Except that (so far) we LIKE LUVBUGZ. ;)

I'm just waiting for her to call Quzah a "mook," then all bets are off...

I don't think so. All the cats I've been around, especially the barn cats, the females were pretty formidable. Considering were up to out butts in cats, in this country at least, it's hard to believe they're that opposed to it.
OK. my bad. What I tried too say was it takes away the basis for the competing hypothesis that they do it for pleasure and reproduction is accidental. The other case against that is so many animals time their births to seasons and other outside influences.

     What about primates and Dophins that have sex lives that go well beyond reproduction? They're animals too. Juju referenced this but I didn't see a response.

http://whale.wheelock.edu/archives/ask01/0097.html

You are correct here, Juju. You don't have to be "taught" these things, but you still "learn" them. There are several ways of "learning" things. Learning is an adaptive change in behavior resulting from experience (Harper Collins Biology Dictionary). As I tried to explain earlier, "learned" behavior is different from "innate" behavior. The need for animals to reproduce is an innate behavior (instinctual), they don't need to learn this, they just know they need to reproduce (ie. hard-wired in their brains from birhth). This is true for humans as well, but some where along the line humans have come to associate sex with pleasure as well as reproduction. I'm not a human behaviorist, but I have a feeling that this phenomenon is a result of "learning" through experience that the sex act produces physical pleasure to "us". So, although we weren't "taught" that sex feels good we still have "learned" this through our sexual experiences.

That link claims dolphins and chimps have incorporated sex into their social behavior. Neither for fun or (intentional) reproduction, as I understand it.

I never bitched you out for your potty mouth, only for the diarrhea that seems to endlessly flow out everytime you open your mouth. Watch who you call a hypocrite, fuck-face. At least I have the intelligence to know what the word means. Go suck on a carrot or something, better yet, just fuck off and die:finger: And while you're at it have a nice day, asshole.:p

      Right Bruce, as a social thing it's not hardwired, and they are animals. There is some suggestion of pleasure, but it's clearly not the integral point. I'm just stirring the pot. Adding food for thought.

Black = Juju, Purple = LUVBUGZ

Dave is a jerk. I really wouldn't recommend taking on his philosophies. But that's your call, of course.

Dave may very well be a jerk, I don't know him that well, but I kinda like his "I meant what I said" philosophy.

In any case, I wasn't trying to deviously alter what you said in an attempt to undermine you. I just thought that's what you meant by the word.

I realize that Juju. I'm sorry for the tone of my reply. I think I was having Quzah flashbacks at the time.

In truth, I don't think either of us can prove what goes on in an animals' mind. So it's all pretty much speculation.

You are absolutely correct here. It is speculation to some extent, although, science has given us a pretty good idea/theory of what goes on in some species minds which is then extrapolated out to what other species "think/feel".

Because you don't agree with me, my hypothesis is irrelevant? Can't I have more credit than that?

Once again, I'm sorry, Juju. Your hypothesis is just as relevent as mine is.

So, okay, first of all, what is the difference between a goal and a purpose?

I look at a "goal" as something one strives to attain, meaning that once that goal is reached there is an ending. You are done because you have reached your goal. I look at a "purpose" as a reason to do something, it continues on indefinately. I was trying to say that Nature's "purpose" is "species survival", which is continuous (ie.from generation to generation), not a "goal" which would have an ending point.

Syc, what's a "mook"? I'd like to know what it means before I use it on Quzah;)

Jesus christ. Someone has selective memory. You've got to be the stupidest mother fucker I've ever had the displeasure of running across, and believe me, I've talked to quite a number of them.

How about you pull your head out of your ass and read back a few posts if your memory is so short, because have neither the time, nor the energy to explain things in small words so you can understand it.

As for hypocrisy, perhaps you need to look up the meaning. I mean seriously, act holier-than-thou because I "swear", when you're tossing them out left and right. Get a god damn clue.

Quzah.

quzah,

Funny isn't it, two people who have totally different views can feel the exact same towards each other. My sentiments exactly (ref quzah last post). Too bad you didn't follow through on this earlier promise (emphasis is mine),"What's wrong with paranoia? You're one of those people aren't you? I know about you guys! That's it, I'm not posting any more. I'm going to go change my legal name now and move. Quzah."

I've read this thread so many times it's ridiculous. Talking to you is like talking to a piece of shit. You just sit there and make everyone around you nauseous from your stench.

Call me a hypocrite, if you must, as long as you realize that I'm right and you're wrong.

Don't forget to go eat shit and die now you fucking asshole.

Ah, the reminiscences...
 

This thread makes me feel warm inside. Remembers me early USENET flamewars.

:D

Quzah, you are a very poor communicator. Your insults pushed her into a defensive mode and turned the situation, not into a search for the truth, but a contest as to who's right and who's wrong.

I personally hope that I am right, but I want the truth more than I want to be right. Unfortunately, it's difficult to ease people into this mindset when you're attacking them.

I only say this because I mostly agree with everything you said. But you're not exactly helping the cause of dissemination of truth.

Both of them need to quit flinging shit at each other. It may be too late to save Quzah, but LUVBUGZ seems to have potential.

You all have the misgiving that I actually care what you think about me. Manners are like appareance. They're both for people who worry what others think of them. You've got me confused with someone else.

LUVBUGZ's one major failing is the inability to concede a point. That's the only problem I have with them. They're like those religious zelots who "know" there is only one "right way", and if you believe anything even the slightest bit different, you're wrong, and they cannot grasp, or will not even entertain the idea that you may have a valid point.

Case and point, they gloss over any valid point the opposition may have, and you have to ask them repetedly to acknowledge said point. If in doubt, read back a bit and you'll find that Juju also had to ask repetedly about points they had.

That is my problem with them. They cannot even entertain the notion that some one else may have a valid point. This is my one real gripe.

Since they've got their crackerjack diploma in Biology, that makes their point of view 100% valid in all understandings of Biology, so don't you dare fucking question them becaue you're wrong!

[edit]
Another case and point: Them going off on me for swearing, when they do it themselves. So it's bad if I do it, but it's ok if they do. And they tell me to look up the word hyporcite. Give me a break.

So it's fine if you shoot people once in a while, but if you shoot people all the time it's bad.

Oh, no, I shouldn't have used that. They probably don't know what an analogy is either. And I'm the one that's supposed to retake English 101.
[/edit]

Quzah.

You know, you're pretty smart... and I respect you for that. But what you've described in the second paragraph is <i>your fault</i>. If you hadn't attacked her, she wouldn't wouldn't feel like you're threatening her worth as a person. She wouldn't have closed her mind to your point of view (a defense mechanism) and would then have been more receptive to what you had to say.

My argument here has nothing to do with your self-worth. I'm just assuming that you cared whether or not she at least considered your viewpoint. If you don't, why bother posting? But if you do, perhaps you could consider my point?

Well you're close anyway. Perhaps if you read the the start of the thread, you'll notice that I did not attack her first. Here, let me quote it for you so you don't have to find it:

And there you have it. I did not attack her directly. My first post in this entire thread was a general response, quoting UT. But then, it's all how you look at it I suppose. I mean, how do you take the sentence:

" It makes the rest of 'us' who actually try to do something about animal abuses look like blubbering idiots and then we are left to deal w/ the Quzah's of the world."

Attack? No? Yes? You decide. But that was the first. Tootles.

Quzah.

That wasn't an insult. She was using you as an example of someone who doesn't care about animal rights. She misjudged you, but didn't insult you.

Also, her misjudging you is also your fault, because your first post was all, "Who the fuck cares, blah blah blah, harshness harshness harshness". You gave no indication that you were vegan, and you made it seem like you were a harsh anti-animal rights person.

She's new, and sized you up based on your words. Then instead of just correcting her, you corrected her and were a jerk about it. Then she very nicely apologized.

Now, I don't have time for a play-by-play 'cause I have to go eat. But I think it's pretty obvious that you drove her to her current mindset.

Really, logic is important, and yours is spot-on. But you've got to use a little pschology sometimes.

So misjudging isn't insulting? How so?

It's all in the implication and perception there of. You took no offense, because it wasn't about you. The implication here is that I'm an asshole. Thus: "All the Quzahs of the world...". It doesn't matter if it's true or not.

It's implied. You're saying that there cannot be damages just from an implication. This is false. You can imply that a business is shady and doctors the books. People believe it, and as a result, the business suffers. They sue your ass off for the damages you've caused them.

Yes, you can insult someone by implying something. Whether or not you meant it doesn't matter. You cannot simply imply a negative connotation about some one, and expect them to not react negatively to it.

Quzah.

Then the both of you have no understanding of sarcasm either. There's nothing I can do about that. I don't give lessons, just posts.

Quzah.

I think you're missing my point.

Oh I know what the point is. I'm to be nice and sweet like a new born chicken. All fuzzy and cute.

I just don't have it in me. ;)

Quzah.

Ok, I'll give this another shot.

Speaking from your point of view as a communicator, it doesn't matter whether or not she insulted you. Your goal is to get her to understand you. What you're doing is undermining that goal. That can be evidenced by the fact that she now hates you and probably immediately rejects every point you say. Congratulations.

It has nothing to do with morality. Being rude, even if someone else is rude to you first, is an ineffective communication technique.

Morality? How'd you make the connection between fuzzy chickens and morality? :D Now that is an interesting thought process!

Point taken.

But personally, I really don't care. It's not my goal in life to sway another's opinion. And it definatly isn't to alter their perception of me. I tell you my opinion, you tell me yours. It gives me pause for thought. Hopefully I do the same. If not, not loss.

But I have no desire to change anyone's opinion.

Like being vegan. I am. You're not. I don't care. If you are, we have one more thing in common. If you aren't. We don't. It doesn't effect me either way. It's not my goal or duity to try and convince you that you should be one.

I'm not an evangelist. I don't recruit.


Quzah.

[edit]Quote fix, added final two paragraphs.[/edit]
[edit]And now I'm going out of town for the weekend. Have fun.[/edit]

If you didn't care, then why did you argue with her for over a week?

Hope you had fun over the weekend. :)

I appeciate that. That's why I went to the link and read it over a couple times, seeking answers. I'm always open to suggestion...ask any woman.:D

I try to make it a habit of flinging shit only after it has been flung my way:)

[quote]Originally posted by quzah

You all have the misgiving that I actually care what you think about me. Manners are like appareance. They're both for people who worry what others think of them. You've got me confused with someone else.

I think everyone realizes that you don't care what people think of you and your beliefs, which begs the question, why you do you bother to visit the Cellar, read posts, and make posts yourself?

LUVBUGZ's one major failing is the inability to concede a point. That's the only problem I have with them. They're like those religious zelots who "know" there is only one "right way", and if you believe anything even the slightest bit different, you're wrong, and they cannot grasp, or will not even entertain the idea that you may have a valid point.

You are wrong here. I will admit when I'm wrong when you prove that I am. I am willing to entertain the ideas of others, but am also willing to disagree with them and attempt to justify my reasons for disagreeing. On several occasions I have in fact agreed with you on some points, but you apparently didn't notice, or didn't care.

Case and point, they gloss over any valid point the opposition may have, and you have to ask them repetedly to acknowledge said point. If in doubt, read back a bit and you'll find that Juju also had to ask repetedly about points they had.

I attempt to respond to every question or point that is brought up and I don't think I have glossed over anything, although I still need to respond to a couple of questions Juju asked of me. I'm not glossing over them or ignoring them, but I was embroiled in our debate and left them to be answered at a later time. Sorry to you Juju for not responding in a timely manner, but I will respond.

That is my problem with them. They cannot even entertain the notion that some one else may have a valid point. This is my one real gripe.

I would entertain this notion if I felt you had a valid point. Aside from the times I have agreed with you, I still don't believe you have a valid point, well maybe some valid points, but overall I do not agree with most of what you have said.

Since they've got their crackerjack diploma in Biology, that makes their point of view 100% valid in all understandings of Biology, so don't you dare fucking question them becaue you're wrong!

You know this is an uncalled for comment. My degree is important to me and it took me a long time to get it. I'm not saying my point of view is 100% valid regarding all biological issues, but I feel having it gives me a more informed view than say the general public. If something can be explained or validated through a biologically based answer, I will provide that information to the best of my ability. I am by far an expert in Biology, in fact, a majority of my commentary in this discussion has come from my experience with animal rescue work I have done, not just from Biology. You may correct my biological info. as I said I'm no expert, but you cannot disprove my life experiences. I feel the way I do about animal right's and animal welfare because of my experiences. In fact, most biologists I have met or worked with have very different opinions on these subjects. Most disagree with me, fortunately those discussions didn't sink to level of this one, which I agree is partially my fault.

Another case and point: Them going off on me for swearing, when they do it themselves. So it's bad if I do it, but it's ok if they do. And they tell me to look up the word hyporcite. Give me a break.

As I've said before, I've read this thread several times and still don't see where I "went off" on you for cussing, only for your spewing of rediculous, irrational, and invalid comments. As is obvious, I cuss too, a lot when I'm pissed, while offensive to some I still do it, so cuss away, I don't give a rat's ass.

My mind is not yet closed to Quzah's point of view, but I still believe that my point of view is more rational than his/hers.

Quzah, I don't know why you are so concerened about my "misjudging" and "insulting" you, remember saying this..."You all have the misgiving that I actually care what you think about me." And you have said yourself that you're an asshole, I was just agreeing with you.

I live and breathe sarcasm, Quzah. I'm quite familiar with it, but by not knowing someone on personal level before using sarcasm I've gotten myself in some deep shit with it. It often comes across as rude, disrespectful, and cruel to other people if they don't know you and don't realize you are being sarcastic. I usually preface my dealings with people I don't know very well by straight out telling them I have a sarcastic and dry sense of humor.

Well, Juju, I think I might "hate" Quzah a little, I definitely think he/she is a big asshole who is impossible to deal with on a rational level, but oddly enough I think we have similar views on some things, for example, in the Fallen Bridge "Tragedy" over in the IotD thread. I can't say that I will automatically reject every point he/she makes, but I definitely cringe when I see the name Quzah. I do think we got off on the wrong foot, but I'm not apologizing for anything I've said because I feel my views on spaying and neutering your pets is reasonable, humane, and valid.

Yea, Quzah, I apologized when I realized I had misjudged you (in the beginning). But, like I just told Juju, I don't apologize for anything else I've said (ref. last post to Juju). And, as it turns out you are an asshole, you said so yourself. So what, I've readily admitted to being one myself, but that in and of itself does not invalidate my views. There are many kind, caring, non-asshole people who feel the same way I do about spaying and neutering pets.

Quote by Juju:
Those are all things you consider bad. Are you sure the animal would agree?

Juju...I don't know what I know and what I don't know anymore. I guess I figured "if" you could tell your dog that he would be safer (not running around after females in heat getting hit by cars, getting lost in the process, getting into fights with other males, getting injured by the guy whos female he is trying to screw, etc.) by being neutered that this my not sound so bad to some of them. Since we unfortunately don't know what our pets are "thinking" I can't say that I'm 100% "sure" that they would agree. I can only assume that they would prefer to be home, safe, fed, and loved as opposed to running around after females, getting lost, possibly being injured, with no food or shelter. Maybe that's stupid, idiotic, ridiculous, whatever, but that's my opinion.

Quote by Juju:
How so? (I know you're probably joking, but I wasn't sure. :) )

If some human males where prohibited from breeding whether through castration or vasectomy, the world would be a better place. Rapists and murderers come to mind, along with those low lifes that run around getting several women pregnant and then claim that none of the eight kids in question are his so he doesn't have anything to do with them and doesn't pay to take care of them. This also applies to some women as well, except in this case they would get "spayed" or at least have their tubes tied. Crack hoes come to mind who keep giving birth to addicted babies that have many medical problems and are usually effected for the rest of their lives if they don't die first. I could go on and on, but I think I have sufficiently answered your questions. If there are any others I haven't addressed, I'm sorry. If you bring them to my attention I will answer them for you. Thank you for your time and patience.

And your entitled to it. You seem to be taken aback by the resistance to what you thought was a given. Most people will agree in principle, with the merits of spay/neuter, even if they don't practice it. There will always be people, especially on the anonymous internet, that will argue anything, sometimes convincingly.
But the fact remains, that pets are our responsibility to care for. They're not too smart or they wouldn't look up to humans. :haha:
The spay/neuter program is not some human whim, but a sound, logical and proven way to improve the health and welfare of our pets. Idealogical arguments be damned, it works.:)

Yea, Bruce I'm taken aback, but not by the resistance to what I "think" is a given. To me it *is* a given, period. I thought I would attempt to show this to others, but obviously I have failed. I've learned one thing though through all this, that if someone is too fucking stupid to realize the benefits of spaying and neutering their pets, then I can talk until I'm blue in the face and it won't change one damn thing. So from now on unless someone shows that they have the intelligence level to hold a rational conversation I'm not going to waste my time and energy dealing with them. Unfortunate as that sounds, my sanity is more important to me than trying to change the views of irrational people.

Maybe the reason there aren't more people coming on here and saying BUGZ is right, is because we all believe it IS a given. Let's see... would my Dusty (cat) prefer to be living in the wild (or more likely, on the street) having promiscuous sex with tomcats and squeezing out litter after starving litter of unwanted kitties? Or would she prefer to be living in my climate-controlled house, eating to her hearts content and cuddling with me? I think the answer is clear, and she tells me this everyday (in not so many words).

Having her live with me and not be spayed is not really an option. Then she would be rolling around and caterwauling, wondering why she can't get laid. (There is only room for ONE female doing that in my household.)

I respect Quzah's philosophy of non-interference to a certain extent (especially when it comes to "food" animals). The problem is we've already "altered" dogs and cats by breeding them to live with us and be our companions. Whether this was right or wrong in the first place, the reality is they prefer to live as our companions. And the best way to make them healthy and happy is to have them spayed and neutered. Plain and simple.

Thank You B, I knew I couldn't possibly be the only one around here who felt this way. It seems to me that most would rather sit around watching the "fireworks" and complain about my poor communication skills rather than risk their integrity within the Cellar and voice their support regarding this issue.:)

BUGZ if you look at the thread you'll see that B was not the only one to support your position on spay/neuter pets.;)

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You're right Bruce, bmgb wasn't the only one to support Bugz's position. However, if you are talking about yourself then you need to double check with someone who knows about these things before you opinion can be considered valid. :3eye:

True, but once I'm validated, I park for free.:haha:

I realize that Bruce, that's why I said "It seems to me that most would..."

Whit, that's quite enough of these comments...."However, if you are talking about yourself [Bruce] then you need to double check with someone who knows about these things before you opinion can be considered valid." AFAIK, Bruce was fully aware that I was joking in the Pagen thread and since the comment was made to him I don't see the need for you to continue dwelling on it. Your point was made and taken, Thank you for contributing:rolleyes:

Don't worry, sweetheart. They'll never break us up. :blunt:

Good to know Brucey, good to know;)

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Gee, sorry Bugz. Seems like evertime I speak you have to tell me I'm wrong to do so. Could you maybe post a list of the things I'm allowed to say?

Don't worry Whit, they'll never break us up.:blunt:

I'm just keeping in mind your words of wisdom you offered me in the Bridge thread, remember this?......."Okay, Bugz. Now that we've established that you were going to ask the same thing as Quzah perhaps you'd like to take part in this discussion and respond to something that was said since then. There are, in fact, three posts to choose from.
What's that? No, you'd much rather just attack Quzah, who was having a reasonable conversation with the rest of us? Well gee, thanks for taking the time to add something worthwhile to the thread.
Now that I'm done with the sarcasm, would you please try again without the attack?"

I just thought that maybe you could follow your own advice once in awhile!!
:p

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Bruce, anyone that pays any attention at all knows you got plenty of love to go round. That's why I like to razz you a little. 'Sides we both get ignored around here plenty enough. Might as well BS with each other.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ah Bugz, I'm sorry I didn't realize joking with Bruce was the same as telling somebody they should have died. Oh wait it's not. So it doesn't apply. Anyway, it seems I mispoke again. How's that list coming?

Don't we know it...dirty ol' man.

No time for lists, Whit. I'll just let you know when you've said someting you're not supposed to as it comes up:rolleyes:

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Okie-doke. Just thought it might save time in the long run as you wouldn't have to bitch at me after every post.

Or, if you'd rather, I could just not reply to any of your posts assuming I wasn't referenced in any of them.;)

I'm thinking this may be a pretty quiet place if we're not allowed to say anything that may be deemed 'offensive' to anyone who's here, passing by, reading, or possibly even on the same planet as the Cellar.

(edited after some thought as to how what I've said would be taken)

Dagney

I was talking directly to Whit, not to you, not to the Cellar in general. Now look who's making it "all about you".:rolleyes: (not edited in the least)

LUVBUGZ

Oooh, I feel a lot of love in the room.

NOTICE TO EVERYONE
If I should inadvertently post something that offends your sensibilities, fuck you.
THAT IS ALL :D

Fuck all of you...I'm gonna go grab another beer.