I wouldn't say I mispoke, I just couldn't put into words what I was really trying to say, that's why I put it in quotes, I was trying to say something like kinda killing it, but not really which makes no sense at all. I know the soul wouldn't be killed, but it seems like if your killing the soul's vessel that in some way you would be at least "harming" the soul. That doesn't really sound right either, but if I put it a different way, you might kinda get what I'm trying to say. New version: So, if killing the cow is simply releasing the soul and not "harming" it, then why would it NOT be OK for me to kill a person and say well I was simply liberating their soul?

Hey I really like the "Queen Anal" title, that's the closest I'll ever get to royality, may I use it as my new tag line? Re: mosquito bites......OK, Quzah, no need for hostilities. I was only trying to edify you, not moronize you (don't bother dictionary.com-ing this one I just made it up:biggrin: ). BTY, swollen has two L's:p

Well spoken. That's exactly the point I was attempting to make. If everything has a soul, then the only difference in killing a person versus a mosquito is the value attached to the person versus the value attached to the mosquito.

Thus, if I don't value you at all, it there should be no penalty for me killing you. I mean really, that's exactly what people do every day. You assign a lesser value to indirectly killing a ___ and eating its 'product' than you do 'suffering' the inconvenience of going without.

Quzah.

      Because it's illegal ya big silly. Actually, it's illegal to kill the cow too except in specific circumstances.
      In the mosquito example, the mesquito's family won't hunt your ass down and kill you in return. A little fact of life now boy and girl, we are animals. We're just on top of the food chain. We eat, we shit, and we die, just like they do. You're both so busy being holier-than-thou that you forget the only reason we don't live in caves and hide from carnivors is we got smart enough to kill their asses. What's more, we will continue to do so, as a part of nature. Not because we are better than them, as your arrogant asses suggest, but because we are them. We just kill better.
      This goes up too, and includes killing our own when they don't follow pack rules. So go ahead. Kill someone to prove it's no different. See ya on deathrow.

Thanks for reminding me that I need to type as if I'm speaking to the narrow-minded masses. Let me state this slowly and plainly so you can understand, since you've obviously missed the vein of this thread.

You can have it one of two ways, not both.

First, the "soul" view of things, as it's been discussed in this thread.

1) We are assuming or granting all things souls.
2) We were speaking of reincarnation, in that, you may possibly be coming back as anything.
3) We've determined that the only difference in killing a human as opposed to any other animal is the personal value placed on it.

Now, if that is given, then it would be stupid to kill anything, since they would all have the same value. Killing a mosquito would be like killing your brother.

You can modify this slightly, and give everything a soul, but give them different "levels" of souls. Thus, when you reincarnate, you either move up a level or down. Here again it would seem foolish to go around killing things, since this may affect how your soul evolves.

You can modify this even more, and remove souls from everything except humans. In which case, what does it matter if I go and kill your dog? I'll pay you the $300 bucks he cost and we'll call it even. I mean, it's just a soul-less piece of flesh. I was hungry. No big loss. And hell, if it was a pound-puppy, you made a few bucks off my meal.

You can modify this more, and remove souls from humans, in which case we're just "smart animals". In which case, who gives a shit what I kill. They're all equal. Seriously, if we're all just animals, then what of "morality"? There is no point, since we're all just beasts. It's survival of the fittest. Thus, if I have better firepower, I can simply terminate all of you and it'll make me leader of the pack, if I so choose to leave any of you alive.

Basicly we as people just pick whatever one we we think fits best. Take your pick.

Quzah.

Fuckin' A Whit, I thought we were past the name calling and all the other BS you and others have been on my ass about. Here I am replying to your post, clarifying my point for you in a civil, calm manner, not "attacking" in any way and look at the response I get from *you*. You condescendingly refer to me as a "girl", which I am not, I'm probably older that you are. Trying to enlighten me with the revelation that "we" are animals too, when I have made this point numerously in the Big Pig abortion. You call me an "arrogant ass", which I might point out is completely uncalled for and IS most definitely beyond any reasonable doubt a PERSONAL ATTACK on me. And talk about "holier-than-thou", just because we (you and I) have a slightly differing view on a issue, which I thought we were disscussing in an adult manner, you now seem to be recanting your earlier claim that *you *, so rightous and moral, believing that all humans deserve the right to live, who would NEVER suggest that I deserve to die on a collapsing bridge would now find glee in me being sent to DEATHrow for simply disagreeing with your ideas on a particular issue. Did you just have another long, stressful day at work or are your true colors just oozing out onto the page:confused: I do believe you have taken my example and twisted it to what you wish I meant so that you could then use it to justify your rude behavior towards me. I was simply throwing the thought out there in an attempt to convey my idea that...assuming both cow and human have a soul (which was the premise of this discussion), and in killing either of them the soul is neither harmed nor killed, but rather simply liberated it from it's earthly vessel (which was your idea, not mine), then how is killing the cow any different from killing the human? I'm not saying it is or isn't, I'm simply posing the question? Relax Whit, calm down and take a deep breath. No one is attacking you, I'm trying to help you, you seem to be so set in your ideas that you are unwilling to accept that some else views things differently than you do. I mean isn't that the whole point of a public forum? To maybe look at things in a different way than you have been. Everyone has a right to their opinion and were are all there to discuss, debate, maybe learn something, or to think about things in a way we have never thought to view them before.

Hey Quzah, you never said if it was OK for me to use the "Queen Anal" thing? I really like it, it fits me perfectly;)

Whatever floats your boat. Or to be on topic, whatever frees your soul. :blunt:

Quzah.

Because, most people like humans more than they like cows. They've designed their laws and morality appropriately.

Yeah, I'd say you misspoke.

      Quzah, first off you put forth this notion. Nobody except Bugz actually excepted it. Hasn't really been discussed. Sorry, if you didn't read the thread.
      Also, one more time, I'm fine with the idea of eating the cow that housed my brothers soul. I've already said I don't see where that would matter. It's you that decided that this would be a problem. That's fine if it's a problem for you, but I don't care. You seem to think you made a perfect point here but ya didn't. You see, if someone did believe in reincarnation then, would likely believe that person is meant to live as a cow, and even die as one. Before you bring up the Hindu's not eating cows for an example you need to look in to it, there's more to it than that. End of story. It was my brothers turn to develop the steak on mytable and I'll enjoy it and appreciate him for it.

      Bugz, as far as the "arrogant ass" and "girl" thing go, I also forgot you are the only one allowed to joke with others. I was actually chuckling after I wrote that. But you what? you can take it as an attack. You take being asked how the weather is as an attack. Whatever. I've tried to be cool with you Bugz, I really have. Seems to me that you can't be joked with and you can't discuss opinions without getting upset. See, I don't care though. Get upset, but try to make a valid point once in a while. Let's see what you've had to say today...       Then why didn't you listen to yourself?
      Hmmm, now we have more of the "I've been responded too, I'm under attack!" stuff we all expect out of all your posts...       Actually, I suggested you would be sent to deathrow for killing a human being, sorry if you didn't read you own post.
      Sigh, have you ever read a post before responding? Clearly not this time. Here, I'll repost it for ya so you don't have to go back.       So you see, I'm suggesting the difference is that you will go to deathrow. Lot's of luck actually reading this post this time.
      By the by, you have changed my opinions. I really hadn't thought about it before, but you and Quzah have convinced me that eating animals is natural and right. It should be done, I am now convinced. So thanks.

Quzah, are you saying that without souls, there is no morality?

Say what you will juju, but do not believe I misspoke, I was simply conveying my idea.

Well Whit if what you wrote was humor, I'm sorry that I didn't find it funny. So now I can't read or communitcate, great. I never said I fully except Quzah's notions, but at least I can discuss them without resorting to your level. As I've said before I eat meat too, so it's not like I'm defending Quzah and his vegan view of things, but I'm simply writing out my thoughts and in doing so am able to see where my own logic has flaws. At least I can accept that my thinking isn't perfect and continue discussing issues to try and mold my ideas, where as you are set in your ideas and are unwilling to even consider that they may be flawed as well. BTY, I'm glad I have solidified your idea that eating animals is natural and right. That's what were all here for, to put our views to the test and decide through discussion and communication whether we still believe in them or if we have decided to alter them a bit after seeing what others ideas are and the basis for their differing views.

I just want to say, once again, that everyone needs to listen to The Arrogant Worms' "Carrot Juice is Murder", and get a little perspective. Then, afterward, eat whatever the hell you want and let everyone else eat what they want.

How do we know that vegetables don't have feelings? What about all that stuff about plants having an energy field, and responding to music, and kind words?

Maybe we should all just starve and die in moral perfection

Is eating animals natural and right? IMO probably not, and certainly not for me personally. (Although I recently dated a guy who is allergic to beans and had to chuckle at the irony of that.)

Is it necessary? Not at all to the extent that it's done.

Do one's eating habits depend simply on the value they attribute to other lifeforms? Abso-fucking-lutely.

It is all about values. People eat meat because they like it and they value their desire for over the life of the animal. That's pretty much the conclusion that this thread came to.

merriam-webster.com defines misspoke as:<blockquote><i> to express (oneself) imperfectly or incorrectly</i></blockquote>Even you agreed that what you actually said makes no sense and is not what you meant. Given the mind-numbing train of thought you subjected us to when trying to think through your own words, I think it's pretty safe to say you misspoke.

It's okay, though. I personally do it all the time.

Yeah god forbid I actaully stick to my own theory in a single thread. Perhaps I should just change my mind with every post. I mean really, why bother thinking about any ideas over any length of time? Let's all just completely change our train of thought from post to post. That way no one will have a clue as to what the fuck is going on.

Quzah.

So eat fruit. Problem solved. Gee that was tough.

Quzah.

Well at least some one other than myself knows what the fuck is happening in this thread.

Quzah.

Most of the animals we eat would not exist in the first place if we didn't want to eat them.;)

So everything is better of existing than to have never been created? I'm afraid I must disagree.

Quzah.

What, fruit isn't a part of plants? What if that is the moral equivalent of just eating a little bit of the cow and letting it go on living as an amputee?

In case it isn't clear, I'm not taking this thread at all seriously. If I was, I would say something in agreement with the omnivore thing, and that soul doesn't enter into the whole thing. Humans are animals. I think we prove that every day. Animals have to eat. If animals have souls, then they go where they are supposed to and do what they should, whether we eat them, they die of old age, or end up sticking out of the grille of a Buick.

We as humans are supposed to be above animals, because we are rational beings...hah! War is rational? Mass consumption of natural resources while spewing pollution into our own environment is rational? I could go on, but why? We aren't even as smart *as* most animals when it comes to trying to live in balance with our world, and they eat each other all the time.

Therefore, since animals are smarter than I am anyway, who am I to try and behave differently? (back to not taking it seriously again).

Yeah...isn't eating fruit the equivalent of stealing a child?

Oh...and, before I forget...Quzah, thanks for the response redolent of sarcasm, and containing the obvious inference that you are intellectually and morally superior to the rest of us. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say that being put in our places by you is both entertaining AND enlightening! :D

This is gonna be fun!

I was told by a very smart anthropologist professor that fruit co-evolved with primates as a seed-dispersal mechanism. Plants help us, we help them, and everybody's happy.

Thank you for the def. juju, it appears I misspoke after all:)

This is a good point, juju. I agree.:)

So, as man evolved in harmony with nature, before becoming civilized, we became carnivorous, and helped nature by thinning the herd.

Now that we are no longer in ecological balance with the planet, we must develop and maintain our own herds, much as we must plant our own orchards and fields of vegetables.

Again, a sort of harmony, no?

Huh??:confused:

I think Quzah is saying that perhaps never having been born at all is preferable to having been born and subsequently eaten.

Oh, "better OFF existing".
Naw, we'll have to disagree on that. I think that cow is content with a couple years since it's not cognizent of any alternatives.

BTW Els, did you know 150 odd posts back there's a bird on your head?;)

And yet, you could inflict enough pain on someone for them to wish they'd never been born. At which point in time, in their mind, it would be better to have never been born.

Quzah.

That only applies to people. If cows think that way, they've never told me.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For the record Quzah, a couple of pages back my point was that you had made the list for all of us. You were the only one that was in on that idea, so it shouldn't have made the list.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To catch up now. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I agree with the statement as it stands, but are you suggesting that the cows are being put through that level of torment?

That's absurd. You're telling me you can't imagine an animal in so much pain that it would rather not be alive? Yes, this is slightly different than "not being born", but the end result is the same.

I didn't say they're being tormented. However, since you mention it; actually it's not worth the trouble. You're kidding yourself if you think slaughter houses and farms care that their animals are "happy".

The both of you are so intentionaly closed minded it's absurd. You justify whatever you need to. I really don't care.

Quzah.

Yup, and it is a meat-eating bird at that...

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dude, first off, we've been no more insulting to you than you have been to us. That's the norm for the cellar. You've been here long enough to know that and deal with it. It's late so I'm just gong to assume you're tired.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now, no you didn't say tormented. You did suggested that they would "have enough pain inflicted to wish they'd never been born." I didn't say slaughter houses were happy places. I just don't think they take the time and effort to inflict the kind of pain you're talking about. It's much easier to kill an animal quickly and painlessly. Especially when they are as big as a cow.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; By the by, I lived by a dairy as a child, the man that owned the place made a point of keeping the cattle healthy with plenty of pature to roam and food to eat. What more does a cow need to be happy? Oh yeah, they had a couple of places to go for shelter against inclement weather, though they never did, not even in a hail storm. They really did seem, well content.

Closed mind only to your fantasy. Reality is always considered. You keep trying to convince me 1+1=3, and it's just not so.:)

I guess, as has been said here many times, it's all speculation. I myself don't have any solid beliefs about whether humans or other animals (or plants for that matter) have souls. I WANT to believe, though. ;)

I eat what I need to survive. If plants have souls, then I am very sorry. I'm not going to curl up and die because because plants have souls. (And I don't know about that fruitarian business, maybe I'll read up on it.)

And a lot of people will not stop eating meat on the speculation that animals might have souls.

I believe that I keep my soul healthy by feeding it with the souls of others.

Ah Ha! I knew it. UT has stolen our souls.
Did they taste like chicken?:confused:

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I just wanted to say that I put this sig line up before this discussion floated anywhere near souls...

Quzah saidWhat I'm telling you is I can imagine an animal in so much pain they would rather not be. The concept of alive and dead means nothing to them. All they know is being eaten or not being eaten.
When a lion chases the herd, they all try to avoid him. But once the lion brings one down, what does the rest of the herd do? They stop, watch for a minute to make sure the lion is done chasing, then business as usual. They're not being eaten so they eat. They don't have a memorial service for their fallen comrade.
They really don't care about anything but the moment. There is no past or future in their conscious thought. They have memory of routes and food sources but you'll never convince me they can't wait to get back to XYZ because it was pretty there.
Domestic animals don't even have the lion to keep them on their toes.
The basic domestic cow is never threatened or in real danger short of lightning or a motor vehicle and they aren't aware of that till it's too late. The lead pretty bucolic lives until we eat them.

What are you fucking stupid all of this sudden? They have no concept of death and dying? Get real. That's got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Animals have no concept of dying... You truely boggle the mind.

So much for that whole survival instinct theory huh?

Give me a hit of whatever it is you're smoking.


Quzah.

I don't agree with you here, Bruce. I have seen video of lions trying to kill a baby elephant and the entire elephant herd forms a circle around the baby in an attempt to prevent the lions from killing it. I've also seen where a mother elk/caribou/moose will defend her young from predators by trying to gore them and kick them. Also, if a member of a wolf pack is killed or dies the rest of the pack is very agitated, revisits the dead body, and mourns their loss by howling. As far as domestic animals, one of my cats sat meowing on the sidewalk where one of her adult daughters was hit by a car and lay dying. I was gone at the time and found her doing this when I got home several hours later. My neighbors saw her much earlier in the morning doing the same thing. After I removed her lifeless body, the mama kitty still stayed at the sidewalk looking for her daughter. I don't know if you'd call this a memorial service, but she sure seemed sad and upset that her daughter was killed. I think you're wrong in saying that animals don't care what happens to one of their own. I think they do care, but in some instances they are helpless in trying to defend against predator attacks.

Gosh 'o golly, how am I to respond to such an eloquent post. :haha:

Bugz, yes some animals stand and fight especially mothers defending there young. I know elephants mourn and probably primates. I simplified it to the type of animals we domesticate and raise for food.

I think we should just sum it up succinctly and all of us admit that we're fucking stupid.

That oughta settle the discussion once and for all...

You simplified it because you don't want to give admirable traits to your food. It's ok, I know you won't admit there's more to your food than you think there is. You're stubborn and in denial, that's fine. Now that we've crossed that bridge, let's move along shall we? But please, since you're the one who mentioned "reality", try to join the rest of us, ok?


Quzah.

Next time I eat a cow I'll wonder if it pondered its navel, its mortality and other "admirable" traits.:D


Oh, and Els. I'm not fuckin' stupid. I'm not fuckin' anybody.:p

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; We're all glad to know you take a break from it to post Bruce.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You know, I was just sitting here, thinking how serene and noble deer are. The mothers protecting the young the adult males protecting the group, even with their own lives at times. And so graceful, yet powerful. They taste great too. Deer chili freakin' rocks.

You misunderstand, Whit. I don't do it, I just talk about it. ;)
Enjoy your chili.

And the truth reveals it's ugly head. Bruce isn't *really* a dirty old man, he just plays one in the Cellar:p

It's not truths, it's my ugly head that slows me down. :3eye:

Which "head"?:p

I AM THE RESORECTOUR (sp?)!!!

I'm pretty sure I fucked that up.

Why?:rolleyes: