terror'. The new draft would come in under the 9/11 banner that the administration has been using as a blank check for the past 2 years.

neo-Conservatives would want it because they would see it as a tool for an even stronger American hegemony.

Liberals might want it because they would have some faint hope of an egalitarian military where rich kids would have to take the same risks as poor and middle class kids.

I would be interesting how the military would deal with gays and women since attitudes have changed since Vietnam and there are more women in uniform and on the front lines. Also, they will need to address gay military service since the idea of giving an entire group a ticket out might not sit well with gay detractors. Hence they would try for a national service model to address these groups, not to mention conscientious objecters.



Of course, if national service does come about, there would probably be some homeland civilian component, and the rich kids would end up delivering Meals on Wheels in their Porsches while the rest are pounding sand.

It doesn't matter that we are in a war on terror, because most people don't perceive it to be a war any longer, which is why more people are putting "irony quotes" around the words "war on terror".

Without that perception, the idea of a draft will be politically unacceptable and unviable, believe me.

It will if there is another major attack, and whether there will be is an interesting question. My feeling is that the capabilites Al Queda would need to pull something of S11 scale off simply don't exist anymore, the but there will be more and more small attacks, maybe in the US, maybe not.

19 guys armed with boxcutters, willing to die for their cause, and just smart enough to be students for a few months and to understand a few instructions from the boss.

I don't know, that I admit, but I bet those raw materials are available in any extremist mosque in Saudi Arabia.

Fake passports, flight training, intelligence gathering.

The biggest problem is keeping your profile low enough. When you start dealing with 5+ people keeping the chatter to nill without leaving any traces gets hard.